Sony Dominates FF Sales in USA

[kye]

TLDR:

• MILCs will gradually replace DSLRs, like DSLRs replaced SLRs and smartphones will replace cameras for the enthusiasts that had compact cameras
• Mirrorless advantages over DSLRs
• MILC lenses vs DSLR lenses and focus modes
• Enthusiast vs Pro Stills vs Pro Video customer segments vs mirrorless manufacturers - current and predictions
• Industry sales are decreasing, more competition
• Predictions of what each brand will do and what will happen commercially
• Sony are leading, CaNikon only have to have good enough mirrorless to keep their current customers, then they can go after Sony in the future
• Consumers are the winners...

[IronFilm]

11 hours ago, Trek of Joy said:

Interesting they use NPD Group info for all the "we're #1 in the last 6 months" but for the claim of #1 in mirrorless over the last 6 years is " Source: Sony internal historical data sources." Form reading that goofy press release, sounds like the "source" is Sony Alpha Rumors.

This announcement reeks of desperation, the a7III and the largely ignored Pentax K1.2 are the only FF bodies released in the last 6 months. They have a new camera, they should be #1. Its no coincidence Nikon's Z6/Z7 announcement is a week away.

Perhaps we'll get a follow up announcing they've maintained a dominant position with most FF cameras shipped between now and when the Nikon starts shipping or something equally silly like most FF mirrorless lenses sold in the last 4 years.

Chris

p.s. I'm keeping an eye on used gear boards after the Nikon is announced, I'm betting there will be some good deals from Nikon shooters that are shooting Sony as a 2nd system or just dipping a toe in mirrorless. Hot new camera means good deals!

There are three kinds of lies:

Lies.

Damned lies. 

And statistics. 

(I say this as a mathematics graduate myself!) 

[Robert Collins]

3 hours ago, kye said:

TLDR:

• MILCs will gradually replace DSLRs, like DSLRs replaced SLRs and smartphones will replace cameras for the enthusiasts that had compact cameras
• Mirrorless advantages over DSLRs
• MILC lenses vs DSLR lenses and focus modes
• Enthusiast vs Pro Stills vs Pro Video customer segments vs mirrorless manufacturers - current and predictions
• Industry sales are decreasing, more competition
• Predictions of what each brand will do and what will happen commercially
• Sony are leading, CaNikon only have to have good enough mirrorless to keep their current customers, then they can go after Sony in the future
• Consumers are the winners...

It is quite a good video. But it seems the first point is glossed over with a pretty glib 'DSLRs will gradually die' approach. I simply dont think you can compare 'milcs taking over from DSLRs with DSLRs taking over from film.'

Consider this. Take a D850 owner who likes its form factor and OVF, has US$15,000 of F mount lenses and doesnt shoot video (my guess, is that most of them dont). And let's heroically assume that Nikon comes out with a 45mp mirrorless that is as good as the A7riii in a 'more ergonomic' form factor. What possible reason would the D850 owner have to switch to Nikon mirrorless (or any other) when their existing lenses wont work nearly as well on the new camera or they have to sell their lenses and buy anew? I dont really see what mirrorless brings to a 'core' D850 owner now or in the future (well apart from silent shooting with a VF). And so Nikon mirrorless and DSLRs are likely to have to live somewhat uncomfortably side by side for a long, long time.

That it is why I think Nikon's marketing of this product is going to be interesting - and perhaps rather different from what many people are expecting.

[Kisaha]

Since I bought me first NX1 I never looked back. Now that Canon and Nikon will play the game, mirrorless slowly but steady will replace most traditional ILCs. In 10 years time I dare to predict most ILCs (a huge percentage, not 52/48%!) will be mirrorless, easily.

After that, we will see the next evolution to video/photography that I am not sure what will be.

 

 

.  

[jonpais]

1 hour ago, IronFilm said:

There are three kinds of lies:

Lies.

Damned lies. 

And statistics. 

(I say this as a mathematics graduate myself!) 

