Nikon FF Mirrorless

[Django]

this will be closer to a D750 without flash & mirror than D850/1DX2 imo. i'll take better ergos, stability, battery life & IBIS of a bigger body vs pocketable but to each their own!

[webrunner5]

1 hour ago, Django said:

this will be closer to a D750 without flash & mirror than D850/1DX2 imo. i'll take better ergos, stability, battery life & IBIS of a bigger body vs pocketable but to each their own!

I think it is too late for Nikon anyways.

[ntblowz]

4 hours ago, webrunner5 said:

Yeah but bigger grip, bigger body, bigger battery = bigger weight also. You reach a point you might as well stay with a DSLR. I know that is not the Only advantage of a Mirrorless, but I don't want a 1DX mk II sized mirrorless. 

Each to their own, I hate to change batteries often or worry about battery management in an all day shoot, or worry about overheating because the body doesn’t disperse enough heat, to me camera is a tool for me to make money ?, I want my tools to work to their full and not like a diva.

 

 

[Nikkor]

They can always make a digital vintage, a mirrorless df. A small grip is not really an option with larger lenses.

[noone]

I don't think it IS too late for Nikon (or Canon) but I actually prefer a smaller FF camera and prefer the first gen Sony cameras over the later ones I think just as I preferred similar shaped SLRs over what they became when loaded with electronics.

The smaller size means I can fit an extra lens into the same size bag VS a larger DSLR (and can fit my Sony mounted on a 300 2.8 into the 300 2.8's bag- something I could not really do with a DSLR).       In some ways, I find it easier to use my old 300 2.8 with mirrorless  and film cameras shaped like my A7s than more bloated DSLRs as well due to the way I hold that lens and balance the lens rather than camera.

 

As for batteries, I never have any issue popping in a second or third even (and my three batteries are all very well used and nowhere near what they were new but still work well enough to shoot a festival or photo day out).        For those that DO have an issue, it seems the latest E mount cameras have solved that.

This Nikon WILL sell well to those who prefer different ergonomics to Sony as long as it is competent (better if it is excellent).       They DO need it ASAP though as there are more and more switchers from DSLRs every day and Nikon may as well get in on the act.

[Andrew Reid]

There is space on the market for the lightest and smallest possible full frame mirrorless, for sure.

Look at RX1R II and imagine something like that with interchangeable lenses! A dream.

Maybe that's the future for Micro Four Thirds...

Micro Full Frame has a much better ring to it

[Danyyyel]

6 hours ago, Robert Collins said:

It will be interesting to see how successful this approach will be. Personally, I have my doubts.

Afterall, the problem 'with ergonomics that NX1 users liked' was that there simply wasnt enough NX1 users. The Leica SL - with its even larger than a DSLR approach - has not been a much of a success either. And even the Fuji X-H1 doesnt seem to have caught on with the digital stills crowd.

I tend to think that the 'superior ergonomics' crowd tend to really mean 'its mirrorless but feels like a DSLR'. I guess that is fine to appeal to Nikon core 'existing' customer base but I think it will have less appeal to the faster growing demographics which is women and under 40s.

Still it is probably the right approach for Nikon - it doesnt make a lot of sense for them to 'copycat' Sony and there is clearly demand out there for a mirrorless with a 'more pro body' (and hopefully it will be the end of demands for Sony to make their A7 bodies bigger.)

One doesn't  prevent the other to happen, but I think it will be DX format that will be much smaller and for good reason. That demographic you are talking about doesn't care about full frame camera, more so when it is 2k and above. These pocket-able camera market, will be fully satisfied aith a 20-24 megapixel DX camera and a kit lens. Give them a good all round zoom and all automatic function, more so if you have a no fuss dual pixel type autofocus for photo and video. The enthusiast and pro on the other hand will prefer better ergonomic, because as  you wil put some serious lens on even the Sony, size of body will be negligible and not pocket-able. In fact the contraty, while most Sony users will have to get some battery grip to comfortably handhold these bigger lens, the Nikon one will be just fine for most of them.

[Danyyyel]

3 hours ago, webrunner5 said:

I think it is too late for Nikon anyways.

There are still more Dslr sold than Mirrorless until now. The thing is Nikon had very very good profit this year with their downsizing and restructuring.  In their latest  fiscal year they said how the D850 impacted their profit as it was a huge success. Now coming back to the ML line, the more I look into it the more I see big big surprise. For a starter the new lens mount. The thing is gigantic, it is about the same than Fuji medium format. I am not saying that they would release bigger sensor that 35 mm, but that could be a possibility in the future. The most probable use will be for .9 lens or lets say .2 zoom, that would  put them in another category. The second thing is a much bigger sensor box where the sensor could move much more with ibis. Imagine a full frame camera with the same quality ibis a gh5 etc. I even think that the rear screen will be bigger than 3.2 from the size which we know  now is around d750. (but thinner). What I don't expect unfortunately is 10bit video, 4k 60 fps, log etc.

[Robert Collins]

52 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

There is space on the market for the lightest and smallest possible full frame mirrorless, for sure.

Look at RX1R II and imagine something like that with interchangeable lenses! A dream.

I am surprised Sony never put a FF sensor in an A6xxx body.

[webrunner5]

1 hour ago, Danyyyel said:

There are still more Dslr sold than Mirrorless until now. The thing is Nikon had very very good profit this year with their downsizing and restructuring.  In their latest  fiscal year they said how the D850 impacted their profit as it was a huge success. Now coming back to the ML line, the more I look into it the more I see big big surprise. For a starter the new lens mount. The thing is gigantic, it is about the same than Fuji medium format. I am not saying that they would release bigger sensor that 35 mm, but that could be a possibility in the future. The most probable use will be for .9 lens or lets say .2 zoom, that would  put them in another category. The second thing is a much bigger sensor box where the sensor could move much more with ibis. Imagine a full frame camera with the same quality ibis a gh5 etc. I even think that the rear screen will be bigger than 3.2 from the size which we know  now is around d750. (but thinner). What I don't expect unfortunately is 10bit video, 4k 60 fps, log etc.

