Nikon FF Mirrorless

[kye]

1 hour ago, Márcio Kabke Pinheiro said:

But the dials are strange - the left one looks like a mode dial, but the right one is kind of large to be only a exposure compensation / programmable one...

I've enhanced the image using the latest Hollywood VFX and I can conclude it's so large because it has to fit in all the video modes..

I can clearly make out 1080 RAW 12bit, 1080 RAW 14bit, 4K RAW 14bit, 4K RAW 16bit, 4K Prores 444 HQ, 5K RAW, 5K Prores 444 HQ, 6K Prores 444 HQ, 8K Prores 444 HQ, but the last two are too blurry - I'm assuming they're 10K to downsample for 8K.

[Robert Collins]

22 minutes ago, mercer said:

Well, there’s probably two reasons for that. Remember they got a little heat last release for not having a pro female photographer amongst their ambassador group.

Plus, Canon just took the number one slot in mirrorless sales for the last quarter in Japan and Canon heavily markets their M line to females.

True but Canon mirrorless market share is built on US$600 mirrorless and not US$2-3k mirrorless.

Nikon 1 was always pitched at women (remember the pink variant?)

I just find it surprising that it is not being pitched at the 'aspiring pro' market as an alternative to a DSLR.

[IronFilm]

1 hour ago, Danyyyel said:

I think all this has been intentional link. There are just too much of them coming out and she apparently is a famous actor in china.

Was wondering how "famous" she might be, so showed her to my GF to see if she recognized her. 
Yup!
In fact my GF even went to the same Uni as her at the same time back in China. Small world. 

 

1 hour ago, Robert Collins said:

I find it interesting that Nikon's marketing of the mirrorless (at least in Japan) is aimed at women (youngish). It is a far cry from their marketing of their other full frame offerings.

I expect their new generation of mirrorless they'll try to be marketing to all people, just like they believe their DSLRs are for everyone as well. 
So we'll see adverts aimed at fashion photographers, for vloggers, for soccer mums, for street shooters, for landscape artists, etc etc

[jonpais]

Ergonomically, it looks vastly superior to my a7 III. But one of the chief reasons for getting Sony was reliable continuous autofocus when shooting on a gimbal. And I’m able to balance practically all of my lenses on the original Crane, making for a very compact setup. The Nikon + lenses looks like it will require the much larger and heavier DJI, something I wouldn’t be too thrilled about. Not to mention that it will be years before they catch up with Sony’s native lens lineup (I’m through with adaptors). Lastly, looking at those leaked images, I can’t imagine the Nikon selling for less than $3,000. I guess we’ll see... 

[ntblowz]

If video AF is good enough and IBIS is much better I dont mind dumping my A7III to Nikon, at end of the days it just all tools to me.

I am still waiting for Canon FF Mirrorless to upgrade my m50.

[Andrew Reid]

I am curious about what they do with the more affordable model in the region of 24MP.

Whether for example it apes the A7 III full pixel readout in 4K and Sony's on-chip phase detect AF.

If Nikon doesn't copy Sony there, then the A7 III will have quite a nice advantage, especially given the price.

On the 46MP model, which is probably going to perform similar to the D850 for 4K, again it will be interesting to see about AF in video mode... But I fully expect the 4K to be pixel binned in full frame mode, so the question is... will it look as good as it does on the D850 pixel binned? FX mirrorless cam = D850? I reckon so. Nikon have tended to standardise video quality very well between models... D3300 vs D5300 = same. D750 vs D810 = same. On the D850 you can barely tell the pixel binned full frame 4K apart from the full pixel readout in S35 mode, it's that good.

If Nikon let the mirrorless models fall behind their own D850 or the A7 III for video, then of course it is much less attractive, no matter what kind of ergonomic niceness it'll bring to the table, which is much needed as Sony are still charmless here.

[jonpais]

3 hours ago, ntblowz said:

If video AF is good enough and IBIS is much better I dont mind dumping my A7III to Nikon, at end of the days it just all tools to me.

I am still waiting for Canon FF Mirrorless to upgrade my m50.

Yeah, if IBIS is better, I’m dumping my perfectly satisfactory $2,000 a7 III and $7,000 worth of brand new lenses for a system we know absolutely nothing about. After all, they’re just toolz, and I change systems as the wind blowz. ?

