EVA1 vs Terra 4k or Mavo vs FS5 II - decisions!

[webrunner5]

Yeah with that combo you can even go the Sony A7s mk III route if it is a worthy camera. Good move I think. Sony stuff is just to hard to pass up on as of now.

[newfoundmass]

I don't know, I've really been blown away by the EVA1 footage I've seen. And I really do think the GH5 and GH5S will give you greater flexibility than the a6500 and A7iii. I can see why the Sony is tempting, but overall the Panasonic package you talked about is stronger I think. There are simply things you can't do with the a6500 and A7iii that the GH5 combo can, whereas the only things they have over the GH5 combo is better auto focus and low light. 

[jonpais]

Few things in photography are as important as the ability to gather light and focus. 

Reliable AF-C is huge, and the a7 III has it in spades. Particularly useful for shooting at wide apertures and gimbal work. And unlike some other manufacturers’ implementation, transitions are not so jarring as to be all but unusable. 

Low light as well - the Sony a7 III absolutely crushes the GH5.

Dynamic range? Much greater with the a7 III - the GH5 maxes out at around 10 stops. 

Beautiful FF look without BS adapters? Sony.

Is manual focus your bag? Focus peaking is a dream on the Sony, even in difficult lighting and in spite of the lo-rez LCD: with the GH5, you  really need an external monitor for gauging correct focus. And unlike the GH5, focus magnification works even while recording on the a7 III.

The menu system’s a draw since practically every menu item on the Sony can now be assigned to a button or dial; and if that’s not enough, you can create your own My Menu.

Battery life is also no longer an issue with Sony. Too bad Fuji and others require bulky $350 power solutions that make use with a cage or gimbal problematic. And because that battery grip is proprietary, you’ve just thrown your hard earned cash out the window when you upgrade!

 

[mercer]

@jonpais did you twitch a little bit as you wrote that? ?

[jonpais]

@mercer I forgot to mention that even with some gimbals that have focus solutions for a select few cameras, the focusing is stepped, meaning not smooth. And in the case of Panasonic, it is sometimes  restricted to Panasonic lenses, which I rarely use anymore.

And speaking of lenses, just like Fuji, Sony now offers a range of reasonably fast, optically outstanding lenses in the focal lengths I use most - meaning I no longer have to mix and match lenses from a half dozen different manufacturers, each with radically different mechanical properties and color characteristics. And for those who appreciate the very best in mechanical lenses, Voigtlander is stepping up its production of E mount glass.

[IronFilm]

12 hours ago, Oliver Daniel said:

Righty roo. 

I made the BMPCC4K + Terra 4K suggestion as there is a theory they share the same sensor, so maybe a better match for A/B Camera? But I dunno, some guess work here. 

 

[IronFilm]

12 hours ago, Oliver Daniel said:

The thing that tipped it for me was: 

All solid reasons, as they're all so good choices that in the end it comes down to fairly subjective reasons at times. 
But I shall be a devil's advocate and give a rebuttal for each:
 

 

12 hours ago, Oliver Daniel said:

•  Vast experience of Sony cameras, since 2012.

Yeah nah, got nothing against that, I'm a bit of a Sony fanboy ish myself :-P 

 

12 hours ago, Oliver Daniel said:

• Venice colour science on FS5 II is amazing! This bypassed me til now. 

Really? I'd read that was claimed by Sony, wasn't sure how much to believe that. 

But is it really true if you're recording FS raw any way?

 

12 hours ago, Oliver Daniel said:

• Solid Gimbal AF.

Tilta Nucleus M is very affordable now. 

12 hours ago, Oliver Daniel said:

•  Low light. 

Panasonic EVA1 / BMPCC4K / GH5S / Terra 4K are all great for low light too. 

12 hours ago, Oliver Daniel said:

•  Much better full frame stills ability. 

Meh. Getting this for video! Not stills. 
And almost all modern stills cameras are "very good" now anyway, we've reached the plateau, it is video we should focus on getting better. 