I think Nikon's biggest problem is they are waiting to long to release new cameras. Now that may change in the near future. But Why no new D750, etc. Sony spits out something it seems every 6 months or less. And it is something exciting to boot. I have always been a Nikon fan, but thy have to pick up the pace. Things change way too fast now to rest on your laurels.

[webrunner5]

But like @Django said this new mirrorless might be their new D750 replacement when I think about it.

[IronFilm]

9 hours ago, DBounce said:

Well news of this new system coming should tank sales of their DSLRs. I can’t see any new would be Nikon users buying into the old system with the new mirrorless system less than a month away.

I'd still happily buy a cheap Nikon D750/D7500/D500/D850/D810/D800/D7100/D7200 if I see one on sale at a very attractive price, there is still lots of life left in the Nikon F ecosystem!

3 hours ago, Robert Collins said:

I am surprised Sony never put a FF sensor in an A6xxx body.

I'm surprised Sony never put an APS-C sensor in an a7 body! A Sony "a7000" semi pro camera

[webrunner5]

2 hours ago, webrunner5 said:

But like @Django said this new mirrorless might be their new D750 replacement when I think about it.

Correction, he didn't say it was going to be the D750 replacement, just that picture was way off size wise what it probably will be in reality.

[Aussie Ash]

55 minutes ago, webrunner5 said:

Correction, he didn't say it was going to be the D750 replacement, just that picture was way off size wise what it probably will be in reality.

Thom Hogan says there are four new mirrorless  cameras coming two FX and two DX.Why would they abandon DX when it represents 80% of their

body sales .

https://www.sansmirror.com/newsviews/and-we-got-both.html

[webrunner5]

10 minutes ago, Aussie Ash said:

Thom Hogan says there are four new mirrorless  cameras coming two FX and two DX.Why would they abandon DX when it represents 80% of their

body sales .

https://www.sansmirror.com/newsviews/and-we-got-both.html

I don't see how Nikon could afford to develop 4 new mirrorless cameras and keep up with updating the D5, D500, D7500. They are not a large company with deep pockets. Unless they are just going to throw in the towel on DSLR's?

[Aussie Ash]

4 minutes ago, webrunner5 said:

14 minutes ago, Aussie Ash said:

Thom Hogan says there are four new mirrorless  cameras coming two FX and two DX.Why would they abandon DX when it represents 80% of their

body sales .

https://www.sansmirror.com/newsviews/and-we-got-both.html

I don't see how Nikon could afford to develop 4 new mirrorless cameras and keep up with updating the D5, D500, D7500. They are not a large company with deep pockets. Unless they are just going to throw in the towel on DSLR's?

The reality is they can't afford "not to".It also probably means their new FX mirrorless lenses will be useable on DX with a few proper DX primes

[kye]

7 hours ago, noone said:

I don't think it IS too late for Nikon (or Canon)

I agree.

There are still many many thousands (millions?) of Canon and Nikon lenses out there in the wild, and it costs a lot of money to change systems.  Canon has continued making a profit despite providing quite poor video quality compared to others.  Assuming they can make high-quality adapters for their own lens lines, this will continue to be an advantage.

Ken Rockwell (a long-time Nikon follower) mentioned that sometimes Nikon included a feature in a lens in advance of it being supported by the body and wouldn't advertise that feature until it was fully available to consumers, and that this gave them an advantage over third-parties who could only support features that were full enabled, so who knows what tricks lie dormant in these lens catalogues that can only be unlocked by them.

Quote

The AI mount even includes (to this day) mechanical lugs that tell the camera the focal length of the lens. Nikon snuck that in there for future cameras that may have taken advantage of that, but none of those cameras were ever built.

Source: https://kenrockwell.com/nikon/nikortek.htm (IIRC he spoke about this much better elsewhere but I can't find it).  

But the moral of the story is that the company that manufactures the lenses has a very real advantage over other parties, and Canon and Nikon have huge customer bases.

Even if Canon or Nikon waited until many people have converted to Sony / m43 / other systems, this would simply mean that the second-hand price of their lenses would be even lower, so if they released a good camera at that point there would be a huge availability of cheap lenses to entice people back to their systems, or new users to start with them.

[jonpais]

@kye Thanks for the link. That is one in-depth article!

[kye]

1 minute ago, jonpais said:

@kye Thanks for the link. That is one in-depth article!

No worries

Kens site is a pretty good resource - his depth of knowledge is matched only by the strength of his opinions!  Sometimes I disagree with him, but at least you know he's speaking his mind and not pulling any punches.  He writes well and is entertaining and informative - I really like his site.

Some fun articles with lots of opinions in them:

• https://kenrockwell.com/tech/how-to-win-photo-contests.htm 
• https://kenrockwell.com/tech/carry-less.htm
• https://kenrockwell.com/tech/upgrades.htm
• https://kenrockwell.com/tech/artist-or-technician.htm
• https://kenrockwell.com/tech/spectator.htm

[IronFilm]

2 hours ago, Aussie Ash said:

The reality is they can't afford "not to".It also probably means their new FX mirrorless lenses will be useable on DX with a few proper DX primes

Hopefully a few DX zooms too!

Nikon really dropped the ball with their DX lenses for DSLRs (as Thom often buzzes about), hopefully they won't do this again for mirrorless