Imaging Resource takes a look inside Nikon's sensor design studios, solves Sony misconceptions

[Cliff Totten]

Lets be honest....companies dont give a damn about Sony's fabrication machines. There are a dozen major facilities that can do that for everybody. Why do companies choose Sony so often? SONY PATENTS! The only way to gain access to Sony's sensor architecture patents....is to BUY access to them and have "Sony" fab them into your sensor! If ANY other plant tries to infringe on Sony patents and "clone" Sony technology, you could literally have your camera pulled from store shelves and be forced to pay damages back to Sony. Its too risky....its much better to give Sony your specs and leagally buy the rest of Sony technology that way. This sensor fab thing is just a big, massive pattent war. And Sony protects their pattents like a pack of wolves protects their kill. Any idea that Sony just happens to be the plant we chose out of thin air by chance to fab OUR sensor is hilarious. Sony sensor architecture PATTENTS are what make their sensors amazing....not their fab equipment. If you take that away then you can go to Aptina or Dalsa or CMOSIS or Samsung our anybody else....thats why companies like Nikon and Panasonic and Samsung dont for their best cameras.

[ND64]

7 hours ago, MdB said:

No, that's an assumed benefit. It's actually considerably less than that. With a greater loss in high ISO

Its only "assumed" for trolls. For photographers, its real. And there is no photographic "loss" in high ISO. Actually, D850 noise has slightly higher quality.

 

7 hours ago, MdB said:

According to whom? 

According to lack of knowledge about Nikon advantages even among its loyal customers. According to their almost invisibility in social media. 

7 hours ago, MdB said:

there is nothing in the article that points specifically to Nikon actually having much say about anything in the 'design' process.

Oh you needed a copy of circuit design to evaluate! Well, they can't give it to you ?

 

14 hours ago, Robert Collins said:

14 hours ago, Eric Calabros said:

 

Or possibly not....

https://petapixel.com/2017/03/22/sony-keeps-best-sensors-cameras/

Oh certainly yes. Sony semi is way larger than Sony Imaging, and they don't say No to their high-volume-ordering partner in favor of their imaging division. Bussines facts don't care about your feelings. 

[MdB]

14 hours ago, Eric Calabros said:

Its only "assumed" for trolls. For photographers, its real. And there is no photographic "loss" in high ISO. Actually, D850 noise has slightly higher quality.

*sigh*

From DPR: "The D850 was able to tolerate an additional 1/3EV of light (not the 2/3 that its ISO 64 rating would imply), but the difference is essentially invisible, even after fairly extreme processing. This puts the a7R III's performance up with the very best cameras on the market at present, including the likes of the Fujifilm GFX 50S or Pentax 645Z."

Essentially invisible... That is unless your a little Nikon fanboy. Wanna explain how you're a 'real' photographer again? 

14 hours ago, Eric Calabros said:

According to lack of knowledge about Nikon advantages even among its loyal customers. According to their almost invisibility in social media. 

They not giving you enough 'likes' on your FB photos? Poor, poor Eric. 

I think this Anti-Sony disease that all Nikon users are born with would suggest otherwise. 

14 hours ago, Eric Calabros said:

Oh you needed a copy of circuit design to evaluate! Well, they can't give it to you

Nope. I know exactly what they 'design'. Go ask Phase One or Hasselblad who aren't too 'proud' to tell the truth. 

[UncleBobsPhotography]

On 7/30/2018 at 11:37 PM, Andrew Reid said:

https://www.nikonprecision.com/products-and-technology/

5nm.

Without understanding all the details of the linked page, I feel like your comment is taken somewhat out of context. Nikon produces a tool used in semiconductor manufacturing that has the precision necessary for 5 nm production fabs. That is very different from having a 5 nm fab, which is how some might interpret your comment.

To me, this seems more of a feat of Nikon optics than it is of Nikon sensors, since optics is a crucial part of lithography.

