Nikon FF Mirrorless

[Danko]

Hold my beer! ?

40 minutes ago, jonpais said:

I subscribe to lots of YouTube channels, but I arrive at my own conclusions independently. 

I'm addressing the dramatic and false narrative that seeped into otherwise fun, speculative conversation we're here for. While keeping open to many sources is a great thing, are they all equally valid and valuable? If the whole business model of youtube is to attract views, what does that say of the general intention and direction of the narrative there?

54 minutes ago, jonpais said:

I’ve seen people civilly disagree with his conclusions, but before you, I’ve never heard anyone question Hugh Brownstone’s integrity. He is no shill, if that’s what you’re suggesting.

I have never come across him before so I've made an effort to see some of his videos, visited his website, and generally informed myself about him from what he presented online. I agree with you, he doesn't seem to be someone desperately trying to stir the pot in order to attract views. I had problems finding his work or something that would give me a reason to believe he has a deep experience and knowledge of the topic. Apart from a smooth presentation reminding of a well rehearsed TED 'talker', he's not saying anything different. Maybe in different way, more, shall we say, (insert here his trademark slow nod and bringing index finger to the lower lip), thoughtful. 

He says that Nikon has an "opportunity to redefine state of the art -- actually reset the entire industry -- but they have to get past Sony's a7 III first", then states in the video that if they don't do that - they lose. What does it mean? Nikon stops existing, it's the beginning of the end for that brand? Why? Why do you think it is?

1 hour ago, jonpais said:

I’ve got no idea. You tell me!

It was a genuine question. From your previous posts, I've gotten a sense that you do have an idea.

1 hour ago, jonpais said:

Again, why don’t you enlighten us?

This is a video forum, so naturally I’m concerned above all else with video performance. 

Again, I really don't see how I can enlighten you ( who is the plural you?). I'm asking because I thought you have some idea.

 

I’m writing this to try and make people here step away from the discourse that’s been prevailing. Guessing and speculating is fun as we said somewhere earlier but it became a narrative of this battle or survival. And it’s not. And it has nothing to do with reality. It’s not a reality of creative industry, authors, amateurs, simple professionals. It’s only reality of youtube ‘influencers’, embattled fans on DPReview, idle wanna-dos.

[Robert Collins]

40 minutes ago, Danko said:

I’m writing this to try and make people here step away from the discourse that’s been prevailing. Guessing and speculating is fun as we said somewhere earlier but it became a narrative of this battle or survival. And it’s not. And it has nothing to do with reality. It’s not a reality of creative industry, authors, amateurs, simple professionals. It’s only reality of youtube ‘influencers’, embattled fans on DPReview, idle wanna-dos.

Well done. Havent  laughed so hard since watching 'who is America?'

[Danko]

11 minutes ago, Robert Collins said:

Well done. Havent  laughed so hard since watching 'who is America?'

At least you laughed while watching it...

[webrunner5]

6 hours ago, Danko said:

- Do you think Nikon or Canon market decisions are guided by the video users' needs?

- Do you think their 'future' depends on catering to video shooters?

I do! Video is the future. There will be No photo cameras down the road. They will all be video cameras with a photo mode, a frame grab. It's as simple as that.

[Danyyyel]

On 8/7/2018 at 5:47 PM, IronFilm said:

I am a little skeptical as to if we'll see twenty fully AF/AE lenses for Z mount from third parties in the first year, but I have no doubt that overall in total for all third party lenses we will see 20 plus lenses for the new Z mount within a year from Nikon's new mirrorless camera shipping. For sure. 

Which shows the level of strength among Nikon users for a f1.2 lens, or even a f0.95 lens?!