 

12 hours ago, Oliver Daniel said:

• E-mount is hugely flexible. 

Agreed!
But Micro Four Thirds (Panasonic was dumb not to have an EVA1 MFT!!) and Kinefnity's KineMount are very flexible too. (the Terra/Mavo even has E mount)
 

12 hours ago, Oliver Daniel said:

• HFR does not crop. 

Is true for some of the other cameras as well.

12 hours ago, Oliver Daniel said:

•  4k 120fps. 

And 2K 240fps!
A killer feature, and one reason I'm seriously considering a FS700. (even was bidding on one last night! But lost it ? Bid on a Lectrosonics SRb / 2x SMQV last  night as well, but when it went over US$3K that got too pricey for me as well ? )
 

12 hours ago, Oliver Daniel said:

• Can get FS5II for a sweet £3.5k. 

Certainly its price is appealing, cheaper than the EVA1/UMP/FS7/C200 competition. (of course the FS700 is even more appealing at US$1.5K ish....)

But the big big downside is needing to use a bulky 7" monitor/recorder for 4K 10bit/raw!! A feature all its core competition can do one of internally. 

If only there at least was a 5" monitor/recorder (or even say an Atomos Ninja Star which could handle 4K FS raw, which didn't even have a monitor) then I'd find the FS5/FS700 even more appealing. 

All in all though, we've come to the end and my objections to the FS5 are pretty weak! (biggest downside being needing the external recorder. Oh, and no TC input!)

 

5 hours ago, newfoundmass said:

I don't know, I've really been blown away by the EVA1 footage I've seen. And I really do think the GH5 and GH5S will give you greater flexibility than the a6500 and A7iii. I can see why the Sony is tempting, but overall the Panasonic package you talked about is stronger I think. There are simply things you can't do with the a6500 and A7iii that the GH5 combo can, whereas the only things they have over the GH5 combo is better auto focus and low light. 

This. 

It it not the FS5 which is your weakness here (except for the darn external recorder needed!) but the lack of a very strong B cam alternative to go with it. The a6x00 or a7 series is just nowhere near as appealing to me as a GH5S/GH5/BMPCC4K. 

 

[Geoff CB]

On ‎8‎/‎1‎/‎2018 at 11:19 AM, Oliver Daniel said:

Righty roo. 

I think I've made my choice. 

After comparing the feature sets of every setup, plus my very own emotive desires to image, I'm going with:

• Sony FS5 II with Atomos Sumo 19 (my director partner wants the monitor big ass!) 
• Sony A7 III (and Sony A7S III when announced) as B and C cameras, with A7 III for stills. 
• Keep A6500 and possibly upgrade to A6700 if it's worthwhile (personal carry camera, bits and pieces). 

The thing that tipped it for me was: 

• Vast experience of Sony cameras, since 2012. 
• Venice colour science on FS5 II is amazing! This bypassed me til now. 
• Solid Gimbal AF.
• Low light. 
• Much better full frame stills ability. 
• Slog workflow (I love Slog). 
• E-mount is hugely flexible. 
• FS5 II can fit on DJI Ronin S and my Edelkrone Motion kit for the odd special shot (should i actually buy it, hmmm). 
• HFR does not crop. 
• 4k 120fps. 
• Variable ND filter on FS5 II. 
• Can get FS5II for a sweet £3.5k. 

Don't forget to use Alister Chapman's "venice" LUT if your using the A7 III as a B-cam

[newfoundmass]

16 hours ago, jonpais said:

Few things in photography are as important as the ability to gather light and focus. 

Reliable AF-C is huge, and the a7 III has it in spades. Particularly useful for shooting at wide apertures and gimbal work. And unlike some other manufacturers’ implementation, transitions are not so jarring as to be all but unusable. 

Low light as well - the Sony a7 III absolutely crushes the GH5.

Dynamic range? Much greater with the a7 III - the GH5 maxes out at around 10 stops. 

