C100 - Mark I, Mark II, or just wait???

[Django]

Agreed with the above. With +4 hours of battery life, unlimited record time, dual SD slots, ND filters, internal stereo shotgun mic (and XLRs if needed), Dual Pixel AF, a 4K downscaled to 1080p sensor, uncompressed 4:2:2 recording via HDMI, top handle and pivotable side grip ergonomics allowing steady shots without IBIS, Super35 sensor from the C300, peaking/zebras/waveform assist.. and it's current price tag, the camera still easily surpasses most current cameras in quite few departments..

[kye]

3 hours ago, webrunner5 said:

This is his cost statement.

"BUDGET: Top of my budget is around $1800ish and that would get me a c100, or if I sold my 80d, could be a stretch to get the mk2, but I feel 1 extra job will pay for the rest."

He is not going to bring Anything new to the table from what he already has with a C100, no matter the model. In this day and age a C100 is an antique.

And with 1800 bucks he Ain't buying no (FS5/FS7/LS300/UMP/etc).

His need for quick turn-arounds in the edit suite, and existing Canon lens catalog are pushing him towards Canon, and his budget and need for longer recording times are pushing him to a cinema camera, and the only overlap between those criteria are the C100 models.  I'll also mention to the XC10 / XC15 cameras, just in case the OP isn't aware they exist, but they're probably not a good choice as they have fixed lenses that aren't that fast, and the OP looks like they prefer faster glass.

If he was looking to replace all his cameras then that might open up other systems but right now he's in Canon lock-in mode, just where Canon wants him.  If anyone wants the definitive answer for why Canon is doing so well commercially, this example is the one they should reflect on.

Assuming that we didn't all miss a major difference between the C100 Mk1 and Mk2, the main difference seems to be the 60p.  If so, I think the OP should think about what situations slow-motion actually makes it into their final edits (no point shooting stuff you won't use) and if the C100 would be suitable in that situation.  Eg, if slow-motion is always shot on a gimbal then it's not a good match, but if they are shooting on the monopod with their 'best' camera and are switching back and forth between 30 and 60p then the Mk2 makes sense.  Buying a Mk1 and then have to carry around the 80D and Mk1 because the Mk1 doesn't do something the 80D does is what we're trying to avoid here.

[nigelbb]

You are obviously personally & professionally invested in Canon DSLR for video but for your needs you might be better off with another "proper" camcorder like a Canon XC10.

[MdB]

I don't get the bickering either, the C100 is still a superb camera. For 1080p final output, there is very little even now that makes better images. MOST of them though require you to shoot and edit in 4K and downsample on the way out. C100 allows that great image with a straight 1080p workflow. Also the speed at which one can work with the C100 as a tool over every mirrorless camera out there is just on a totally different level. 

There are some downsides: 

- No slow motion (or pretty garbage slow-mo anyway)

That's about it.

Those who are saying that there is no difference to other Canon DSLRs the OP has apart from NDs - 

Are you joking? Canon DSLRs have AWFUL 1080p output. They have no C-Log. No Wide DR worth talking about. They have no waveforms, you can't magnify view while recording, fiddly and rubbish controls (especially for things like audio), have no unlimited recording times, terrible battery life, way worse low light performance and much more. Apart from being roughly the same sensor format (very roughly, C100 is proper S35) and having the Canon name on the front, there is virtually nothing similar between them. 

Those saying why mention other models... well the OP asked for 'something else'. 

None of the Sony's will AF Canon lenses in video, not really. The A7 III is an ok camera and offers a lot of bang for buck, but I wouldn't recommend one given the OPs needs. Given none of them with AF Canon lenses properly, the A7S would likely be my only other recommendation. It has very very nice 1080p (downsampled in either FF or APS-C), can add XLR adapter, has Log and picture profiles, can have variable NDs built in to the EF adapter. Plus you aren't paying for 4K and other things you don't need. Easy as to hack and get unlimited recording. No issues with overheating in 1080p anyway (same with any of the Sony's, except some have poor 1080p and have to shoot 4K). Can shoot 4K if you need through external recorder. A very, very good 1080p camera. Feels a bit experimental as a 4K camera. External recorders also get rid of the time limit. 

FS700 is also an option, especially one without the 4K RAW upgrade (as it is a lot cheaper). 

Personally I'd get a C100 MkII. Canon aren't about to drop a new camera that will fit into your price bracket. 

Oh a Blackmagic Pocket 4K could be a serious alternative too. 

[IronFilm]

46 minutes ago, MdB said:

FS700 is also an option, especially one without the 4K RAW upgrade (as it is a lot cheaper). 

Yeah it is pretty crazy how a FS700 on eBay sells for around the same as a C100mk1, or even cheaper! A total raging bargain.

[BrunoLandMedia]

1 hour ago, kye said:

His need for quick turn-arounds in the edit suite, and existing Canon lens catalog are pushing him towards Canon, and his budget and need for longer recording times are pushing him to a cinema camera, and the only overlap between those criteria are the C100 models.  I'll also mention to the XC10 / XC15 cameras, just in case the OP isn't aware they exist, but they're probably not a good choice as they have fixed lenses that aren't that fast, and the OP looks like they prefer faster glass.

Yes, the quick turn around is important at my day job. You might not believe how much video one could shoot for a private PK-8 School in the DC area, but I have the hard drives full to prove it. HA. Yes, the XC's have been on the radar, but I feel like they miss the boat with the fixed lenses. 