I personally don't think Nikon is the sharing type, where they have an opportunity that arise every 50 years to sell many more lens than they usually do with the whole Nikon usserbase migrating to the new lens mount. They are taking a risk alienating a lot of their user base who have multiple thousand dollar of Fmount lens that they have acquired sometimes for decade. It is a risk they are taking and I think they want to be rewarded for that. The thing is that I think one of the reason they have taken so much time is to have a good upgrade path trough a very good adapter for existing lens. They cannot come out with flagship Level camera (rumored pricing) with only 3 usable lens.

[webrunner5]

1 hour ago, Danyyyel said:

They cannot come out with flagship Level camera (rumored pricing) with only 3 usable lens.

Sort of worked for Sony on the original A7 series. And they had the adapter for the Alpha lenses, just like Nikon will have for their existing F mount stuff.

And I doubt Nikon can stop anyone from using the physical Z mount. Now to have electronics in it well yeah they May have control over that. But I seriously doubt Nikon is going to stop all these Other lens makers from adopting a lens to a Nikon body. Most of Nikon's lenses are old and outdated now anyways. In body motors are pretty much a thing of the past. That is stupid limiting in this day and age for more than one reason in a mirrorless body.

But we will find out soon enough I guess. I am not a buyer no matter what they come up with. It won't be any better video wise than what we already have from several other makers. Who the hell wants to start all over with an unknown path forward, unproven product line. It might be the next Samsung NX1, belly up..

[Trek of Joy]

Nikon Rumors posted a new image of the camera from the usual Chinese sites. Unknown if its a render or actual product image. They also posted some interesting numbers from Nikon's quarterly report.

570,000 ... ILC sales for the quarter 

890,000 ... Lens sales for the quarter

10 million ... Total ILC forecast for the year, down from 11.5

9 million ... Total compact forecast for the year, which would make this year the first compacts sold less than ILC's

Nikon is projecting lower imaging revenues for the year, but higher profits thanks to higher margin cameras like the d850 and the upcoming mirrorless.

cheers

Chris

[ND64]

If the adapter works flawlessly, they don't have to be in a "rush hour" in lens making. They are ready to release a ridiculously compact 500mm f/5.6 for the F mount. I bet they have already made its AF motor mirrorless-compatible. This is also true about Canon (they even want to release a EF mirrorless, which won't have the lack of lens issue at all). 

Besides, unlike Sony, Nikon and Canon and Sigma, have full control on the whole glass process. Though the capacity is not very stretchable, they been doin this business from A to Z, for decades. So if they really want to deliver a dozen new lenses in a relatively short time, they can. Don't expect Canikon accepting help from third parties as Sony did. That's embarrassing for these two big guys that calling themselves Optics company! 

[webrunner5]

1 hour ago, Trek of Joy said:

Nikon Rumors posted a new image of the camera from the usual Chinese sites. Unknown if its a render or actual product image. They also posted some interesting numbers from Nikon's quarterly report.

570,000 ... ILC sales for the quarter 

890,000 ... Lens sales for the quarter

10 million ... Total ILC forecast for the year, down from 11.5

9 million ... Total compact forecast for the year, which would make this year the first compacts sold less than ILC's

Nikon is projecting lower imaging revenues for the year, but higher profits thanks to higher margin cameras like the d850 and the upcoming mirrorless.

cheers

Chris

I hope there is more than just those 4 screws holding that front body flange on. That doesn't look such a good idea!

[noone]

3 hours ago, Danyyyel said:

I The thing is that I think one of the reason they have taken so much time is to have a good upgrade path trough a very good adapter for existing lens. They cannot come out with flagship Level camera (rumored pricing) with only 3 usable lens.

I think the adapter (s)? will be  pretty good and that is needed.      Three lenses at first will be fine.

As I have said, I think the 24-70 f4 that is expected with it could be excellent and the best "kit" lens from anyone FF yet. 

Sony started FF mirrorless with around that many lenses and a couple of adapters for A mount and the 24-70 f4 Zeiss which was sort of the A7R kit lens wasn't that good for its price and the 28-70 FE kit lens for the A7 while good for ITS price would likely be not anywhere near this Nikon (and neither would the Zeiss) and that is all assuming good copies of all the lenses.   There were already APSC E mount lenses that could be used as well though.