It doesn’t take a degree in math to realize that Sony has been innovating like a bat out of hell, with the rapid development of new products (some would even say too rapid!), the best sensors on the market and an aggressive pricing and marketing strategy while Nikon and Canon have been stagnating. 

FWIW, Nikon referred to the very same research group (NPD) when boasting of the number one spot back in December 2017. And in June of this year, Sony snagged the number one position in FF ILCs in China. 

[MurtlandPhoto]

1 hour ago, Robert Collins said:

What possible reason would the D850 owner have to switch to Nikon mirrorless (or any other) when their existing lenses wont work nearly as well on the new camera or they have to sell their lenses and buy anew? 

We still don't know how F mount lenses will perform with Nikon's mirrorless adapters. Say they perform flawlessly, then the change to mirrorless will be pleasant for most users. We'll find out in one week.

[Django]

let's not forget Sony is currently still offering their 2013 original A7 at rock bottom price ($799):

https://www.bestbuy.com/site/sony-alpha-a7-full-frame-mirrorless-camera-body-only-black/2672642.p?skuId=2672642

and $998 with kit lens.

not exactly cutting edge but unbeatable at such pricing. it still holds third position of current Sony FF sales (after A73 & A7R2) at amazon:

https://www.amazon.com/Best-Sellers-Electronics-Mirrorless-Cameras/zgbs/electronics/3109924011

interestingly, in the overall digital camera category, for full frame A73 takes the lead (#15).. followed by.. Nikon's D750 (#51):

https://www.amazon.com/Best-Sellers-Electronics-Digital-Cameras/zgbs/electronics/281052/ref=zg_bs_nav_e_2_502394

and at B&H the D850 follows the A73 in "trending and popular" category even though it's been back-ordered for months:

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/buy/New-Arrivals-Trending-And-Popular/ci/19206/N/4102783800

regardless what these rankings mean Sony for sure is about to feel impact with Canikon entering the FF mirrorless market..

[jonpais]

If Sony’s press release ‘reeks of desperation’, one could with equal justification accuse Nikon’s timing of their announcement as a last-ditch effort to stem the tide of their customers from switching over to Sony. But the very idea of Sony - a technological powerhouse - trembling before the likes of Nikon seems ludicrous on its face.

[Robert Collins]

1 hour ago, MurtlandPhoto said:

We still don't know how F mount lenses will perform with Nikon's mirrorless adapters. Say they perform flawlessly, then the change to mirrorless will be pleasant for most users. We'll find out in one week.

I think we sort of do. Conceptually on sensor pdaf cannot really match a dedicated off sensor pdaf array because the off sensor array can have much larger sensors which gather far more light... 

[mercer]

Reading some of these comments is akin to watching the melodrama of Mexican soap operas.

Of course Sony is number 1 when they have no competition in FF and just released a new camera that’s one of their best cameras to date... their next one will be even better.

I’ve always liked the Sony image and I end up buying a Sony camera once a year, or so, and then I remember I’m horrible at grading sLog and I go back to Canon, Nikon or even Panasonic. But the Sony image is so detailed and crisp and modern, what’s not to love about them? Okay... their menus are annoying but it’s not like they’re impossible to figure out.

Point being is that statistics like this are fun, and as a Canon shooter I like to boast that Canon is number 1 in mirrorless in Japan. But in the end, who cares? It doesn’t really matter or mean anything. Depending on the release date of the Z6, Nikon will win the fourth quarter. Next year when Casey Neistat is shooting with a FF Canon mirrorless, Canon will win. Sadly, brand ambassadors on YouTube or Instagram will sell more cameras than the tech, color science, AF capabilities, video specs, burst rates, etc inside the camera ever will.

 

Also, if I was a stills shooter only, I’d probably own a Pentax... yuck. 

[MdB]

16 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

They are doing well partly due to a good product but partly due to zero competition.

No full frame mirrorless Panasonic, no Olympus, no Fuji, no Canon, no Nikon.

That is about to change.

Pretty sure Canon, Nikon, Ricoh and Leica all make an array of full frame cameras. Granted most of them not mirrorless. 