Beautiful FF look without BS adapters? Sony.

Is manual focus your bag? Focus peaking is a dream on the Sony, even in difficult lighting and in spite of the lo-rez LCD: with the GH5, you  really need an external monitor for gauging correct focus. And unlike the GH5, focus magnification works even while recording on the a7 III.

The menu system’s a draw since practically every menu item on the Sony can now be assigned to a button or dial; and if that’s not enough, you can create your own My Menu.

Battery life is also no longer an issue with Sony. Too bad Fuji and others require bulky $350 power solutions that make use with a cage or gimbal problematic. And because that battery grip is proprietary, you’ve just thrown your hard earned cash out the window when you upgrade!

 

Have you been kidnapped?!? 

Much of that might be true, however 10 bit 4:2:2, 4k 60p (adding the ability to do 4k slow motion with his b and c cams), 6k anamorphic, etc. are all features that the Sony a series simply can't match, whereas many of the Sony benefits can be closely achieved through adapters, etc though obviously not matched. 

The GH5s is a very capable low light camera, and gets very close to full frame with a speedbooster / adapter, which he's going to be using anyway since he wants to use Canon lenses. 

I just think it makes more sense when you're going to be doing a lot of chroma keying, slow motion, and studio work to have b and c cameras that are far superior for that kind of stuff, while also being more than adequate for other jobs (I've used sets of GH5s for live multicam streaming sporting events, and they worked beautifully, especially when not hindered by recording limits when going back to do a cleaner / better final edit.) The weaknesses of the GH5 and GH5S can be dealt with pretty easily, whereas you simply cannot achieve with the a6500 and A7iii several important things you can do with the GH5 series, most of which are so incredibly useful to the type of work he has said he's doing. 

[Oliver Daniel]

On 8/1/2018 at 11:36 PM, newfoundmass said:

I don't know, I've really been blown away by the EVA1 footage I've seen. And I really do think the GH5 and GH5S will give you greater flexibility than the a6500 and A7iii. I can see why the Sony is tempting, but overall the Panasonic package you talked about is stronger I think. There are simply things you can't do with the a6500 and A7iii that the GH5 combo can, whereas the only things they have over the GH5 combo is better auto focus and low light. 

Well I've not decided 100% yet. 

The EVA1 plus GH cameras is a very worthy package indeed. 

My main issue points with the EVA1 is that it's a bit bigger than the FS5 II, more expensive, no EVF, and cropped HFR. It also has significant advantages such as better internal codecs and Dual Native ISO. I just have to weigh up, overall, what's most useful to me so the problems will get out the way and let me shoot. 

On the comparison that suits my business model most, the Sony lineup is edging it. Still yet to rent the EVA1 to decide. 

On 8/2/2018 at 4:26 AM, IronFilm said:

I made the BMPCC4K + Terra 4K suggestion as there is a theory they share the same sensor, so maybe a better match for A/B Camera? But I dunno, some guess work here. 

 

I'll be keeping my ore-order of the Pocket 4k anyway. Just too good not to have  ?

The 4k, non-burst 120fps of the Terra 4k is highly desirable. 

18 hours ago, Geoff CB said:

Don't forget to use Alister Chapman's "venice" LUT if your using the A7 III as a B-cam

Yep, the examples I've seen of Venice colour with the FS5 II shocked me really. Then again, the EVA1 is very strong with it's Varicam colour, and certainly the GH5 is another camera with @Sage insane Alexa conversion. That thing is nuts! 

What it comes down to really is the least headaches possible when running a business which creates extremely varied content in a large variety of situations. One minute, I'm in the woods near dark chasing a monster with a gimbal and LED panel, the next day I'm in a dessert restaurant doing motion slides of food and then i'm filming a music festival with only a camera and one lens, simultaneously capturing very controlled interview setups. 

Given the way things are going, the setups needs to cover every imaginable situation possible and not give me too many headaches!  

