EVA1 vs Terra 4k or Mavo vs FS5 II - decisions!

[Oliver Daniel]

On 7/18/2018 at 9:31 AM, IronFilm said:

The FS700 4K 120fps (or 2K 240fps) is in a totally different world.

The FS700 can just look beautiful: 

 

 

Wow the FS700 is kicking ass here! (with a highly skilled operator). 

On 7/18/2018 at 8:59 AM, nigelbb said:

It depends what your requirements are. The king for cheap HFR is the Sony RX100 V. You can record 1920x1080 120fps all day or 4-7 second bursts at 240fps.

I'd cope with just the GH5 however my requirement is really thick, chunky files for HFR - which the small little Sony's can't get close to. 

On 7/18/2018 at 6:39 PM, Zak Forsman said:

 

EVA1 has a 1.5x crop Super35 sensor and does not crop or window up to 120fps in full DCI 2K (not just HD), but does crop to m43 for 240fps. it also will shoot 2K 10-bit up to 120fps, but 8-bit for 240fps.

Thank you for clarifying! Shame it crops to m43 at 240fps, although not a dealbreaker as a lot of cameras do that anyway. 

[Oliver Daniel]

On 7/18/2018 at 10:05 PM, wolf33d said:

No hesitation for me the FS5 choice. 

Great slowmo. Prores Raw is sick. Best B and C cam with the incoming a7siii with great AF for gimbal shots. 

 

I had an underwhelming experience with the original FS5, minus some brilliant shots I did accomplish with it. Maybe I didn't get the best out of the Atomos linkage. I juts found teh GH5 experience so unbelievably liberating. 

Totally with you on the gimbal AF for Sony cams, yet I do love the GH5 10 bit and video centric design. @Sage Emotive Alexa LUT makes it sing! But that AF on Sony.... damn you all!

Logically my best bet would be the EVA1, although I'd secretly like to get my hands on the Mavo! I have to make the right business decision. I've f***ed up on gear choices too many times!!

Essentially, the A-cam must:

• Be compact and lightweight (I'm very handheld, my back needs light). 
• Have very thick quality HFR (as it will be used a lot for the Chromaflex green screen). 
• Have that client sex appeal (give these brand video guys a high end impression, it does suck, but it works!)
• Have seamless integration with B and C cams (same workflow, brand, lenses etc). 

I'm in no rush and have time to monitor these options, as it has to be the right decision that will last years of service (or my finance manager will kill me). 

Also - Canon, Arri and RED are not an option. Too much £ and hassle. 

[IronFilm]

59 minutes ago, Oliver Daniel said:

• Be compact and lightweight (I'm very handheld, my back needs light). 

Can your style of productions be suitable for an easyrig?

As if you can use an easyrig then you could even use say a beefy F5 (well I say "beefy", but it is actually quite "lightweight" for a cinema camera) and your back can be fine with hours of handheld shooting. 

1 hour ago, Oliver Daniel said:

I've f***ed up on gear choices too many times!!

What mistakes have you personally made in the past?
Often you can learn from your past to guide your future. 

 

1 hour ago, Oliver Daniel said:

•  Have very thick quality HFR (as it will be used a lot for the Chromaflex green screen). 

Got plenty of lights then? As you need to use a fast shutter for HFR!
And a more capable low light camera wouldn't be bad either. 

 

[webrunner5]

I think you are in a near impossible situation to be honest. None of the cameras you mention are great in all of your needs.

The EVA1, GH5, neither have good AF. So your Gimbal stuff is sort of iffy. But they can do your HFR pretty well. Good enough resolution with a good enough Codec on both.

I just don't see how the Kinefinity could work at all. And to what camera to use as a B would either. Just because 4k one is using the same sensor as the GH5 does not mean the Color Science will be close. I really doubt this new P4K is going to match those two cameras having the same sensor either, you know it won't or having good AF at all. The Pk4 on paper might be better being the A Cam for a Cine Look!

And the Sony FS5 mk II and the a7 mk III to me has the best combo, but you don't seem to be too hot on a FS5. The FS5 mk II is not that much different for the original. But they can both focus well, and have some really good tricks between them. And the new Color Science on the a7 mk III is pretty impressive I think.