It speaks volumes about the popularity of mirrorless, people seem to be missing that about this press release. 

14 hours ago, Trek of Joy said:

This announcement reeks of desperation, the a7III and the largely ignored Pentax K1.2 are the only FF bodies released in the last 6 months. They have a new camera, they should be #1.

So when the K1 II launched Pentax were #1? That seems to be the logic here. You're making the assumption that everyone is on an equal footing and therefore the brand with the latest release gets boosted to the top spot (temporarily). That is definitely NOT the case. Most Canon fanboys will gleefully state (when someone pans the lacklustre 6D II for example) "oh but it outsells the whole A7 range 5:1..." which is absolute bunk and has been for years. 

14 hours ago, Robert Collins said:

The market share numbers are exaggerated by the fact that neither Canon or Nikon have launched a new FF in the past year.

You do realise how little sense that makes? Are you just repeating what every other numpty is saying? 

14 hours ago, Robert Collins said:

I tend to disagree with most people here about the ergonomics.

Can definitely agree on this. 

14 hours ago, Robert Collins said:

I will be super impressed if Nikon comes out with a better mirrorless than Sony (I will be totally gobsmacked if Canon does). I don’t think Nikon actually needs a better mirrorless to outsell Sony -their brand name should do that with a fairly solid offering.

Honestly I cannot see the point of this Nikon branded Sony clone that has fanboys drooling (and suddenly retracting everything they ever said about mirrorless). I also don't think that Nikon is the dominant brand that people think it is. Just take a look at their last mirrorless effort... abandoned. Now take a look at their action cameras... abandoned. They couldn't get a foothold in either market. Now look at how weak the EOS M line was, abandoned in the US immediately after launch. BUT the Canon name has built it up as a power in asian markets. Canon can do that, Nikon couldn't. Nikon couldn't beat (or even compete) with Sony in the 1" market. 

14 hours ago, webrunner5 said:

f you ever hold the top end Canon, Nikon bodies, like the1DX, the D5 you Would like them, heck love them. They fit in your hand like a glove, and don't seem to weigh anything like they look like they would, and are balanced it seems no matter the lens on them. They are magic.

Disagree. My latest is a 1DC, but have had pro bodies dating back to the Nikon D1. My 1DC feels nothing like you describe. 

14 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

Sony need to work on the X factor and look beyond the scientific.

Couldn't agree more. More RX1 and RX10 IMO. But it isn't about controls, or what people crassly call 'colour science'. I just almost never feel good about images when I capture them on a Sony. I know I can make them good in post, but they simply don't jump out. Ergonomics and menus and features and lenses and abilities are all top notch, better than most I would argue. Yep, including menus. But the results just don't feel good. 

14 hours ago, webrunner5 said:

But have not tried say a Fuji XT2

Fuji's lack of grip pre-X-H1 is a real put off for me. Works ok on an extra wide X-Pro2 with small primes... For everything else they're kind of garbage. It's just a shame a lot of the actual controls went backward with the X-H1 over the X-T2. 

12 hours ago, kye said:

no-one is saying "oh, but that 6K downsampling resolution!".

People do all the time. It is genuinely head and shoulders above basically everything in the hybrid market and people notice. They also say 'oh that crop' or 'oh that terrible codec' when talking about things like 5D IV, or 'oh that useless AF' or obviously the mount when talking about Nikon. Though I would take the 5D IV for much of the reasons you state. 

12 hours ago, webrunner5 said:

I doubt the majority of Nikon, Canon shooters ever even use Video on their cameras. So buying the latest and greatest ones for taking Photos is stupid to me. What the hell other than HDR, which I hate on photos, has evolved in them the last 5 years other than some low light ability. You aren't going to shoot photos at 50,000 ISO anyways.

A Nikon D750 or a D800, D4s is still good enough for photos. And Nikon has always had crazy good Photo AF on their higher end cameras. Better than Canon has, well at least a hell of a lot easier to get it to work right AF.