[IronFilm]

58 minutes ago, Oliver Daniel said:

The 4k, non-burst 120fps of the Terra 4k is highly desirable. 

Z Cam E2?

59 minutes ago, Oliver Daniel said:

What it comes down to really is the least headaches possible when running a business which creates extremely varied content in a large variety of situations. One minute, I'm in the woods near dark chasing a monster with a gimbal and LED panel, the next day I'm in a dessert restaurant doing motion slides of food and then i'm filming a music festival with only a camera and one lens, simultaneously capturing very controlled interview setups. 

Given the way things are going, the setups needs to cover every imaginable situation possible and not give me too many headaches!  

Go for Sony FS7mk2 (or a bargain mk1 on ebay) or a Panasonic EVA1

As seriously the hassle of the recorder with the FS5mk2 is not worth it, unless you are happy to do a lot more of your work in FHD in years to come. 

 

[newfoundmass]

Honestly, if you were just talking EVA1 vs FS5 mk II I'd probably agree with going with the Sony for most of the reasons you gave. 

But as an overall package, man, I just think you're going to be able to get the most out of the GH5 cameras in more situations than you will with the A7iii and a6500. As someone that has used the GH5 for lots of chroma keying, event coverage, sporting events, documentary, and commercial work, I've been able to do things with it that simply aren't possible with those two cameras. I'd cry if I didn't have my 4k 60p and 10 bit 4:2:2 for a lot of that stuff! 

[jonpais]

@newfoundmass I'd be interested in seeing some of this footage of sporting events, event coverage, documentary and commercial work you've shot that would not have been possible with the a7 III. 

As for 4K 60p 10-bit, the GH5 requires the expensive, obscenely big, heavy, hot, noisy, power-hungry Shogun Inferno.

And I've seen lots of projects shot with all kinds of cameras where 1080 60p was intercut with 4K and it didn't look like garbage - far from it.

[Oliver Daniel]

3 hours ago, IronFilm said:

Z Cam E2?

Go for Sony FS7mk2 (or a bargain mk1 on ebay) or a Panasonic EVA1

As seriously the hassle of the recorder with the FS5mk2 is not worth it, unless you are happy to do a lot more of your work in FHD in years to come. 

 

Z Cam E2. A curious little package but that thing needs time to be "beta tested" first. 

With the Sony, you may of missed the point where I said the Atomos Sumo 19 is required. 90% of the time, the A-cam will be hooked up to a large monitor for client and Director viewing. So recording externally isn't a problem. As part of the puzzle, the Sumo 19 is essential. 

I've not ignored the fact the EVA1 smashes the FS5 II for recording internally (the FS5II is disappointing here), and with the the GH5 you've got a pair of monsters. 

BUT... the Sony mirrorless cameras with PDAF, low light, better stills and full frame aesthetic (that I personally love) cannot be ignored. 

AND THEN... the emotive part of me wants a Terra or Mavo plus the BMPCC 4k as B-cam. I think functionally within my business, that may not work. 

I now have 2 weeks to place an order...... 

1 hour ago, newfoundmass said:

Honestly, if you were just talking EVA1 vs FS5 mk II I'd probably agree with going with the Sony for most of the reasons you gave. 

But as an overall package, man, I just think you're going to be able to get the most out of the GH5 cameras in more situations than you will with the A7iii and a6500. As someone that has used the GH5 for lots of chroma keying, event coverage, sporting events, documentary, and commercial work, I've been able to do things with it that simply aren't possible with those two cameras. I'd cry if I didn't have my 4k 60p and 10 bit 4:2:2 for a lot of that stuff! 

I wouldn't use the A6500 for the main body of work, only as a carry round camera. I have one. 

Indeed I love my GH5 10bit, I do. This is why the choice is not easy at all. 

[Sage]

@Oliver Daniel For an idea of how current EC works with the EVA, here are a couple of tests images (from Slashcam and Best Film & Video):

Raw VLog

With Emotive Color

 

EVA1 - Vlog

EVA1 - Emotive Color

 

AMIRA - LogC

AMIRA - Emotive Color

(Granted the cameras, unsupported light sources, WB etc, I'm pleased!)