And then there is Canon. Both C100's, C200 lack a broadcast middle codec. Forced to shoot raw kind of sucks. But is overcame if you buy an external recorder. C300 no DPAF, C300 mk II too dam expensive yet. Canon 5D mk IV is expensive, and kind of suck be honest for the video part of it in 4K crop wise. 120 full HD on the C200 for HFR  not shabby. But they both have DPAF so that is a hell of a plus, plus great color science.

Not too sure the hate towards a Canon combo. Heck of a lot of stuff has been, and is being done with them. But you are right, the 5D mk IV would not be a dream camera of mine.

[Trek of Joy]

If reliable AF is a must have, it seem like Canon or Sony is your only choice. 

FS5mk2 as the A-cam and various a7's for B-cam and gimbal/stills work seems to fit the bill well. For AF needs with gimbals and high IQ stills - the a73 is pretty tough to beat. The new FS5 seems to cover the rest of your needs. Sony has really upped its game with all of the lenses released over the last couple years. Congrats on the shifting/expanding business.

Cheers

Chris

[mercer]

I’m not going to even pretend to know what it’s like to shoot or even choose to shoot with a Cine camera but your choices only leave you with two options, IMO.

I know what I would choose of these two, but everyone has different needs... 

It’s quite simple really... it’s the Panasonic route with the EVA1 and GH5/s. 

Or

The C200 and 1DX Mark II. Other than media costs, the C200 gives you the juiciest files in camera with Raw video and DPAF. And then for gimbal work you have the 1DXii. I know you have stated it’s a no go due to HFR desires from your client but you are left in a sticky situation here and it seems like the type of scenario where one needs to educate the client of what is possible and available. The time (money) saved with the Canon with AF and color science should negate their desire for a little slower motion... which can be achieved in post. With that being said, I don’t want to beat a dead horse so if you aren’t interested in that at all then I apologize for furthering the discussion...

So it seems the EVA1 makes the most sense for you. The FS5 could work but then you’d need the external monitor/recorder solution to get the beefier codecs. And the B-Cam wouldn’t meet broadcast standards if your work requires it. And if it does, it seems an Ursa Pro and P4K is your best option, but you’ll lose any real AF possibilities.

Honestly, there are no options to meet your needs, so maybe you should just rent based on the job. Maybe in some circumstances you can get by with the EVA1 and others a C200 would work better. It seems like you are getting to a higher production level and renting may be the most cost effective and profitable solution. 

To add, look what MTS Films are doing. I follow them on IG, so obviously I don’t know the ins and outs of their business but it seems like they have a GH5 package and an Ursa package and perhaps rent if they need a Red or an Alexa or other camera.

[webrunner5]

I think this sort of sums up the new Sony FD5 mk II.

"There has been a lot of people that seem unhappy with the FS5 II. I think many people want a Sony Venice for the price of an FS5. Let’s be realistic, that isn’t going to happen. 10 bit recording in UHD would be nice, but that would need higher bit rates to avoid motion artefacts which would then need faster and more expensive media. If you want higher image quality in UHD or 4K DCI do consider an Atomos recorder and the new ProRes Raw codec. The files are barely any bigger than ProRes HQ, but offer 12 bit quality."

from this article.

http://www.xdcam-user.com/2018/04/pxw-fs5-ii-secret-sauce-and-venice-colour-science/

But the HFR is not too shabby with a external recorder.. But it is not too shabby internal for short bursts. Sort of a modern FS700 for IronFilm!

external recording to a compatible recorder:

120fps (at 60Hz mode, 100fps at 50Hz mode) in 4K (4096 x 2160) RAW in a 4-second burst or

Continuous 240fps (at 60Hz mode, 200fps at 50Hz mode) in 2K (2048×1080) RAW or

Continuous 4K 60fps (59.94fps, 50fps at 50Hz mode) RAW output to a compatible external recorder.

internal recording to SD cards:

4K internal recording

Full HD 10bit 4:2:2 @ up to 240 fps of 8-second cache recording.

Continuous recording of up to 120fps in Full HD.

[maxmizer]

I think, that the choice should be made thinking about how many people are behind the camera, if one is alone there are not many choices ...

[Sage]

On 7/20/2018 at 6:37 AM, Oliver Daniel said:

I had an underwhelming experience with the original FS5, minus some brilliant shots I did accomplish with it. Maybe I didn't get the best out of the Atomos linkage. I juts found teh GH5 experience so unbelievably liberating. 