Almost too much to take in here. Clear to say though that photo isn't a high priority for you and that's fair (as well as being a really swell place to be in that you're spoilt for choice at absolutely minimal outlay - so yay!). 

11 hours ago, jonpais said:

have allowed Sony to take the lead where video is concerned

Yep. I find it remarkable that the anti-Sony crowd (lets call them fanboys) have being saying for so long 'oh those mirrorless toys, nobody wants those' and claiming that Sony is full of it when it comes to these sales numbers because according to their own (completely nonsense) calculations that nobody ever buys these cameras ever and it's only because Nikon can't keep up with demand for the D850... blah, blah, blah... 

Let me ask them this: If that is true, that nobody wants these cameras - WHY IS YOUR FAVOURITE BRAND(S) COPYING THEM ALMOST TO THE LETTER? There is clearly no market for these things, yet they've just put ALL their eggs in to that basket? Unbelievable. 

11 hours ago, webrunner5 said:

Sony has pretty much taken the lead on Video since day one. I don't see that changing anytime soon either. Broadcast TV is just about dominated by Sony. And that is crazy big money Networks pay out. Scary money.

Yes but the people making these claims have absolutely zero clue just how much Sony is in that market. Like how the people claim some kind of superiority that their brand is being used by the newspapers to capture still images for the World Cup or Olympics, while not reading those platforms and watching the game(s) delivered to them on Sony broadcast systems costing 100x what was spent on the photography. Mind boggling. Oh and then make little fanboy jokes about how there is Sony branding at the stadium. 

10 hours ago, Cinegain said:

They were reluctant to get 4K into consumer cameras. When they did... they put a huge crop on it. Stuff like that is just inexcusable. Will FF high-end mirrorless be any different? I mean... was the 5DmkIV any different?

I actually don't think they were capable of it when that camera came out. Next round they have the tech, whether they implement it or treat us with disdain (again) remains to be seen. I don't think any brand can just sit idle at this time. 

9 hours ago, noone said:

Even though my A7s has died, and is likely a very expensive fix, I still rate it by far my all time favourite camera and I really do love it

The original had some really special mojo. I too would rate it as one of my favourite ever cameras (stills and video). It's a shame in many ways that they cow tailed and went with a more DSLR-mini design in latter models. The original body had a more modern and dare I say premium design to it that fit (I felt) better with the mirrorless ethos (plus the S was the last and most refined of the original design). They also designed much prettier lenses then too, plus they didn't make everything enormous. I may just have to own one for the third time. 

9 hours ago, kye said:

Different tools for different folks.  Film-Making is Art after all

Indeed and well said. Though I would say filmmaking is art and science. 

9 hours ago, kye said:

They tend to say things like "I know camera X only shoots in soft 1080, weighs 25kg, battery life is 12 minutes, sound is unusable, and you need an engineering degree to operate the menus, BUT <insert subjective comments about the feel of the footage here> and that's why I choose it".

And the perfect example of this is the Sony F35  

 

[webrunner5]

20 minutes ago, MdB said:

Disagree. My latest is a 1DC, but have had pro bodies dating back to the Nikon D1. My 1DC feels nothing like you describe. 

 

It is the same body as a 1Dx. You are telling me that that camera feels like crap in your hands? I haven never owned a 1DC, but they can't just suck? That every Canon sports shooter is using a camera body they hate? Eh there is like 4 Nikon bodies, and 300 Canon bodies at a sports event. Canon lenses can't be that much better that people suffer with a useless body just to use them. 

I have owned both Canon and Nikon Pro bodies and I don't see much difference in the feel of them. Sure you could not use both in pressure situations, they are too much different in their layouts and the way the lens rotate to attach, un attach. Both company's have got them about as good as you can make a camera body. But I have found that Nikon has a lot less options on how to set up AF for different situations, and that is a Good thing. Canon makes it Way too complex and confusing.

I want a camera that works, not one I have to work to make it work!  ?

