Nikon FF Mirrorless

[jonpais]

1 hour ago, Trek of Joy said:

Sony would certainly leapfrog Nikon, but Canon? Maybe, maybe not. Canon has everything from Cinema cameras, to top end broadcast cameras (they were the camera of the Olympics) to cheap consumer camcorders - just like Sony. 

Chris

That's true of all new cameras. Forums would exist if that wasn't the case.

Those pie charts of yours I was referring to don’t refer to cinema and broadcast cameras or camcorders, afaik.

[webrunner5]

Yeah but What makes Sony Sony is all the extra stuff in them that DSLR's don't have. Face, Eye lock, Clear Zoom, pretty damn good IBIS, full frame 4K sensor scanning, no FF crops, on and on. There is a reason the menus are so damn big, is that they have a ton of stuff in their products.

Is Canon, Nikon going to get all of that right on their first try? I really doubt it. And that is what sets the Sony stuff apart. It is all the bells and whistles that make your life easier to shoot with. Are people going to give all that up to have a gimped ass Canon, and you know the hell it will be so. Is Nikon Video going to be ass kicking, you know it won't. I think you are giving Canon, Nikon Way too much credit for 2 company's that have dragged their feet for years. They are WAY behind Sony, crazy behind.

And you think the new Sony A7s mk III is going to be a Canon M50? I would bet this new BM PK4 is going to be nearly a better camera than both of them other than AF, low light, and the low light will be good enough with a Speedbooster on it for the video part of it which we give a crap about. You really think this new Canon will have full pixel readout, no crop and DPAF 4K 60p in 10bit? Yeah, that will happen.  It Ain't going to be a Canon C300 mk II for 4 grand. And it damn near will need to be one.?

[noone]

18 minutes ago, mercer said:

Idk, I tend to think that both Nikon and Canon only look at each other as competitors.

Sony’s market share could dilute quickly once this Nikon is released and even quicker when the Canon is released. A lot of the shooters that “jumped ship” will take their EF lenses and Nikkor lenses back to their native homes... unless Nikon and Canon only attempt a bunt with their first foray into FF mirrorless.

The fact that they’re both getting into the market around the same time may force their hands into offering the kitchen sink for fears that the other may do the same.

Time will tell but in the meantime, it will be a fun guessing game.

agreed about Canon and Nikon looking at each other as their competitor historically but FF mirrorless is a new game.

A year ago I would have agreed more about Sony's market share as their strength that attracted many (mainly Canon) users was also their weakness in many were buying a Sony as another body for Canon lenses and that is still happening but in the last year there have been more and more ditching the adapter route and I see many posts now that they are done with adapters because for the most part (some exceptions) the lenses are there now.

This WILL force Sony to up their game and the area of weather sealing is a huge Achilles heel for them with pro shooters (I have never owned any fully weather sealed cameras or lenses and that includes a few Canon L's) but if you need it, you need it.

[jonpais]

Since I am here for the video, I am only interested in what these cameras can bring to the table in terms of video features; and I am also highly skeptical that Nikon can suddenly leapfrog Sony (with their decades of experience) in that department with their very first try. 

[webrunner5]

7 minutes ago, jonpais said:

Since I am here for the video, I am only interested in what these cameras can bring to the table in terms of video features; and I am also highly skeptical that Nikon can suddenly leapfrog Sony in that department with their very first try. 

I would actually give Nikon a greater chance of having a better FF Mirrorless than Canon to be honest. Canon can sort of gimp around, I don't think Nikon has that option. And Nikon color science is pretty damn good to be honest. I like it better than Canon for a lot of stuff. Maybe not wedding photography but.. Plus, who doesn't like the underdog here.

[jonpais]

1 minute ago, webrunner5 said:

I would actually give Nikon a greater chance of having a better FF Mirrorless than Canon to be honest. Canon can sort of gimp around, I don't think Nikon has that option. And Nikon color science is pretty damn good to be honest. I like it better than Canon for a lot of stuff. Maybe not wedding photography but.. Plus, who doesn't like the underdog here.

You’d have to be wildly optimistic to think Canon won’t cripple the video, just as they’ve been doing forever. The 6D mkII doesn’t even do 4K, does it? 4 year-old sensor... 

[mercer]

6 minutes ago, jonpais said:

Since I am here for the video, I am only interested in what these cameras can bring to the table in terms of video features; and I am also highly skeptical that Nikon can suddenly leapfrog Sony in that department with their very first try. 

Well even the video features from the laundry list you’ve posted, Nikon has already had a lot of them on one or another of their DSLRs and/or advertise having on their upcoming FF mirrorless except maybe Clear Zoom.

IDK, I’ve always liked Sony but I also have always looked at them as a tech company first and their cameras are demos for what their sensors can do.

But in the end, some people like vanilla and some people like chocolate and after Nikon and Canon get into the FF mirrorless market, there will be a be a Neapolitan of flavors for every shooters FF tastes.

