Sony PMW-F3 10bit Slog vs Sony FS700 12bit linear raw?!

[IronFilm]

Am pondering buying a Sony FS700 (as you might see from the other thread).

The FS700 does 12 bit compressed linear raw from its SDI output, which seems like a backwards step vs the 10bit Slog out of the F3? As you really need to get 16bit linear raw before it is better than 10bit Slog. (such as say the F5 does with its 16bit raw, so as to be better than the internal 10bit Slog)

So does this really make it worth it?

And additionally, how do the external recorders handle the conversion from 12bit linear raw to 10bit ProRes HQ recordings? I assume they're applying some sort of gamma curve. (but is different from Slog?)

[pablogrollan]

12 hours ago, IronFilm said:

As you really need to get 16bit linear raw before it is better than 10bit Slog.

That is not entirely true... I imagine the FS RAW out of the FS700 is very similar to the FS RAW out of the FS5 (both 12bit linear and from very similar if not the same sensor). I can tell you that both the raw to CDNG and the raw to Prores HQ 422 recorded to an Atomos Shogun Inferno are considerably better/more flexible than the original Slog 2/3 10 bit files, both from an FS5 or even an FS7. It could be that Slog files -which are not as flat as Slog 2&3- are "less strained" and can handle pushing in post better (can't know for sure because I haven't used an F3), but I doubt it.

FS RAW out of the FS5 is only SLog2, so in practical terms most of the times I end up recording a Prores HQ 422 Slog2 file that is slightly better than the clean uncompressed 10bit 422 file out of the SDI without the raw license. If I need an extra headroom, I always have Cinema DNG. Plus, am I wrong assuming the FS700 raw license also unlocks framerates and resolutions not available before such as UHD/4K 60p? I know it's still far from the 16 bit raw of an F5 or F55, but I wouldn't consider it a step down from an F3.

[IronFilm]

8 hours ago, pablogrollan said:

That is not entirely true... I imagine the FS RAW out of the FS700 is very similar to the FS RAW out of the FS5 (both 12bit linear and from very similar if not the same sensor).

From everything I've heard the FS raw from a FS700 is better than the FS5/FS7 (because Sony slightly screwed up their FS raw implementations, for instance almost no one does FS raw from the FS7 because of this I think. However the FS5 of course gets a bigger leap forward than the FS7 by using external vs internal recordings)

And yeah, F5/FS7/FS700/FS5 all share the "same" sensor (but tweaked for each camera). 

 

8 hours ago, pablogrollan said:

Plus, am I wrong assuming the FS700 raw license also unlocks framerates and resolutions not available before such as UHD/4K 60p?

Yup, can even do 4K 120fps from the FS700 FS raw. 

Basically the camera is crippled if doing internally, heck an a5100 toy might even do better 1080 24fps internal than a FS700!

 

8 hours ago, pablogrollan said:

I know it's still far from the 16 bit raw of an F5 or F55, but I wouldn't consider it a step down from an F3.

I strongly suspect the FS700 (and FS7/FS5) will be a step down for me in terms of 1080 on speed recordings, but an upgrade in almost everything else. 
(But not in *everything*, just almost, for instance the FS700 has many less SDI outputs than the F3, and lacks timecode input or genlock. Bummer!!)

[IronFilm]

Dan Keaton (from Convergent Design, so an expert on this topic) says that a gamma curve is applied by the FS700 before outputting its "raw" signal, which is how it squeezes more than 12 stops into 12 bits:

 

http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/convergent-design-odyssey/532413-fs700-raw-output-slog-3-a.html#post1918899

Ah good, I am feeling better about this now.
 

But am still wondering what is happening in the details of when a 10bit ProRes HQ file is being recorded in the Odyssey or Shogun from a FS raw signal from the FS700?

Is a further extra curve being applied to squeeze those 12bits of into down into 10bits?

[Tone1k]

8 hours ago, IronFilm said:

From everything I've heard the FS raw from a FS700 is better than the FS5/FS7 (because Sony slightly screwed up their FS raw implementations, for instance almost no one does FS raw from the FS7 because of this I think. However the FS5 of course gets a bigger leap forward than the FS7 by using external vs internal recordings)

And yeah, F5/FS7/FS700/FS5 all share the "same" sensor (but tweaked for each camera). 

 

Yup, can even do 4K 120fps from the FS700 FS raw. 

Basically the camera is crippled if doing internally, heck an a5100 toy might even do better 1080 24fps internal than a FS700!
 

Not at all! The Odyssey's 'supersampled' RAW to Prores 2K or 1080 convertion from the FS700 is fantastic. And for small jobs, just record ProRes Lt or 422. Also, with the Odyssey, you get an amazing monitor with great exposure/ focus aids and you gain a few sdi outputs. 

Ergonomics are not as good as the FS7 but image wise, the FS700 with odyssey is up there with the F5 and F55. 

[webrunner5]

Yeah if you buy a FS700 you just about have to buy a Odyssey 7Q to go with it. Sony I guess got with them at the start and worked some Voodoo Magic with it. I think Atomos was late to the dance on it.

[IronFilm]

3 hours ago, Tone1k said:

Not at all! The Odyssey's 'supersampled' RAW to Prores 2K or 1080 convertion from the FS700 is fantastic.

I was specifically referring to internal from the FS700. Which is why you need the Odyssey or similar. 

1 hour ago, webrunner5 said:

Yeah if you buy a FS700 you just about have to buy a Odyssey 7Q to go with it. Sony I guess got with them at the start and worked some Voodoo Magic with it. I think Atomos was late to the dance on it.

Not too late?

Just too late for the FS700 early adopters! For years Convergent Design was almost the only game in town as the "affordable" option. 

 

But Atomos looks perfect for us late adopters of the FS700?

[webrunner5]

1 hour ago, IronFilm said:

I was specifically referring to internal from the FS700. Which is why you need the Odyssey or similar. 

Not too late?

Just too late for the FS700 early adopters! For years Convergent Design was almost the only game in town as the "affordable" option. 

 

But Atomos looks perfect for us late adopters of the FS700?

I am not too sure of that. Each system has good or bad options. They are not both going to output the exact same look. They each have things backed in. But sure, the Atomos is not going to look shabby by any means.