[Trek of Joy]

1 hour ago, jonpais said:

If Sony’s press release ‘reeks of desperation’, one could with equal justification accuse Nikon’s timing of their announcement as a last-ditch effort to stem the tide of their customers from switching over to Sony. But the very idea of Sony - a technological powerhouse - trembling before the likes of Nikon seems ludicrous on its face.

I never said anything about Sony trembling before anyone, your words not mine. Putting a bit of useless sales info - 4 out of 10 in a small niche segment of the market, over a short period of time - before the Nikon release is just a bunch of hand waving, "don't look at that sweet Nikon grip or the 58/0.95 lens, look here". When Ford says the F-series is the best selling vehicle in the US for 40 straight years, that has some teeth. This does not.

Nikon still owns 25% of the market, about double Sony's share, it doesn't appear their customers are running en masse toward the Sony light. Their timing, like Canon's, fits their business model. For years people have been saying the DSLR is dead and so on, yet CaNikon still owns 75% of the market. They aren't last ditch for anything, an overwhelming majority of ILC owners still shoot with DSLR's. Even in a declining market, there's plenty of room for more players.

Chris

3 hours ago, IronFilm said:

There are three kinds of lies:

Lies.

Damned lies. 

And statistics. 

(I say this as a mathematics graduate myself!) 

So true

[MdB]

3 hours ago, Robert Collins said:

Consider this. Take a D850 owner who likes its form factor and OVF, has US$15,000 of F mount lenses and doesnt shoot video (my guess, is that most of them dont). And let's heroically assume that Nikon comes out with a 45mp mirrorless that is as good as the A7riii in a 'more ergonomic' form factor. What possible reason would the D850 owner have to switch to Nikon mirrorless (or any other) when their existing lenses wont work nearly as well on the new camera or they have to sell their lenses and buy anew? I dont really see what mirrorless brings to a 'core' D850 owner now or in the future (well apart from silent shooting with a VF). And so Nikon mirrorless and DSLRs are likely to have to live somewhat uncomfortably side by side for a long, long time.

Consider this: The person you describe is essentially not going to be buying ANYTHING. They are therefore no longer part of the market and manufacturers can't really make them something they need. So nobody is gunning for that non-existent market. However they MIGHT be able to snare a few of those from that group that want to downsize (reducing business, changing focus, retiring etc) or want a smaller companion option without the compromises. Nobody with a D850 and $15k worth of lenses is dragging that around to picnics. They are exactly the sort of market that might not be satisfied with just a smartphone. This becomes a 'dabble' system. 

New buyers building new systems from scratch are buying mirrorless. These manufacturers know that, that's why they are pursuing it. They can't live off their stalwarts forever. 

One of the BIGGEST things Sony are claiming (that again nobody seems to be picking up on nor understanding), is not that they are poaching Canon and Nikon sales, that they are actually building new sales from non-existing customers at a really significant rate. In a shrinking market that is a huge deal. Fanboys seem to want to get caught up in whatever else, to me that is the most signifiant thing. 

1 hour ago, MurtlandPhoto said:

We still don't know how F mount lenses will perform with Nikon's mirrorless adapters. Say they perform flawlessly, then the change to mirrorless will be pleasant for most users. We'll find out in one week.

I don't think we will. The product will be announced, but I don't think details like how well adapted lenses work will be available for some time yet. 

1 hour ago, jonpais said:

If Sony’s press release ‘reeks of desperation’, one could with equal justification accuse Nikon’s timing of their announcement as a last-ditch effort to stem the tide of their customers from switching over to Sony. But the very idea of Sony - a technological powerhouse - trembling before the likes of Nikon seems ludicrous on its face.

Exactly. Nikon has been particularly hard hit by all this change. I don't think the 23rd is about launching a product (I don't think it will be hitting stores for months), it is a desperate attempt and plea to 'wait'. 

 

36 minutes ago, Robert Collins said:

I think we sort of do. Conceptually on sensor pdaf cannot really match a dedicated off sensor pdaf array because the off sensor array can have much larger sensors which gather far more light... 