To edit my last comment... Video AF is obviously the pink elephant in the room here... if Nikon doesn’t come out swinging, they will lose to both Sony and Canon.

5 minutes ago, jonpais said:

You’d have to be wildly optimistic to think Canon won’t cripple the video, just as they’ve been doing forever. The 6D mkII doesn’t even do 4K, does it? 4 year-old sensor... 

I tend to go the optimistic route with Canon. I’m regularly let down, but when I’m surprised... I’m really surprised... I just can’t afford it. 

[jonpais]

 

6 minutes ago, mercer said:

IDK, I’ve always liked Sony but I also have always looked at them as a tech company first and their cameras are demos for what their sensors can do.

Those are exactly the kinds of comments that kept me from even considering Sony for years, Glenn. But having shot with the a7 III for a while now, I can testify - it is a real, genuine camera, and a joy to shoot with. ?

I’m hoping Nikon gets it right. Not being sarcastic here either. 

[mercer]

20 minutes ago, jonpais said:

 

Those are exactly the kinds of comments that kept me from even considering Sony for years, Glenn. But having shot with the a7 III for a while now, I can testify - it is a real, genuine camera, and a joy to shoot with. ?

I’m hoping Nikon gets it right. Not being sarcastic here either. 

Oh I’ve been a fan of the Sony image for a while. I haven’t always gotten along with it, but that’s more my fault than Sony’s. I’m even contemplating a brand new 2014 a6000 this fall... well it’s on the list of fun cameras to give a go that I couldn’t afford when they were in fact new... lol. 

[mercer]

1 hour ago, webrunner5 said:

I would actually give Nikon a greater chance of having a better FF Mirrorless than Canon to be honest. Canon can sort of gimp around, I don't think Nikon has that option. And Nikon color science is pretty damn good to be honest. I like it better than Canon for a lot of stuff. Maybe not wedding photography but.. Plus, who doesn't like the underdog here.

I try not to guess what Canon will or won’t do anymore, but it seems, from Rumor sites mind you, that Canon is planning on taking video seriously in their upcoming releases and are using a new sensor in their upcoming FF mirrorless. They also have patents for IBIS and a next generation of DPAF... so if they could manage a small to no crop image, plus IBIS and updated DPAF, hopefully with an EF Mount, then that alone will make me interested. If not, I’ll get a C100 or maybe this Nikon if it lives up to its hopes. In the end, the only certainty for me is that I am continuing with my 5D3 and ML Raw. Anything else, is just gravy. 

Ugh, I need to go out and shoot something. I just realized I mentioned about 5 cameras I want and that was just today... the dog days of summer GAS is starting to set in. 

[webrunner5]

I don't really want to go back to the size of Canon FF lenses. I know the Sony ones are not small, but they are a lot smaller than the EF stuff I can tell you that. Sony has done a hell of a job with this mirrorless stuff, like them or not. They have changed the way we think of FF forever, even APSC.

But I am glad to see Canon and Nikon coming into it. It is Only fair for their fans to have the option. There is No way I am going back to a DSLR unless I was big time back into Birding, which I was for awhile. But Man a Canon or Nikon birding rig is Scary ass big and heavy. When I switched to the Olympus EM1 I thought I died and went to heaven LoL. m4/3 IS the way to go today on birding, hands down. 20mp is way more than enough with how good Oly lenses are. Panny also.

But I think when more and more people discover Mirrorless cameras they will be converts forever. I think that is one reason Fuji has come on so strong as of late. Hell they have Always had the camera color science from day one, even in their little P&S stuff. My little Fuji F20 I want thrown in my Casket LoL. I will take it down with the ship. ?

[User]

I'd be happy to have smaller lenses but I'm really not sure that I want to see professional photo camera bodies get much smaller, especially at the expense of battery longevity etc. At one point they can become toy-like and difficult to hold and stabilise.

I also like and trust optical viewfinders so l'd be happy to see a rangefinder system unleashed on the huddled masses... a free train ticket to re education camps if necessary.

In any case, let's lose that mirrorbox click!

[Trek of Joy]

5 hours ago, jonpais said:

Those pie charts of yours I was referring to don’t refer to cinema and broadcast cameras or camcorders, afaik.

So you're saying is your point is irrelevant? The subject of this thread will factor into said charts. I really don't know what you're trying to say.

Cheers

Chris

6 hours ago, webrunner5 said:

I am not too sure these "other" company's can just throw on a different Z mount on existing lenses they have. With as big as this mouth opening is on it I am not sure they can use the same lens formulas? People may be just stuck having to buy the original Nikon F mount and go that way for awhile with an adapter??

Have you seen the Sigma/Tamron/Tokina DSLR lineup? Identical lenses with different mounts. It won't be any different with Nikon's upcoming mirrorless. The mount size doesn't change the sensor size or the image circle needed to cover the sensor.