[Oliver Daniel]

5 minutes ago, Sage said:

@Oliver Daniel For an idea of how current EC works with the EVA, here are a couple of tests images (from Slashcam and Best Film & Video):

(Granted the cameras, unsupported light sources, WB etc, I'm pleased!)

Awesome, seems to respond really well! 

I'm using Verde on a new food commercial - will share when it's done! 

[Sage]

14 minutes ago, Oliver Daniel said:

Awesome, seems to respond really well! 

I'm using Verde on a new food commercial - will share when it's done! 

Yes Please! I'm looking forward to that. Do you use Resolve?

The area where EVA could have a nice boost is the handling of the top end of DR. Current EC has an ideal rolloff for the GH5, whereas the EVA could have a roomier EC

7 hours ago, Oliver Daniel said:

 

and certainly the GH5 is another camera with @Sage insane Alexa conversion. That thing is nuts!

Thanks man, I appreciate that (greatly).

[newfoundmass]

6 hours ago, jonpais said:

@newfoundmass I'd be interested in seeing some of this footage of sporting events, event coverage, documentary and commercial work you've shot that would not have been possible with the a7 III. 

As for 4K 60p 10-bit, the GH5 requires the expensive, obscenely big, heavy, hot, noisy, power-hungry Shogun Inferno.

And I've seen lots of projects shot with all kinds of cameras where 1080 60p was intercut with 4K and it didn't look like garbage - far from it.

It feels as though you're more interested in attacking me, as opposed to what I'm saying. It's great that you don't need these features shooting your hobbyist videos in the cafe or bar you frequent, but they're incredibly useful for many of us. 

The bulk of my work is for independent wrestling organizations and wrestlers. Getting footage of the performers doing their signature moves, flying through the air, etc. in 4k 60p is a huge part of what I do. The Sony a series cannot do that. I don't need to intercut 1080 60p with 4K because I have a very capable camera that can give me the extra resolution AND frame rate I need. That's kind of the point.

I do green screen work for those same organizations and wrestlers. 4k 10 bit 4:2:2 blows away anything the Sony cams can do for this kind of work. It's simply on a different level. 

They are, as I said, things that I simply could not do with the A7iii and a6500. I'm not sure what part of that is difficult for you to understand? 

These are similar things that Oliver talked about doing himself. My experience I felt was relevant, so I shared it. 

[jonpais]

3 hours ago, newfoundmass said:

It feels as though you're more interested in attacking me, as opposed to what I'm saying. It's great that you don't need these features shooting your hobbyist videos in the cafe or bar you frequent, but they're incredibly useful for many of us. 

The bulk of my work is for independent wrestling organizations and wrestlers. Getting footage of the performers doing their signature moves, flying through the air, etc. in 4k 60p is a huge part of what I do. The Sony a series cannot do that. I don't need to intercut 1080 60p with 4K because I have a very capable camera that can give me the extra resolution AND frame rate I need. That's kind of the point.

I do green screen work for those same organizations and wrestlers. 4k 10 bit 4:2:2 blows away anything the Sony cams can do for this kind of work. It's simply on a different level. 

They are, as I said, things that I simply could not do with the A7iii and a6500. I'm not sure what part of that is difficult for you to understand? 

These are similar things that Oliver talked about doing himself. My experience I felt was relevant, so I shared it. 

I don’t see how asking to see some of this work of yours is the same as attacking you, but I’ll let it go at that. Have a nice day.

[newfoundmass]

Ultimately I think Oliver should consider versatility; he'd cover pretty much every base with the EVA1, GH5S, and GH5, with auto focus being the only thing he can't really make up for. His options are pretty much limitless when his 'b' and 'c' cams would have features that aren't too far off from his 'a' cam and could easily be swapped in and used for a lot of the work he is going to be doing.