Well on sensor can have many more sites that collectively gather more light. My M50 mostly out focuses my 1DC, especially in low light. My (sold) A73 definitely out focussed the 1DC in low light. I think this is an incredibly outdated notion. 

 

36 minutes ago, mercer said:

Of course Sony is number 1 when they have no competition in FF and just released a new camera that’s one of their best cameras to date... their next one will be even better.

Again strongly disagree. That's assuming that Sony has the market strength to reach number 1 just because they have the newest release. Most of the fanboys out there would disagree Sony was ever in such a position. It's never been the case in the past that 'just because' Sony have the newest one out they are also definitely in #1. I mean Nikon have never been #1 just because they had a newer model than Canon before. It's a silly notion being spread around to downplay the significance of this shift. There has ALWAYS been a duopoly and now that is being shattered. This is incredibly good times for us (the consumers) that I don't know why people are getting their backs up about it (elsewhere, not saying that's happening here). 

40 minutes ago, mercer said:

I’ve always liked the Sony image and I end up buying a Sony camera once a year, or so, and then I remember I’m horrible at grading sLog and I go back to Canon, Nikon or even Panasonic. But the Sony image is so detailed and crisp and modern, what’s not to love about them? Okay... their menus are annoying but it’s not like they’re impossible to figure out.

You know you don't have to use Log right  I think it is one of the downfalls of the Sony's - They give you Log in everything, so we feel compelled to use it! They are capable of outputting a decent ready-to-use picture too. 

42 minutes ago, mercer said:

Point being is that statistics like this are fun, and as a Canon shooter I like to boast that Canon is number 1 in mirrorless in Japan. But in the end, who cares? It doesn’t really matter or mean anything. Depending on the release date of the Z6, Nikon will win the fourth quarter. Next year when Casey Neistat is shooting with a FF Canon mirrorless, Canon will win. Sadly, brand ambassadors on YouTube or Instagram will sell more cameras than the tech, color science, AF capabilities, video specs, burst rates, etc inside the camera ever will.

Personally have never cared who is number one. But I agree, it will be swings and roundabouts. It will be nice to have even more options. 

43 minutes ago, mercer said:

Also, if I was a stills shooter only, I’d probably own a Pentax... yuck. 

645Z is a wonderful beast

[Trek of Joy]

23 minutes ago, MdB said:

So when the K1 II launched Pentax were #1? That seems to be the logic here. You're making the assumption that everyone is on an equal footing and therefore the brand with the latest release gets boosted to the top spot (temporarily). That is definitely NOT the case. Most Canon fanboys will gleefully state (when someone pans the lacklustre 6D II for example) "oh but it outsells the whole A7 range 5:1..." which is absolute bunk and has been for years. 

Not making any assumptions, you're reading things into what I said. The a7III was the only major release in a small segment and the timeframe is a small sample size. That's all.

As to  6d vs A7 sales, without any numbers to back any claims, that's just an assumption.

3 minutes ago, MdB said:

I mean Nikon have never been #1 just because they had a newer model than Canon before. It's a silly notion being spread around to downplay the significance of this shift. There has ALWAYS been a duopoly and now that is being shattered. 

The d850 was #1 FF body over the holiday season, Nikon released an equally insignificant update earlier this year. Overall numbers still show the duopoly has not been shattered.

[jonpais]

Release date 2019. ?

[webrunner5]

48 minutes ago, MdB said:

Yes but the people making these claims have absolutely zero clue just how much Sony is in that market. Like how the people claim some kind of superiority that their brand is being used by the newspapers to capture still images for the World Cup or Olympics, while not reading those platforms and watching the game(s) delivered to them on Sony broadcast systems costing 100x what was spent on the photography. Mind boggling. Oh and then make little fanboy jokes about how there is Sony branding at the stadium. 

Yeah but I worked in the Broadcasting Industry. Do you??

[jonpais]

6 minutes ago, webrunner5 said:

Yeah but I worked in the Broadcasting Industry. Do you??

I thought he was agreeing with you. ?