[webrunner5]

26 minutes ago, Trek of Joy said:

So you're saying is your point is irrelevant? The subject of this thread will factor into said charts. 

Cheers

Chris

Have you seen the Sigma/Tamron/Tokina DSLR lineup? Identical lenses with different mounts. It won't be any different with Nikon's upcoming mirrorless. The mount size doesn't change the sensor size or the image circle needed to cover the sensor.

I am not too sure about that. Have you ever looked at the back of a Sony FE FF lens?? It is scary different. I cleaned it once and the little plastic rectangle thingy poped off inside the lens!!!  ? Fortunately I got it back on, but you can only clean the rear element when the damn lens is zoomed all the way out, and pins that plastic thing against the rear of the mount. I am talking in further than even that rippled, fuzzy looking thing.  It pivots on some pins in there I guess? It is the same with my FE 28-70mm. Sony did not make it that way just for Shits and Giggles. ?

[mercer]

Well of course they’re all different and not just a mount. The electronics/mechanics involved in changing the aperture of an F Mount is an entirely different design than an EF Mount and etc... so I am sure the 3rd party manufacturers will be able to produce Z mount lenses, but it may take a little while. Of course, they may have already licensed the mount and design and have been working on this. The more available lenses will only help Nikon sell more cameras. Now for manual lenses, the turnaround could be quicker and Voigtlander, Zeiss, Chinese lens manufacturers could turn around some lenses very quickly, I’d imagine. 

[IronFilm]

10 hours ago, Eric Calabros said:

9 of them wil be Sigma Art. IF they can reverse engineer the Z. 

Yup, which I reckon the odds are higher they can do it within a year. (and can always use the Sigma dock to give updates to their Sigma ART Z mount lenses in the future as they further refine their reverse engineering)

So it is very easy to see how there will be twenty plus lenses in total within a year for Z Mount from third parties. Easily more.

6 hours ago, webrunner5 said:

I am not too sure these "other" company's can just throw on a different Z mount on existing lenses they have. With as big as this mouth opening is on it I am not sure they can use the same lens formulas? People may be just stuck having to buy the original Nikon F mount and go that way for awhile with an adapter??

Yes they can reuse their lens designs. The greater size of the mount opening matters rather little. When it comes to lens designs this just gives them MORE OPTIONS (which Nikon will surely take advantage of), but it won't restrict many (if any) existing lens designs from being used. 
 

6 hours ago, noone said:

Do they make a Mitakon 50 f0.95 for Nikon?

No. 

But you can be sure they will for the new Z Mount!

 

 

5 hours ago, mercer said:

The fact that they’re both getting into the market around the same time may force their hands into offering the kitchen sink for fears that the other may do the same.

I hope so!

Canon doing HD in the 5Dmk2/60D/etc was exactly because of fears of  Nikon leaping ahead of them with their D90 and being the only HDSLR.

 

 

5 hours ago, mercer said:

I tend to go the optimistic route with Canon. I’m regularly let down, but when I’m surprised... I’m really surprised... I just can’t afford it. 

How many times does Canon need to let you down before you'll stop being optimistic for Canon? 10 times? 40 times? 100 times?

[mercer]

The large mouth opening can probably only help with lens design and probably is as large as it is to allow for different AF motors, mechanics, electronics, etc... but if you take a look at even the simplest of lens designs... say a Zeiss Planar... the ZF version is an entirely different shape to accommodate the aperture ring compared to the ZE version which has no aperture ring but has electronic contacts to change the aperture. So no matter how you look at it, new molds will need to be made for each of the 3rd Party lenses to make new versions for the Z mount. It’s not as simple as throwing on a new mount to existing bodies but It certainly won’t take years but doubtful they’ll be out tomorrow. 

[webrunner5]

Well Sigma uses their Sigma MC-11 adapter to mate different lenses to different brands, so I would imagine they can ramp up pretty quick. But they are about the only one that does that I can think of. Jon ought to know more about that than I do! ?

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1234034-REG/sigma_89e965_mc_11_mount_adapter_for.html?

[Robert Collins]

16 minutes ago, mercer said:

The large mouth opening can probably only help with lens design and probably is as large as it is to allow for different AF motors, mechanics, electronics, etc... but if you take a look at even the simplest of lens designs... 

I dont think the opening will be anything like as large - 62mm - that people have guessed from some grainy photos. My guess is that it will be between the E mount 46mm and Canon EF 54mm.

By far the largest number of sales for the Z mount over time will be APS-C cameras. And it is terribly inefficient making a 62mm diameter mouth opening to accommodate a sensor with a 27mm diagonal. 

[mercer]

48 minutes ago, IronFilm said:

How many times does Canon need to let you down before you'll stop being optimistic for Canon? 10 times? 40 times? 100 times?

Well, it’s been less than 5 and I didn’t cry over it or anything.