Panasonic preparing production of full frame sensor for 2020?

[Andrew Reid]

Solving the TowerJazz mystery...

Read the full article

[sanveer]

" ... For this ‘DSLR’ supplier, the first front side illmination project is progressing according to plan, expecting to ramp the volume production in 2020, while the second stacked wafer based project with industry leading alignment accuracy and associated performance benefits is expected to ramp to volume production a year after."

 

I am guessing the 2nd generation of this will have something on the liken of a BSI sensor along with some other features (PDAF?).

 

I couldn't agree more with you @Andrew Reid. The Sony monopoly in the sensor market has made the others almost complacent and Sony had been slowly abusing its monopoly (Like the best 1inch, smartphone and other sensors are for its own cameras).

[MdB]

8 hours ago, sanveer said:

" ... For this ‘DSLR’ supplier, the first front side illmination project is progressing according to plan, expecting to ramp the volume production in 2020, while the second stacked wafer based project with industry leading alignment accuracy and associated performance benefits is expected to ramp to volume production a year after."

 

I am guessing the 2nd generation of this will have something on the liken of a BSI sensor along with some other features (PDAF?).

 

I couldn't agree more with you @Andrew Reid. The Sony monopoly in the sensor market has made the others almost complacent and Sony had been slowly abusing its monopoly (Like the best 1inch, smartphone and other sensors are for its own cameras).

According to every Nikon fanboy ever, including the latest fanboy propaganda is that Nikon design their own sensors and Sony are simply a foundry for them. This would mean that if Sony cameras have the best sensors, it's because they have the best sensor designers or that those other brands aren't designing their own and are indeed using off the shelf designs. Either way, hardly call that Sony's fault. Or perhaps the idea that they are 'just' a foundry is total bunk (which it is). 

The article says it's the second project for this manufacturer. I say it's Leica, they are the only ones currently using larger format sensors from TJ. 

Additionally Leica are expected to be releasing a new S series Medium Format DSLR (which is what these could be for) as well as SL II (and Q etc). Also they are believed to be working with Zenit to produce a 'lower cost' model(s). 

[Andrew Reid]

Yep there's a good chance it's for Leica. I still hold out some hope for the full frame Panasonic cameras though, I really think there's some hints it may happen.

[ND64]

Well, TowerJazz has several fabs.. if they can make sensors for Panasonic, they certainly can supply Nikon, which orders in much higher volume. 

[tyger11]

The 8K stacked BSI GS on-die ND sensor is likely, IMHO, to first show up in their cinema line first. I hope I'm wrong, though.

[noone]

I still think it is more likely where Nikon is going to get their mirrorless FF sensors (or at least one/some of them).

 

All these companies have incestuous relationships.

For instance, Olympus two largest shareholders are (or were dunno if it has changed) Sony and Nikon at around 10% each I think.

[Robert Collins]

The link with Panasonic is pretty tenuous in my view. The Uozo factory used to be 100% owned by Panasonic until they sold it (in 2013) to Towerjazz leaving themselves with a minority 49% stake. So in effect they have exited the business.

I still think the Nikon rumor makes most sense for Towerjazz. Nikon is about to go head to head with Sony in mirrorless FF and they are bound to be disadvantaged if they remain dependent on Sony for their sensors. It is only prudent to find an alternative supplier especially as Toshiba wafer fab was gobbled up by Sony.

I wish Samsung would show an interest in this business.

[buggz]

Does Olympus manufacture their own sensors?

There are hints on 4/3Rumors site, about a new "super" Oly coming, that is much better than the previous model.

Though, since this fab is a Panny/Tower Jazz coop, I now doubt it is for Oly...

[webrunner5]

1 hour ago, Robert Collins said:

The link with Panasonic is pretty tenuous in my view. The Uozo factory used to be 100% owned by Panasonic until they sold it (in 2013) to Towerjazz leaving themselves with a minority 49% stake. So in effect they have exited the business.

I still think the Nikon rumor makes most sense for Towerjazz. Nikon is about to go head to head with Sony in mirrorless FF and they are bound to be disadvantaged if they remain dependent on Sony for their sensors. It is only prudent to find an alternative supplier especially as Toshiba wafer fab was gobbled up by Sony.

I wish Samsung would show an interest in this business.

Yeah but to risk your Very first venture into Mirrorless FF with a unknown sensor, wow that would take some big you know whats to do that I think. ?

[MdB]

23 minutes ago, buggz said:

Does Olympus manufacture their own sensors?

There are hints on 4/3Rumors site, about a new "super" Oly coming, that is much better than the previous model.

Though, since this fab is a Panny/Tower Jazz coop, I now doubt it is for Oly...

Nope. Olympus use Sony. Panasonic use Sony. Nikon use Sony. Ricoh use Sony. Leica uses Sony and TowerJazz and Reneasis. Canon use Sony when they aren't using Canon. 

[webrunner5]

8 minutes ago, MdB said:

Nope. Olympus use Sony. Panasonic use Sony. Nikon use Sony. Ricoh use Sony. Leica uses Sony and TowerJazz and Reneasis. Canon use Sony when they aren't using Canon. 

GULP!

[sanveer]

5 hours ago, MdB said:

According to every Nikon fanboy ever, including the latest fanboy propaganda is that Nikon design their own sensors and Sony are simply a foundry for them. This would mean that if Sony cameras have the best sensors, it's because they have the best sensor designers or that those other brands aren't designing their own and are indeed using off the shelf designs. Either way, hardly call that Sony's fault. Or perhaps the idea that they are 'just' a foundry is total bunk (which it is). 