Totally with you on the gimbal AF for Sony cams, yet I do love the GH5 10 bit and video centric design. @Sage Emotive Alexa LUT makes it sing! But that AF on Sony.... damn you all!

Thanks Oliver! With VLog, EVA1 does have an inherent value

[Oliver Daniel]

On 7/20/2018 at 12:38 PM, IronFilm said:

Can your style of productions be suitable for an easyrig?

As if you can use an easyrig then you could even use say a beefy F5 (well I say "beefy", but it is actually quite "lightweight" for a cinema camera) and your back can be fine with hours of handheld shooting. 

What mistakes have you personally made in the past?
Often you can learn from your past to guide your future. 

 

Got plenty of lights then? As you need to use a fast shutter for HFR!
And a more capable low light camera wouldn't be bad either. 

 

 

Easyrig... possibly. Think I'll need it at some point. 

Mistakes... buying gear that I don't use. Also being indecisive about my cameras. 

I have loads of lighting. Probably too much. 

 

On 7/20/2018 at 7:47 PM, webrunner5 said:

I think this sort of sums up the new Sony FD5 mk II.

"There has been a lot of people that seem unhappy with the FS5 II. I think many people want a Sony Venice for the price of an FS5. Let’s be realistic, that isn’t going to happen. 10 bit recording in UHD would be nice, but that would need higher bit rates to avoid motion artefacts which would then need faster and more expensive media. If you want higher image quality in UHD or 4K DCI do consider an Atomos recorder and the new ProRes Raw codec. The files are barely any bigger than ProRes HQ, but offer 12 bit quality."

 

 

I may look at this again. Very curious about the new A7SIII. That could be a decisive point. 

 

On 7/20/2018 at 7:03 PM, mercer said:

It’s quite simple really... it’s the Panasonic route with the EVA1 and GH5/s. 

Or

The C200 and 1DX Mark II. Other than media costs, the C200 gives you the juiciest files in camera with Raw video and DPAF. And then for gimbal work you have the 1DXii.

 

EVA1 is in pole position (given my VLOG workflow) at the moment, but there's no massive rush. I'm way more experienced with Sony, up to F55, so the door is always open.

Canon would be a no-brainer if only they took more features out of their ass and put it in their cameras, such as decent codecs and HFR. They are a very frustrating company!! 

[mercer]

26 minutes ago, Oliver Daniel said:

 

Easyrig... possibly. Think I'll need it at some point. 

Mistakes... buying gear that I don't use. Also being indecisive about my cameras. 

I have loads of lighting. Probably too much. 

 

 

I may look at this again. Very curious about the new A7SIII. That could be a decisive point. 

 

 

EVA1 is in pole position (given my VLOG workflow) at the moment, but there's no massive rush. I'm way more experienced with Sony, up to F55, so the door is always open.

Canon would be a no-brainer if only they took more features out of their ass and put it in their cameras, such as decent codecs and HFR. They are a very frustrating company!! 

It seems the EVA1 is really the only choice if you need the 240fps.

As far as Canon goes... yeah I guess... the RawLite out of the C200 edits natively in both FCPX and Resolve. Sure it eats data, but I am seeing more and more shooters using the RawLite for wedding videos and they go through way more footage than you probably will... plus I believe you can use CFast2 to SSD adapters... or I vaguely remember reading that somewhere?

And also remember that a lot of reviews have stated that the 8 bit 4K Canon Log files have more latitude in post than the 10bit files from the GH5.

Anyway my point is that don’t disregard the C200 quite yet... I think you’ll find it offers a lot of what you want/need... except for the 240p... but almost no camera has that, so it’s kind of a bottleneck for your choices. 

Last thing about the C200 and then I’ll stop... a feature that goes unmentioned is that it exports 10bit 2K from it SDI port. So with an external recorder you can get some juicy 2K ProRes with it.

Okay, I’m done. Good luck with whatever you choose. 

[anonim]

If Oliver buy C200, I'd be so glad... mostly because of Mercer

I don't know if some Canon's agent checks this forum, but if I'd been in Canon marketing army (and especially in 8-bit-log-4K sub unit), I would certainly hire Mercer... But contrary, in the same fantastic scenario, if I'm Mercer, I would be afraid of Panasonic's secret police fake-10bit revenge

[Oliver Daniel]

1 hour ago, mercer said:

It seems the EVA1 is really the only choice if you need the 240fps.