2 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

I am curious about what they do with the more affordable model in the region of 24MP.

Whether for example it apes the A7 III full pixel readout in 4K and Sony's on-chip phase detect AF.

If Nikon doesn't copy Sony there, then the A7 III will have quite a nice advantage, especially given the price.

On the 46MP model, which is probably going to perform similar to the D850 for 4K, again it will be interesting to see about AF in video mode... But I fully expect the 4K to be pixel binned in full frame mode, so the question is... will it look as good as it does on the D850 pixel binned? FX mirrorless cam = D850? I reckon so. Nikon have tended to standardise video quality very well between models... D3300 vs D5300 = same. D750 vs D810 = same. On the D850 you can barely tell the pixel binned full frame 4K apart from the full pixel readout in S35 mode, it's that good.

If Nikon let the mirrorless models fall behind their own D850 or the A7 III for video, then of course it is much less attractive, no matter what kind of ergonomic niceness it'll bring to the table, which is much needed as Sony are still charmless here.

I can go along with most of this. 

[ntblowz]

21 minutes ago, jonpais said:

Yeah, if IBIS is better, I’m dumping my perfectly satisfactory $2,000 a7 III and $7,000 worth of brand new lenses for a system we know absolutely nothing about. After all, they’re just toolz, and I change systems as the wind blowz. ?

I can go along with most of this. 

 

Guess that the difference between full time working vs hobbyist, just did 2 $2000 jobs last week, so it is manageable for me.

$10000 gear is nothing to sneeze at, most of my friend got way more expensive gear than that. My gear is toys compare to them lol. (Some of them earn 6 digit a year just doing video, consider NZ is very small population country so that really good!)

 

 

 

[jonpais]

16 minutes ago, ntblowz said:

 

Guess that the difference between full time working vs hobbyist, just did 2 $2000 last week, so it is nothing to me lol.

$10000 gear is nothing to sneeze at, most of my friend got way more expensive gear than that. My gear is toys compare to them lol. (Some of them earn 6 digit a year just doing video)

 

 

 

 

The point isn’t just about throwing money around. What you’re basically saying is that if IBIS alone is better, you’re switching systems - without knowing anything at all about the Nikon mirrorless camera!

[ntblowz]

21 minutes ago, jonpais said:

The point isn’t just about throwing money around. What you’re basically saying is that if IBIS alone is better, you’re switching systems - without knowing anything at all about the Nikon mirrorless camera!

What I want to do with my money is non of your business, it’s not like I m spending your money or anything. ?

 

For my spending money on gear gives me thrill and spark, hey it’s much cheaper than owning and flying airplane which 2 of my co-workers do. It cost few hundred dollars on fuel for each flight alone! 

 

[ND64]

This huge mount begs for a Cine lens line up.. Nikon won't spend money on that.. hope Samyang and Zeiss do it. 

[Robert Collins]

I think the current general narrative - Nikon v Sony - FF mirrorless isnt that productive. Sony has set the bar in terms of 'features' and 'value' incredibly high to think that Nikon will beat it with their first mirrorless offering. 

From Nikon's perspective the most important thing is that they get their installed customer base on board for their mirrorless product and dont continue to leak elsewhere.

From that perspective, it is incredibly important that their adapter works incredibly well (or certainly much better than a Nikon lens on a Sony - which certainly isnt asking a lot

 

[BTM_Pix]

8 hours ago, Robert Collins said:

I just find it surprising that it is not being pitched at the 'aspiring pro' market as an alternative to a DSLR.

Maybe their choice of using the self same brand ambassador of another product means they are pitching it at the 'aspiring selfie expert and leader' market as an alternative to a phone

[Danyyyel]

3 hours ago, Robert Collins said:

I think the current general narrative - Nikon v Sony - FF mirrorless isnt that productive. Sony has set the bar in terms of 'features' and 'value' incredibly high to think that Nikon will beat it with their first mirrorless offering. 

From Nikon's perspective the most important thing is that they get their installed customer base on board for their mirrorless product and dont continue to leak elsewhere.