[webrunner5]

I think most Fab plants have been using Nikon Steppers for years. I know diddly shit about them, but apparently Optics do come into play on them, and Apertures. I am sure Nikon and Sony have had a great relationship over the years. And maybe will still be together on these new Nikon Mirrorless cameras? I am sure nobody in Japan wants to see any of the camera manufacturers go out of business. It is a Nation Pride thing as much as anything. So Sony is not going to throw Nikon under the bus and vice versa. They both need each other.

https://www.nikonprecision.com/products-and-technology/mini-steppers/

[Gianluca]

Admin, why on Earth you always write d850 have better readout in 4k than A7RIII? 

It's very clear which camera have better readout.. 

 

https://***URL removed***/reviews/image-comparison/fullscreen?attr29_0=sony_a7riii&attr29_1=nikon_d850&attr72_0=4k&attr72_1=4k&normalization=full&widget=572&x=-0.22791126122668315&y=-0.7409319196428572

 

 

[Andrew Reid]

I own both cameras and in the real world the D850 4k is the better looking

- Fewer instances of moire patterns in full frame 4K pixel binned mode

- A bit more fine detail on the D850 4K pixel binned mode

- Both have similarly perfect S35 4K from oversampling 5K crop

- Thicker files on D850, higher bitrate codec

- Better colour on D850

Both have some aliasing in the full frame 4K mode.

The DPR chart you point to doesn't really prove whatever your point is... The D850 shows some advantages on there as well. It's only the purple false colour on the extremes of the chart you might be picking up on as a weakness but since you don't say, it's hard to know. In those places on the chart the A7R III is showing extreme aliasing, moire patterns and garbled details. The fine text is also more natural looking on the Nikon output and the instances of moire are fewer.

[hansel]

@MdB  thank god i know f... all about sensor tech. But you make it look like Nikon is allowed to pick what Sony is giving them. I doubt that is the case. Why would it be 46mp? Was that something Sony just had laying around? Probably time will tell once those 46mp sensors start poping up everywhere. 

[ND64]

On 8/1/2018 at 5:03 PM, MdB said:

Nope. I know exactly what they 'design'. Go ask Phase One or Hasselblad who aren't too 'proud' to tell the truth

They're so "humble" that intimidate reviewers

https://petapixel.com/2018/08/01/my-drama-with-hasselblad-bullying-and-their-latest-comparisons/

[BTM_Pix]

The notion of anyone from a camera company trying to play the heavy is somewhat ludicrous to me but is a testament to how hysterical some people now get about cameras.

In all honesty, if that had have been me then I'd have given the Hasselblad rep an opportunity to evaluate the low light performance of that camera by shoving it up his arse.

 

[Andrew Reid]

Wow Hasselblad reps letting the company down big-time there.

However.... ?

Given the opportunity to play with an H6D-100 (which does 4K raw video as well), the review from Usman was total drivel. Shot a soft toy with it. Moans about the price. Erm....yeah that's about it!

 

[Robert Collins]

41 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

Wow Hasselblad reps letting the company down big-time there.

Honestly, when I think Hasselblad, I simply cant get the picture out of my mind of those Sony Nex cameras they rebranded.....

Thankfully they have been put out of their misery by DJI who will probably do great things with the brand (as they are more innovative than all the other camera brands put together.)

[MdB]

20 hours ago, Eric Calabros said:

They're so "humble" that intimidate reviewers

https://petapixel.com/2018/08/01/my-drama-with-hasselblad-bullying-and-their-latest-comparisons/

This has what to do with sensor design? Fanboys...

[jonpais]

13 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

Wow Hasselblad reps letting the company down big-time there.

However.... ?

Given the opportunity to play with an H6D-100 (which does 4K raw video as well), the review from Usman was total drivel. Shot a soft toy with it. Moans about the price. Erm....yeah that's about it!

 

There’s more to it than that. ?Concerning the amount of detail, the reviewer finds that FF lenses resolve more than Hasselblad’s. He much prefers the colors of the Hasselblad over Sony’s (no surprise there). Medium format look - Hasselblad is the winner. Having to focus and recompose at wide apertures with Hassy is not as effective as Sony’s AF. Chromatic aberration - I only recall seeing one lens at one aperture, but whichever FF lens he was comparing it to was the winner here - not enough info. Noise in the shadows - Sony was noticeably cleaner. Build quality - according to the reviewer, the Hasselblad felt cheap. The camera was also buggy and crashed several times on him. To be fair, he did not believe the a7r II is a professional camera either. Oh - and Hasselblad’s menu system appears to be brilliant. As far as price goes, I don’t think he is complaining so much about the cost (I guess he can afford one!) as the expectation that it should outperform the Sony in most categories to justify the expenditure. Disclaimer - I’ve never shot with Hasselblad and never intend to. ?