The other early (2013) lenses from Sony where    35 2.8 (nice light lens but nothing really special) and the Sony Zeiss 55 1.8 (which IS pretty special for most who have used it and even now) and  70-200 f4 (ok but maybe not as good as DSLR equivalents it seems).         Except for the 55, the later Sony lenses have been generally better.

There were two lenses in 2014, four in 2015, seven in 2016 ETC (not counting third party native lenses like the Zeiss Batis as well as the cheaper brands).

Sony will get a lot better third party native lens support I think than Nikon will at least for a while anyway.

[hansel]

@webrunner5sorry dude but in no way Is nikons lens lineup outdated.     How can you say this while there are still millions of f mount lenses being shot everyday no matter if video or photo. 

[webrunner5]

12 minutes ago, hansel said:

@webrunner5sorry dude but in no way Is nikons lens lineup outdated.     How can you say this while there are still millions of f mount lenses being shot everyday no matter if video or photo. 

They were not made for mirrorless cameras, and not for 4k and above. Canon has a lot of the same shit problem. This is 2018 DUDE! Every lens Sony has on the FE ones is brand new tech.. Not some Nikon F stuff back in 1972.

[noone]

On the note about lens releases.

Just look at the ones Sony did release in 2017, six of them and all first class.

24-105 f4 G,  12-24 f4 G, 16-35 2.8 GM, 100-400 FE, 100 2.8 STF GM and the 85 1.8 FE    Imagine if they had that quality of lens for every one at the start.

I expect Nikon to be close to that sort of level at the start though not sure they will do something like the cheap but great FE 85 1.8 for a while.

[webrunner5]

Plus Nikon has sort of painted themselves in a corner with the focus motor in body. I have no clue what they will do yet, but I would not be surprised to see this new body with No motor in it at all. I would think an adapter with a motor in it is possible, but I think moving forward they have to change their lens concept.

[hansel]

23 minutes ago, webrunner5 said:

They were not made for mirrorless cameras, and not for 4k and above. Canon has a lot of the same shit problem. This is 2018 DUDE! Every lens Sony has on the FE ones is brand new tech.. Not some Nikon F stuff back in 1972.

You might be right, it's just that I don't care really. 

 

What do you mean by tech grinding glass, coating, focus, weather sealing, etc.?

5 minutes ago, webrunner5 said:

Plus Nikon has sort of painted themselves in a corner with the focus motor in body. I have no clue what they will do yet, but I would not be surprised to see this new body with No motor in it at all. I would think an adapter with a motor in it is possible, but I think moving forward they have to change their lens concept.

Surely they don't sell any screw drive lens anymore. They will have it in the adapter and it would be smart move to do so. Sorry I don't get the lens concept part. Afaik lenses have glass in them and a servo motor that is focusing. How is Sony ground breaking tech compared to canons dpaf lenses? That apparently do. a much better focusing job in video?

[Andrew Reid]

3 hours ago, Trek of Joy said:

It's gorgeous stuff, how can anyone complain this is ugly.

As for the mount... if it falls off, we will know about it, but until that fateful day, who cares about the number of screws

Anyone can tell this is going to be nicer in the hand than the A7 III and A7R III

Bigger and more tactile.

Just like the 4K files will be... Thicker than Sony. At least until the A7S III comes along (maybe).

[noone]

1 hour ago, hansel said:

You might be right, it's just that I don't care really. 

 

 

Surely they don't sell any screw drive lens anymore. They will have it in the adapter and it would be smart move to do so. Sorry I don't get the lens concept part. Afaik lenses have glass in them and a servo motor that is focusing. How is Sony ground breaking tech compared to canons dpaf lenses? That apparently do. a much better focusing job in video?

You know Nikon still sells screwdrive lenses new? (and AIS lenses new as well).     14 2.8 D ED for example.