As far as Canon goes... yeah I guess... the RawLite out of the C200 edits natively in both FCPX and Resolve. Sure it eats data, but I am seeing more and more shooters using the RawLite for wedding videos and they go through way more footage than you probably will... plus I believe you can use CFast2 to SSD adapters... or I vaguely remember reading that somewhere?

And also remember that a lot of reviews have stated that the 8 bit 4K Canon Log files have more latitude in post than the 10bit files from the GH5.

Anyway my point is that don’t disregard the C200 quite yet... I think you’ll find it offers a lot of what you want/need... except for the 240p... but almost no camera has that, so it’s kind of a bottleneck for your choices. 

Last thing about the C200 and then I’ll stop... a feature that goes unmentioned is that it exports 10bit 2K from it SDI port. So with an external recorder you can get some juicy 2K ProRes with it.

Okay, I’m done. Good luck with whatever you choose. 

I'm with you on the C200, it seems like a great camera, but it lacks that essential feature that I'm looking for:

Solid, beefy, thick HFR up to 240p that won't fall apart in post. 

The C200 simply doesn't have it, and if it did, I'm a customer! 

[IronFilm]

2 hours ago, Oliver Daniel said:

I have loads of lighting. Probably too much. 

No such thing!

Just become a gaffer instead ?

Not a bad idea really. 

 

2 hours ago, Oliver Daniel said:

Canon would be a no-brainer if only they took more features out of their ass and put it in their cameras, such as decent codecs and HFR. They are a very frustrating company!! 

Canon isn't a frustrating company at all if you expect them to disappoint. 

 

2 hours ago, mercer said:

It seems the EVA1 is really the only choice if you need the 240fps.

Or Terra 4K

Or Kinefinity Mavo

Or Z Cam E2 

Or a secondhand FS700 / FS7 / F5

[Django]

4 hours ago, Oliver Daniel said:

I'm with you on the C200, it seems like a great camera, but it lacks that essential feature that I'm looking for:

Solid, beefy, thick HFR up to 240p that won't fall apart in post. 

The C200 simply doesn't have it, and if it did, I'm a customer! 

FS5 with slow-mo upgrade / FS5 mk2 + Shogun Inferno : 240fps continuous raw 2K:

or EVA1 if you can deal with the m43 crop:

 

[webrunner5]

Sort of like watching grass grow!

[Oliver Daniel]

Well so far, this is how the race is going:

1. Panasonic EVA1 + GH5's. 

2. FS5 mk II + (A7S-III) + A7

3. Kinefinity Terra 4k + not sure. 

4. RED Monstro + RED Gemini + Arri Alexa Mini + Varicam 35 + Sony Venice + GoPro. 

5. Cinemartin Fran + dishwasher. 

[IronFilm]

26 minutes ago, Oliver Daniel said:

3. Kinefinity Terra 4k + not sure. 

 

Terra + BMPCC4K?

[Oliver Daniel]

4 hours ago, IronFilm said:

Terra + BMPCC4K?

I pre-ordered a BMPCC 4k that minute it was announced, too good to miss! 

[Oliver Daniel]

On 7/25/2018 at 11:47 AM, IronFilm said:

Terra + BMPCC4K?

Righty roo. 

I think I've made my choice. 

After comparing the feature sets of every setup, plus my very own emotive desires to image, I'm going with:

• Sony FS5 II with Atomos Sumo 19 (my director partner wants the monitor big ass!) 
• Sony A7 III (and Sony A7S III when announced) as B and C cameras, with A7 III for stills. 
• Keep A6500 and possibly upgrade to A6700 if it's worthwhile (personal carry camera, bits and pieces). 

The thing that tipped it for me was: 

• Vast experience of Sony cameras, since 2012. 
• Venice colour science on FS5 II is amazing! This bypassed me til now. 
• Solid Gimbal AF.
• Low light. 
• Much better full frame stills ability. 
• Slog workflow (I love Slog). 
• E-mount is hugely flexible. 
• FS5 II can fit on DJI Ronin S and my Edelkrone Motion kit for the odd special shot (should i actually buy it, hmmm). 
• HFR does not crop. 
• 4k 120fps. 
• Variable ND filter on FS5 II. 
• Can get FS5II for a sweet £3.5k.