[Andrew Reid]

The great advantage of medium format lenses is that you can stop down for insane detail and resolution, whilst maintaining a dreamy full frame fast-aperture look. The F2.8 GFX lenses for example look like F2 on full frame but MUCH sharper and better optically.

The other advantage is the dynamic range - no matter what DXO Mark says or how good the full frame sensors are getting - I saw for myself with the GFX 50S how realistic the image looks when graded for maximum dynamic range and how much quality information comes out of the shadows vs my full frame cameras.

Hasselblad deserve criticism for their handling of this YouTuber situation in-person, with the reps, although the YouTuber's account of what happened could be biased or exaggerated, we don't know what really went on. Hasselblad also deserve some flack for the X1D mirrorless camera, which came out with quite the showcase of bugs, and is hobbled by terrible AF performance. That was a very important category to mess up and at the price you expect a whole lot more.

I love the H6D range though and the 100MP model is total cutting edge tech.

The ergonomics of the Hasselblad H3D through H6D have to be experienced one in a life-time... they are different. I love the modularity and HUGE view-finder.

There's not many other things you can find a 48mm wide Kodak CCD sensor in that feels as nice and costs £2000 used.

[jonpais]

Back in the day, I shot a Pentax 645, Rollei f/2.8, view cameras... and there was never any question that bigger negatives meant better image quality. Four years in college and not a word about chromatic aberration, field curvature, dynamic range, grain... Simpler times!

[BTM_Pix]

The X1D to me almost feels like its in the same ballpark as that snakeskin covered monstrosity that Robert posted when it comes to being considered a real Hasselblad.

Its like they've looked at what Leica did with the T (which was a radical departure for them) and thought "Yeah, lets get hip and down with the kids like they seem to be doing".

Its ended up being like someone's Dad thinking about how old their Dad looked at 50 and putting a pair of skinny jeans on and getting a tattoo.

Sometimes, its not only appropriate to just be your Dad but its also actually better.

[MdB]

53 minutes ago, BTM_Pix said:

The X1D to me almost feels like its in the same ballpark as that snakeskin covered monstrosity that Robert posted when it comes to being considered a real Hasselblad.

Its like they've looked at what Leica did with the T (which was a radical departure for them) and thought "Yeah, lets get hip and down with the kids like they seem to be doing".

Its ended up being like someone's Dad thinking about how old their Dad looked at 50 and putting a pair of skinny jeans on and getting a tattoo.

Sometimes, its not only appropriate to just be your Dad but its also actually better.

Completely disagree, the X1D is a perfect example of how these things aren’t immediate and instant for a company with no experience in a particular market. 

Its like the constant pundits who think that because Canon make great DSLRs they’ll make great mirrorless cameras right off the bat, first go. 

They simply don’t. Nobody has. Not one company. Leica probably got closest with the SL, but that probably came with a lot of experience from Panasonic. 

The X1D is a very interesting product and another generation or two and it will be a really serious contender. 

[BTM_Pix]

1 hour ago, MdB said:

Completely disagree, the X1D is a perfect example of how these things aren’t immediate and instant for a company with no experience in a particular market. 

Its like the constant pundits who think that because Canon make great DSLRs they’ll make great mirrorless cameras right off the bat, first go. 

They simply don’t. Nobody has. Not one company. Leica probably got closest with the SL, but that probably came with a lot of experience from Panasonic. 

The X1D is a very interesting product and another generation or two and it will be a really serious contender. 

//EDIT

 

[Kisaha]

@MdB Canon is making mirrorless cameras for some years now, and their latest are a joy to use. They called Eos M and they are perfect for their intended use.

I am 95% confident that both Canonikon will deliver.