Autofocus vs codec for guerrilla style

[Ingerson]

Story is king and choose the right tool for the job.

Now, with that out of the way: I'm looking to buy my first camera for video after making my first short film on the DVX200 and my next one on my phone (really enjoying this film making thingy!)

I come from street photography where I got raw and great AF but now I have to make a choice for video, pulling double duties as director and DP/operator shooting guerrilla style with either no budget or a very slim one.

What are your thoughts on choosing between AF with compressed codec (like the A7III) vs great codec but pulling focus yourself on a smaller sensor (Blackmagic pocket/micro/4k)?

The autofocus would allow you to take a big technical part out of the creative work, leaving you with framing only. But then you are stuck with a very compressed codec which isn’t very forgiving in post if you don’t get it right in camera.

4K, slowmotion and price aren't really relevant to me.

What would you choose in this situation?

[Anaconda_]

I would 100% go with a better codec. For the most part, as long as you're in focus, everything else can be fixed in post with the proper codecs.

Aside from that, seeing a hunting AF in a video drives me crazy, and is big enough reason for me to never even turn AF on. If you slip out of focus manually, it can look stylish and add to the image. If AF goes out, it looks terrible.

If you're making a short film, AF is even less important as I assume the actors will have fixed paths while they're moving, so you can practice pulling focus. 

[jonpais]

And it just so happens that focus pulling with the a7 III works great as well and the image quality is beautiful. But yeah, you're never going to have the flexibility of the P4K's RAW.

[kye]

Totally agree with @Anaconda_ - assuming you can get things in focus then go with the better codec.

Of course, you should make sure that whatever camera you get fulfils all your needs in terms of lenses, battery life, IBIS, and everything else.  Codec is great but there's more to a camera than just that.  You should also be aware of how good the A7III images are - @jonpais has shared some lovely ones here.

[webrunner5]

The BM PK4 is probably going to be just like the BMPCC. A pain in the ass to use with pretty amazing output. It is not going to AF worth crap probably, no IBIS, no preset of just shoot and post to the web video, not going to use it on vacation, give it to your wife to take shots of the kids, on and on.  Bu it will be great LoL.

The Sony A7 mk III is the jack of all trades. And a master at a lot of the trades.  Probably the best Point n Shoot ever made. Other than better codecs I can't see nuch it is lacking in other than Big MP for landscape photos.

Though choice no doubt. PK4, Kind of a poor mans Cine camera, or A7 mk III, an all arounder that can get the job done with ease other than a really great Cine look.

 

[IronFilm]

17 hours ago, Ingerson said:

 

What are your thoughts on choosing between AF with compressed codec (like the A7III) vs great codec but pulling focus yourself on a smaller sensor (Blackmagic pocket/micro/4k)?

 

Having the "smaller" sensor will mean you'll have an easier job nailing manual focus than with the oversized a7 sensor. 

And on the topic of the "smaller" sensor: it actually is closer to the traditional Super 35mm size than the vistavision a7 sensor is. 

[jonpais]

1 hour ago, IronFilm said:

1. Having the "smaller" sensor will mean you'll have an easier job nailing manual focus than with the oversized a7 sensor. 
 

My own experience has been that achieving and maintaining correct focus is much easier with the a7 III than the GH5. (I realize this sounds counter-intuitive, but focus peaking is better on the Sony). If the artistic intent is to keep identical separation between subject and background, you would either close the iris down some two stops on the Sony or open it up by the same amount on the Panasonic. 

1 hour ago, IronFilm said:

2. And on the topic of the "smaller" sensor: it actually is closer to the traditional Super 35mm size than the vistavision a7 sensor is. 

The trend in cinema cameras is toward large format. Nearly every major manufacturer has released or is about to release a large format sensor camera. Nevertheless, it’s still possible to shoot s35mm with the a7 III.

[Tone1k]

For film making, don't rely on AF. It will never be as smart as your brain for choosing what needs to be in focus in your frame unless it's a super simple scene. 

A slight AF hunt during a shot will make the shot unusable unless you can edit around it, especially when it's jerky like you get with most dslr lenses. 

Learn to focus manually. 