Part of Nikons problem is that they have so many different compatibility issues even with DSLRs and some of the latest Nikon lenses wont work on some CURRENT Nikon cameras .

That is why I think they need more than one adapter or at least one high end one.

[hansel]

I know they sell a fair amount Mf. lenses. And rightly so some of them are Manufactured to a standard that have and will out last any electronic plastic lens. Better some compatibility issues (for low grade cameras) than no compatibility at all.

What screw lenses are they still selling?

Wow, it seems like lots of the af-d stuff is still at least in stock if not in production.

[webrunner5]

2 hours ago, hansel said:

You might be right, it's just that I don't care really. 

 

What do you mean by tech grinding glass, coating, focus, weather sealing, etc.?

Surely they don't sell any screw drive lens anymore. They will have it in the adapter and it would be smart move to do so. Sorry I don't get the lens concept part. Afaik lenses have glass in them and a servo motor that is focusing. How is Sony ground breaking tech compared to canons dpaf lenses? That apparently do. a much better focusing job in video?

Sony is ground breaking and Nikon will Have to be to stay with the Sony A9. You think those old screw lenses are going to focus at 20fps like the A9 can? With electronic shutters there is really no end to how fast they can do FPS. Sony is so damn far ahead of these guys it is not funny. Hey I am a big Nikon fan, but both Nikon, Canon have let themselves get so far behind, I have no clue what they were thinking.

Sure they will be nice, but they are not going to be great! it is their first real try. And Sony will just top them at every move ,and lower the price, and lower it till the cows come home. They are not ever going to catch up. So instead of being the leader like they were at one time, they are sucking hind tit all the time. What a dumb ass position to let yourself get into. And Sony has them all by the ass on Sensors to boot.

And if I wanted a body as big as the Nikon one looks like I would have stayed with a DSLR.  With the bigger mount that means the lenses will be bigger, I think it is a stupid move. Mirrorless cameras were Never meant to have a 600mm lens hanging off of them. Why do you think Sony, Fuji doesn't have them.

I am sure they will sell, but they have such a uphill road to go I doubt they have the capital to keep it moving ahead. Canon, Sony, Panasonic has so much more video experience to pull from, and Nikon has No upward path at all Semi Pro, or Pro gear. They have let themselves become somewhat irrelevant in the video world, and it will bit them in the ass in the short and long run. Canon and Sony will hand Nikon's ass to them even if it is a pretty good product. It is too little too late. Look at the D750 how they have shit around without updating it. Jesus.

[noone]

34 minutes ago, hansel said:

I know they sell a fair amount Mf. lenses. And rightly so some of them are Manufactured to a standard that have and will out last any electronic plastic lens. Better some compatibility issues (for low grade cameras) than no compatibility at all.

What screw lenses are they still selling?

Note sure if these are all screwdrive lenses but I think they are.

10.5 2.8 DX fisheye, 14 2.8D ED, 16 2.8D fisheye, 20 2.8D, 24-85 2.8-4D, 24 2.8D, 28 2.8D, 35 f2D, 50 1.8D, 60 2.8D, 80-400 4.5-5.6D ED, 105 f2 D VC, 135 f2D VC, 180 2.8D ED,  200 f4 micro D ED are all listed on Nikon USA website as being available.

Some of those and some of the MF may not be made anymore but might just be residual stock (don't know) but they still sell them new.

As for those AIS lenses, well some are just garden variety lenses that are not much different to Canon FD or Pentax K or Minolta MD ETC, some nice and some not so.

For example Nikon will happily sell you a 35 1.4 MF lens for $1164.95 (it is not worth it now - at least mine wasn't that I paid a lot less for many years ago) or a 50 1.4 MF lens for $469.95 and I can think of many manual focus normal lenses I would take before that one.

https://www.nikonusa.com/en/nikon-products/camera-lenses/all-lenses/index.page#!