From that perspective, it is incredibly important that their adapter works incredibly well (or certainly much better than a Nikon lens on a Sony - which certainly isnt asking a lot

 

I personally think they will. They didn't wait that long for nothing and I might seem stupid but I am judging that camera by the look. In fact it is about the size, one of the big problem that have plagued the Sony's has been ergonomic and overheating. This camera seems a bit bigger, which will give better ergonomics and more space for heat dissipation without being as big as a DSLR like the D750. That doesn't mean that they will not introduce much smaller apsc version that will be targeting D5300-D5600 buyers that will want pocket-able cameras. In the end for full frame camera, ultra small size is a bit moot because the FF lens will make big. The second thing also is about size and now it is about the mount size. This thing is so big that my guess is that they will come with IBIS as good as the Panasonic cameras, because the sensor will be able to move much more than the Sony's. The second thing about this big lens mount is that they will be able to do faster unique lens like the patented Noct .95 lens and or easier quality lens as thy won't have to bend the light that much to make it pass through a smaller size mount. The last thing is AF, many people forget that they already had a good on sensor Pdaf system in the Nikon 1 mirroless, even if it was on a much smaller sensor, I think they have progress enought since 2011-2015 to get it good in FF in 2018. 

[BTM_Pix]

8 hours ago, jonpais said:

Not to mention that it will be years before they catch up with Sony’s native lens lineup (I’m through with adaptors). 

I think there are adapters and then there are manufacturer's own adapters though Jon.

This one should be far more akin to something like Canon's EOS adapter for their M mount cameras or Olympus 43 to M43 etc.

When the manufacturer owns both ends of the puzzle (not to mention has examples of all of those ends to work with) it is a different ball game to a 3rd party trying to make something. 

This adapter should just essentially be a teleconverter without the glass and I've never had anywhere near enough issue with using Nikon's ones even from an optical perspective not to consider using them (given the acceptance of some degradation) let alone an AF and control point of view, which is all they would be doing here.

Whether the new system as a whole gives the same level of AF performance as their current DSLRs is an entirely different discussion altogether but unless they drop an almighty bollock with this adapter then there should be no reason why the older lenses shouldn't be close enough in performance to be at least considered pseudo-native or para-native or whatever new category us Nikon fanboys invent for it 

 

[Robert Collins]

6 minutes ago, Danyyyel said:

I personally think they will. They didn't wait that long for nothing and I might seem stupid but I am judging that camera by the look. In fact it is about the size, one of the big problem that have plagued the Sony's has been ergonomic and overheating. This camera seems a bit bigger, which will give better ergonomics and more space for heat dissipation without being as big as a DSLR like the D750. That doesn't mean that they will not introduce much smaller apsc version that will be targeting D5300-D5600 buyers that will want pocket-able cameras. In the end for full frame camera, ultra small size is a bit moot because the FF lens will make big. The second thing also is about size and now it is about the mount size. This thing is so big that my guess is that they will come with IBIS as good as the Panasonic cameras, because the sensor will be able to move much more than the Sony's. The second thing about this big lens mount is that they will be able to do faster unique lens like the patented Noct .95 lens and or easier quality lens as thy won't have to bend the light that much to make it pass through a smaller size mount. The last thing is AF, many people forget that they already had a good on sensor Pdaf system in the Nikon 1 mirroless, even if it was on a much smaller sensor, I think they have progress enought since 2011-2015 to get it good in FF in 2018. 

Well its all good speculation. I certainly dont think Nikon would introduce a poor camera for their first serious mirrorless but I think it will be a 'solid' entry rather than anything too groundbreaking. Two reasons...

1) Timing. I think if Nikon had a mirrorless up their sleeve that would 'blow away' Sony they would have already released it much earlier. The timing looks entirely 'defensive' to me. Nikon  'needs' FF mirrorless 'now' in response to the success of Sony's A7x3 cameras or risk eroding their client base..

2) Marketing 'lite'...

Look at this photo taken at a marketing shoot....

This is marketing 'lite' - it is far more Nikon 1 than D850. This girl is young, female and appreciates that the mirrorless is lighter. She doesnt go out in the sun (or the rain) or go parkour jumping.....