 

[jonpais]

Both the GH5 and GH5s have a focus transition feature which works well with straightforward repeatable shots. 

Start video at 5”27’

 

[UncleBobsPhotography]

37 minutes ago, jonpais said:

Both the GH5 and GH5s have a focus transition feature which works well with straightforward repeatable shots. 

Start video at 5”27’

I agree that the focus transition works well in a controlled environment where you are doing the same focus pulls several times, however, I'm somewhat disappointed with how cumbersome it is to set it up and use it in practice. I wish I could set 1 button for focus at 1.4 m, one for focusing on 3.3 m and one at infinite and keep it like that at least until I switch lenses. From my limited use of focus transitions, it seems like it takes very little for the settings to reset, and I also wish I could ask the camera to go to position 1, 2 or 3 without going into the focus transition mode. Does anyone have any tips on how to use it more efficiently?

[jonpais]

1 minute ago, UncleBobsPhotography said:

Does anyone have any tips on how to use it more efficiently?

@BTM_Pix ? ?

[mercer]

Well, if 4K, slow motion and price are irrelevant to you, then I have to ask, are the films you are planning for web distribution, film festivals or fun?

Also you mentioned you come from a street shooter background, well what stills camera and lenses do you already own?

Are you interested in color correction/grading?

For filmmaking, do you prefer the camcorder/cinema camera feel, or do you want to move to a hybrid stills camera?

Also you mentioned that you’re not worried about money, but I must assume there is a minimum and maximum you’d like to spend?

But to answer your question, I don’t know. I chose codec and went with the 5D Mark iii and ML Raw but there are only a few people I would recommend that to.

However, I am in a similar position as you since I am working on no budget films where I am pulling not just double but triple duty as the director, camera man and audio guy, so I understand the desire to make AF easier in that scenario.

I also shoot guerrilla style, so I chose lenses with IS or very wide angle lenses, so I can go handheld. If handheld is important, you may want to consider a camera with IBIS. The obvious choice there is the GH5. It doesn’t have great AF, or even good, but if it’s anything like the FZ2500 I owned, the face tracking is decent. And anybody who wears a lot of hats knows... as long as you cover your angles, you can always cut away if the AF hunts.

But since you shot your first film on a DVX and your second on an iPhone, and 4K isn’t important to you, I’d probably recommend a Canon for AF, it just doesn’t get better than DPAF for tracking and touch screen focus pulls. And if codec is more important to you, but slow motion isn’t, I’d go with the original Pocket cam. You can be under $1000 for either choice and trust me, even on small or no budgets, money keeps exiting your pocket.

[webrunner5]

On 8/18/2018 at 10:37 AM, Ingerson said:

Story is king and choose the right tool for the job.

Now, with that out of the way: I'm looking to buy my first camera for video after making my first short film on the DVX200 and my next one on my phone (really enjoying this film making thingy!)

I come from street photography where I got raw and great AF but now I have to make a choice for video, pulling double duties as director and DP/operator shooting guerrilla style with either no budget or a very slim one.

What are your thoughts on choosing between AF with compressed codec (like the A7III) vs great codec but pulling focus yourself on a smaller sensor (Blackmagic pocket/micro/4k)?

The autofocus would allow you to take a big technical part out of the creative work, leaving you with framing only. But then you are stuck with a very compressed codec which isn’t very forgiving in post if you don’t get it right in camera.

4K, slowmotion and price aren't really relevant to me.

What would you choose in this situation?

I will go back to this video again. I talked to the guy that shot it and he used a BMPCC, Metabones SB, Sigma Art 18-35mm, a couple of lights, and a Smoke Machine. Now if you can make a better looking short than that for less money camera wise, they are going for 475 bucks now, eh I don't know how.

And I would imagine this new BM PK4 will be able to do it, and even add more goodies to it. I would wait to see what it looks like. Might just be the ticket you are looking for. Just might be the camera that a hell of a lot of us are looking for.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T4toxtDfZP4

[kye]

12 hours ago, Tone1k said:

For film making, don't rely on AF. It will never be as smart as your brain for choosing what needs to be in focus in your frame unless it's a super simple scene. 