[MdB]

5 minutes ago, webrunner5 said:

It is the same body as a 1Dx. You are telling me that that camera feels like crap in your hands? I haven never owned a 1DC, but they can't just suck? That every Canon sports shooter is using a camera body they hate? Eh there is like 4 Nikon bodies, and 300 Canon bodies at a sports event. Canon lenses can't be that much better that people suffer with a useless body just to use them.

I didn't say it sucks, I also don't think it is weightless and magical. I think it is partly a very utilitarian design and I think that it is based on a nearly 30 year old design in a market that is well known for not liking change. I would argue I much prefer a C200 over a Sony PDW-900, but ENG stalwarts still run around with big ol' ENG cams. 

I think it works well as a body hanging off a big long heavy lens with a monopod propped underneath where the weight isn't on the wrist and the body is there for control and swinging things around. I think when you have a stumpy and heavy lens, like my Sigma Art 85 or the 105 Art, then the extra heft of the body is actually not good at all. Even with modestly heavy lenses. At that point the smaller body is actually better IMHO. 

11 minutes ago, webrunner5 said:

I want a camera that works, not one I have to work to make it work! 

Canon's system is far from complicated. But their tracking is just not as well set up or works as well. Saying that, most people using them aren't using the famed tracking modes anyway. In typical AF-C Canon is still faster than Nikon (and very easy to use). 

 

11 minutes ago, Trek of Joy said:

Nikon still owns 25% of the market, about double Sony's share, it doesn't appear their customers are running en masse toward the Sony light. Their timing, like Canon's, fits their business model. For years people have been saying the DSLR is dead and so on, yet CaNikon still owns 75% of the market. They aren't last ditch for anything, an overwhelming majority of ILC owners still shoot with DSLR's. Even in a declining market, there's plenty of room for more players.

True. Canon are flooding the bottom of the market with dozens of entry level DSLRs. But the funny thing is, in these discussion forums NOBODY cares about those. And in the product space we do care about, Sony just took the top spot in North America. 

8 minutes ago, Trek of Joy said:

Not making any assumptions, you're reading things into what I said. The a7III was the only major release in a small segment and the timeframe is a small sample size. That's all.

Of course you are. You are stating that it is obvious that Sony are taking this spot because they are the only ones with a recent release. This couldn't be further from the truth and is a device many are using to downplay the significance of this announcement. It isn't a small sample size at all. It is half a financial year in one of the biggest markets on the planet. Sample sizes don't get much bigger. I love how Canon make these announcements every 6 months and everyone just nods along. Every time Sony say something similar everyone disagrees. 

12 minutes ago, Trek of Joy said:

The d850 was #1 FF body over the holiday season, Nikon released an equally insignificant update earlier this year. Overall numbers still show the duopoly has not been shattered.

Of course it does. Do you care how many 1500Ds Canon sold? How about D3400s Nikon dropped? In the higher end of the market (not the top end), Sony have just proven that they can not only exceed Nikon in #2, but Canon in #1. Yes Nikon claimed something similar earlier this year. Again that's significant in that Canon have held the #1 spot for so long, to see this tidal wave of change will force them to adjust. 

15 minutes ago, Trek of Joy said:

As to  6d vs A7 sales, without any numbers to back any claims, that's just an assumption.

The numbers are literally there, in this release and you want to try and still make that claim? Are you serious? Sony outsold Canon over half a year with their A7 (and A9) products over the entire portfolio of FF products from Canon. That is a far cry from the claims the 6D II (on it's own) would outsell the entire Sony catalogue. I know for a fact that people have a VERY skewed perception of how much Canon actually sell of these things vs Sony (and others). Also if you look on ANY sales chart you can find, a number of individual Sony FF models will be outselling the 6D II. That's one model on it's own outselling the Canon on it's own. Same can be said about the 5D IV and 1DX II. None of these have ever been particularly hot sellers at any time. 

[webrunner5]

5 minutes ago, jonpais said:

I thought he was agreeing with you. ?

Hell I if know. He tends to ramble on and I am old. ☹️