[jonpais]

@Danyyyel Ergonomics and overheating might have plagued Sony in the past, but the a7r III and a7 III are much improved in both regards. The grip is larger, button placement is better and practically any menu item can now be assigned to as many as thirteen buttons and dials. Battery life has also been dramatically increased over previous generations. The compact size of the a7 III means it can be flown on an inexpensive lightweight gimbal. I can’t see a pressing need for f/0.95 FF lenses with Sony’s insanely good lowlight sensors; f/.95 lenses will be large, heavy and prohibitively expensive. Many reputable photographers now believe that even f/4 zooms should no longer be considered ‘consumer’ grade. I’ve never shot Nikon, but AFAIK, the D850 uses slow CDAF for 4K that hunts and there is no focus peaking in 4K either. Sony has shown that not only are they ready to throw in everything but the kitchen sink in their ‘basic’ model, but also to price it extremely aggressively, something which I don’t for a moment expect Nikon to be able to match. There is likewise no reason for me to expect Nikon to surpass Sony in video; in fact, in my whole life, I’ve never seen anyone use a Nikon for video: so I guess we’ll just have to wait and see. There still remains the issue of native lenses (ie, not adapted), which will take years to catch up with Sony.

[BTM_Pix]

43 minutes ago, jonpais said:

There still remains the issue of native lenses (ie, not adapted), which will take years to catch up with Sony.

I'm not going to split hairs with you over the definition of adapted Jon but if Nikon don't have their adapter making their existing currently produced lenses work as closely to native as the new lenses then they won't have those years in which to catch up with Sony so how it performs is arguably as important as the camera performance itself.

I said I wasn't going to split hairs over the definition of adapters but if I was (  ) then I'd say that for many, many people, the adapter in this case will be attached with such permanence to these cameras that it will just be called 'the lens mount'. 

Ironically, the advantage to me of the E mount is just how much can be adapted to it. The smart adapters for Canon alone flesh out Sony's lineup and the genius of the TechArt Pro in giving AF to manual focus lenses both old and new is a huge advantage. 

Over time, we will no doubt see similar offerings for the new Nikon mount but as it stands, the total lens selection with AF for E mount now surpasses every system even the venerable Micro 4/3.

[Robert Collins]

4 minutes ago, BTM_Pix said:

I'm not going to split hairs with you over the definition of adapted Jon but if Nikon don't have their adapter making their existing currently produced lenses work as closely to native as the new lenses then they won't have those years in which to catch up with Sony so how it performs is arguably as important as the camera performance itself.

I said I wasn't going to split hairs over the definition of adapters but if I was (  ) then I'd say that for many, many people, the adapter in this case will be attached with such permanence to these cameras that it will just be called 'the lens mount'. 

Ironically, the advantage to me of the E mount is just how much can be adapted to it. The smart adapters for Canon alone flesh out Sony's lineup and the genius of the TechArt Pro in giving AF to manual focus lenses both old and new is a huge advantage. 

Actually,, I have a different reason for thinking that it 'wont' take Nikon years to catch up 'Sony' with lenses.

The key point with mirrorless lenses is that they need different af motors to pure 'pdaf' lenses (of DSLRs) to take advantage of the 'pdaf' plus 'cdaf' fine tuning of mirrorless lenses. 

The Nikon 1 had excellent on sensor pdaf because the sensors were built by Aptina which had on sensor pdaf tech. Aptina agreed a cross licensing patent deal with Sony (and was subsequently taken over by On Semi who no longer makes image sensors for dedicated ILCs). Sony took that tech and used it in their second generation A7x series. Nikon will presumably license the same tech from Aptina/Sony for their mirrorless. This is a long winded way of saying that Nikon's mirrorless af will likely be very similar to Sony's.

So I dont really see any particular reason why 3rd party manufacturers of Sony FE mount lenses shouldnt be able to fairly quickly come up with Nikon Z mount versions. So Sigma (well sort of), Tamron, Samyang and Zeiss Batis (?). Now that is 20 lenses that could be introduced in less than a year.

[BTM_Pix]

15 minutes ago, Robert Collins said:

The Nikon 1 had excellent on sensor pdaf because the sensors were built by Aptina which had on sensor pdaf tech. Aptina agreed a cross licensing patent deal with Sony (and was subsequently taken over by On Semi who no longer makes image sensors for dedicated ILCs). Sony took that tech and used it in their second generation A7x series. Nikon will presumably license the same tech from Aptina/Sony for their mirrorless. This is a long winded way of saying that Nikon's mirrorless af will likely be very similar to Sony's.

Fascinating stuff.

Cheers