The article says it's the second project for this manufacturer. I say it's Leica, they are the only ones currently using larger format sensors from TJ. 

Additionally Leica are expected to be releasing a new S series Medium Format DSLR (which is what these could be for) as well as SL II (and Q etc). Also they are believed to be working with Zenit to produce a 'lower cost' model(s). 

I was thinking on the same lines of the sensor size being FF or Larger (Medium Format).

It could be Leica, but their camera sales may be in very small numbers, so TJ may not announce a sensor specifically for them (meaning it may either be common between camera companies being an off the shelf sensor; OR, it may be some other manufacturer for whom numbers may be a big deal for both TJ and the Camrra Company eg:- Canon or Nikon).

Unless the lower cost model with Zenit that you mentioned, may actually be mass market (unlikely IMHO). 

I guess we'll have to wait and watch. 

[BrooklynDan]

Panasonic needs to put a full frame sensor into the Varicam in order to stay competitive in the digital cinema space. The Varicam was a bit late to the party, but managed to build a following thanks to its picture quality and dual ISO capability. But today, I was playing with a Sony Venice at work, and once you go FF, you don't go back. The look is intoxicating. Plus having the ability to use anamorphic lenses all the way to the edges of the image circle. 

I don't know whether they still step into the full frame mirrorless space, but if they can partner with Fuji and apply GH5 tech to the medium format GFX and have clean, jello-free 10-bit 4K, it would be a game-changer.

[webrunner5]

Well this is about the only Sony Venice I can afford. ?

https://www.adorama.com/wc259400.html?gclid=CjwKCAjwhevaBRApEiwA7aT537z56z-_n5OiCHjB3dsWmOOPe8atSSl9vyB_YxeOoE3WDIQUiIXcERoC4OMQAvD_BwE

[Robert Collins]

49 minutes ago, BrooklynDan said:

Panasonic needs to put a full frame sensor into the Varicam in order to stay competitive in the digital cinema space. The Varicam was a bit late to the party, but managed to build a following thanks to its picture quality and dual ISO capability. But today, I was playing with a Sony Venice at work, and once you go FF, you don't go back. The look is intoxicating. Plus having the ability to use anamorphic lenses all the way to the edges of the image circle. 

I don't know whether they still step into the full frame mirrorless space, but if they can partner with Fuji and apply GH5 tech to the medium format GFX and have clean, jello-free 10-bit 4K, it would be a game-changer.

I dont quite understand what particular video features people are looking for 'medium format' to add.

* Medium format is usually associated with very high mega-pixel cameras which are not the greatest starting point for video

* The Sony sensors (and they are pretty much all Sony sensors) have slow readout speeds meaning jello

* ...and they are not yet BSI so despite the larger sensor, low light isnt much improved...

*  Medium format lenses do not tend to be very fast so you cant really get shallower DOF than FF

I can definitely understand why someone who owns a medium format camera for stills would like to see better video but I dont really see how it would end up generating better video than what we can expect to see in FF.

[buggz]

I still miss the outputs from big pixel CCD sensors, they somehow always looked better to me than CMOS.

[Andrew Reid]

11 hours ago, Robert Collins said:

I dont quite understand what particular video features people are looking for 'medium format' to add.

* Medium format is usually associated with very high mega-pixel cameras which are not the greatest starting point for video

8K is going to be a starting point for video at some point. Not soon, but it will be.

This means 36MP+

11 hours ago, Robert Collins said:

* The Sony sensors (and they are pretty much all Sony sensors) have slow readout speeds meaning jello

Actually the 100MP Sony medium format chip has a very fast readout in the Hasselblad. But it has a lot of data to get through, so yes, some jello.

In the future the readout speeds will be equal or better than same resolution full frame chips.

11 hours ago, Robert Collins said:

* ...and they are not yet BSI so despite the larger sensor, low light isnt much improved...

A 50MP medium format sensor that does 8K video will always be preferable in low light to 50MP full frame.

So for 8K, yes they will give a low light advantage over full frame.

I own a GFX and that is superb in low light.

The historic limitation of medium format cameras in low light was that they used CCD technology.

11 hours ago, Robert Collins said:

*  Medium format lenses do not tend to be very fast so you cant really get shallower DOF than FF

On the GFX I have used a range of full frame lenses without vignetting at F1.4.

Those that cover look FFFFFF amazing.

11 hours ago, Robert Collins said:

I can definitely understand why someone who owns a medium format camera for stills would like to see better video but I dont really see how it would end up generating better video than what we can expect to see in FF.

Like I say it is not there yet but with 8K it will be.

[salim]

As others have said it, Leica is probably the most likely candidate here. Some had suggested 2020 means the Tokyo Olympics. But the only players with the large enough lens catalogue for anything that is sport related and fast are Canon, Nikon and gradually Sony. No other player can catch up with the lenses for the full-frame market that could be of any value for the olympics and  I don't think that's market Leica wants to be in, anyways. 

For Leica it makes sense to use a completely different sensor even if the lowlight performance will not be as good as the sony-based rivals. Leica buyers want something different and they will get it with this sensor. 

I do believe with the A7iii and potentially a6700 Panasonic and Olympus are going to face some market challenges. Especially on their high-end products. Soon they will be squeezed out of the market. 

[jonpais]

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