A slight AF hunt during a shot will make the shot unusable unless you can edit around it, especially when it's jerky like you get with most dslr lenses. 

Learn to focus manually. 

Assuming that during filming:

• you're not too busy operating other equipment to operate the camera
• if you are operating the camera then you have control of focusing (eg, gimbals often prevent MF)
• if you could do MF that you're not too busy doing anything else with the camera
• you can see the image well enough to actually see focus (screen bright enough, focus assists are good enough, etc)

and also assuming that the time spent learning to MF (which is a skill that isn't easy to pick up) isn't better spent doing something else.

Remember, the object of all of this is a high quality finished output, not mad MF skills.  It's better to tell a good story and use AF than to use MF and tell a shitty one.

[webrunner5]

1 hour ago, kye said:

Assuming that during filming:

• you're not too busy operating other equipment to operate the camera
• if you are operating the camera then you have control of focusing (eg, gimbals often prevent MF)
• if you could do MF that you're not too busy doing anything else with the camera
• you can see the image well enough to actually see focus (screen bright enough, focus assists are good enough, etc)

and also assuming that the time spent learning to MF (which is a skill that isn't easy to pick up) isn't better spent doing something else.

Remember, the object of all of this is a high quality finished output, not mad MF skills.  It's better to tell a good story and use AF than to use MF and tell a shitty one.

OR just buy a REALLY wide angle lens and leave it on F8, set to infinity, and have a Big stick with a nail in it to beat people that get closer than, eh say 8 feet from the camera, especially if this guy is close!!!

 

[Tone1k]

4 hours ago, kye said:

Remember, the object of all of this is a high quality finished output, not mad MF skills.  It's better to tell a good story and use AF than to use MF and tell a shitty one.

Good grief.....I hope you're being sarcastic?? Why does the AF or lack thereof change the quality of the story?

Nothing says low quality more than AF hunt.

Id rather watch a good story shot on Betacam with no AF hunt than a good story shot in 8K , 16stops DR with DSLR type AF hunt.

AF is good for some uses, but if you are buying a camera based on AF performance and think you'll just be able to run n gun with AF for every shot, you are mistaken.

 

[jonpais]

9 minutes ago, Tone1k said:

AF is good for some uses, but if you are buying a camera based on AF performance and think you'll just be able to run n gun with AF for every shot, you are mistaken.

He is not mistaken because he never said that. Experienced shooters know when to override AF and switch to manual focus. Alternatively, in AF mode, it is also possible to select the area in which you want tracking. 

[Tone1k]

 

On 8/19/2018 at 12:37 AM, Ingerson said:

What are your thoughts on choosing between AF with compressed codec (like the A7III) vs great codec but pulling focus yourself on a smaller sensor (Blackmagic pocket/micro/4k)?

The autofocus would allow you to take a big technical part out of the creative work, leaving you with framing only

Sounds to me like he/she IS wanting AF to use all the time so that he/she can concentrate on framing and being creative. Doesn't say anywhere that they are wanting it just for gimbal shots etc.....

The thing is, focus IS part of the creative process.

[jonpais]

19 minutes ago, Tone1k said:

 

Sounds to me like he/she IS wanting AF to use all the time so that he/she can concentrate on framing and being creative. 

The think is, focus IS part of the creative process.

BUT HE NEVER SAID ‘all the time’. Those are your words.

Just like if I said I was going to start skateboarding to work in order to reduce my carbon footprint. It doesn’t mean I’m going to skateboard in a thunderstorm. 

Adding the words ‘all the time’ to practically any statement can make it sound absurd. Little different from adding ‘just on Wednesday mornings from 10:00 am till noon’. ?

[Tone1k]

12 minutes ago, jonpais said:

BUT HE NEVER SAID ‘all the time’. Those are your words.

Just like if I said I was going to start skateboarding to work in order to reduce my carbon footprint. It doesn’t mean I’m going to skateboard in a thunderstorm. 

Adding the words ‘all the time’ to practically any statement can make it sound absurd.

How about you let Ingerson clarify what he meant by the statement "The autofocus would allow you to take a big technical part out of the creative work, leaving you with framing only". 

After all, when I said I was going to ride my motorbike to work , i rode it in thunderstorms and all.