 

1 hour ago, kye said:

If he was looking to replace all his cameras then that might open up other systems but right now he's in Canon lock-in mode, just where Canon wants him.  If anyone wants the definitive answer for why Canon is doing so well commercially, this example is the one they should reflect on.

And yes, this is SOOOO TRUE. Self admitted. I've been a Canon guy for so long, know the DSRL menus, know what to expect. I have kids, play in a band, and do short videos and stills ALL THE TIME. I am probably pretty annoying to my family and friends, but yes, I am the guy documenting, and for that, I need a DSLR to do both, or I would consider selling ALL the DSLR's for video. 

1 hour ago, kye said:

Assuming that we didn't all miss a major difference between the C100 Mk1 and Mk2, the main difference seems to be the 60p.  If so, I think the OP should think about what situations slow-motion actually makes it into their final edits (no point shooting stuff you won't use) and if the C100 would be suitable in that situation.  Eg, if slow-motion is always shot on a gimbal then it's not a good match, but if they are shooting on the monopod with their 'best' camera and are switching back and forth between 30 and 60p then the Mk2 makes sense.  Buying a Mk1 and then have to carry around the 80D and Mk1 because the Mk1 doesn't do something the 80D does is what we're trying to avoid here.

I actually do use 60p and it's slow mo ability in post all the time. I know it's not 120 + but I my set up and Broll is a huge part of the videos I make. The performance videos might not use 60p at all, but that's also where I really need the No Time Limit, and peaking, and zoom while recording, and all the serious video features my DSLR's don't have. XLR's are huge although my Rode shotgun mic's have been pretty good. 

At this current budget and set up, It seems that if I do get an MK1 for performances, I really will only be pulling it out for those events, interviews when I do them, and when I know I'm not using 60p. I'll be traveling around with the 80d much more often it seems. 

Maybe I need to save more. This is all coming out of my pocket even though I"ll be using it my full time job as well as more private jobs. Cheers

[Django]

Also if AF is important, I find the even basic implementation of Canon's Dual Pixel on the C100s more reliable than the video AF from any current competing camera brand..

[kye]

18 minutes ago, BrunoLandMedia said:

Yes, the quick turn around is important at my day job. You might not believe how much video one could shoot for a private PK-8 School in the DC area, but I have the hard drives full to prove it. HA. Yes, the XC's have been on the radar, but I feel like they miss the boat with the fixed lenses. 

Yes, workflow is a big deal for people who publish frequently, I find that lots of the people on here are down on Canon because they value image quality over having an easier workflow, but if your job is to pump out videos then workflow is more important than image quality.  Plus, for the average person, if it's HD, has nice colours, and has a bit of background blur then it will look amazing

I agree about the XC10.  I'm a fan and own one as my main camera, but I'm looking at upgrading because of the limitations of the lens.  Apart from that it's a great camera.  In a way it's a real lost opportunity.

23 minutes ago, BrunoLandMedia said:

I actually do use 60p and it's slow mo ability in post all the time. I know it's not 120 + but I my set up and Broll is a huge part of the videos I make. The performance videos might not use 60p at all, but that's also where I really need the No Time Limit, and peaking, and zoom while recording, and all the serious video features my DSLR's don't have. XLR's are huge although my Rode shotgun mic's have been pretty good. 

At this current budget and set up, It seems that if I do get an MK1 for performances, I really will only be pulling it out for those events, interviews when I do them, and when I know I'm not using 60p. I'll be traveling around with the 80d much more often it seems. 

Maybe I need to save more. This is all coming out of my pocket even though I"ll be using it my full time job as well as more private jobs. Cheers

I guess if you use 60p all the time then it does matter.

In terms of 120p vs 60p, I think 60p is potentially more useful in many situations.  I don't know how you use it, but I find that 60p makes things look nice, smooth, and kind of gentle in a way, but it doesn't look like a special effect.  120 looks like a special effect to me.  I would imagine that kids smiling and running and things like that would have a nice aesthetic in 60p - I've used it in a couple of my home videos and it's a nice look.  

I notice that really nicely shot TV shows use 60p quite often (probably slowed down to 24p, which is a bigger slow-down than you're doing) and they kind of use it for emotional scenes, like when showing footage but putting music over the top.  The only times that I can think of frequent uses for 120 or slower is food or hair-care commercials!

[jpfilmz]

I'd recommend a C100 MK2 primarily for the EVF and the screen but really you could grab a nice 7in monitor for cheap and be good to go with the C100 MK1.  Also, the C100 MK2 dual pixel AF will face track with the right lenses.  For long form 1080 capture I wouldn't consider any other camera except for the GH5.  It has a great HD image and 4k image and is not over priced.  It's in your price range and the colors match well with canon.

Actually image order: XC10, C100, GH5

 

[BrunoLandMedia]

47 minutes ago, jpfilmz said:

For long form 1080 capture I wouldn't consider any other camera except for the GH5.  It has a great HD image and 4k image and is not over priced.  It's in your price range and the colors match well with canon

Wait, I'm confused. Isn't the GH5 a DSLR?  How would I use that  for long form (I assume you mean no time limit recording) and what lenses would have to buy to make that work. I've heard from just about everone that speed boosters just don't work as well and are never as good as native lenses for M4/3 systems. Now I'm a little confused. Am I missing the boat somewhere?

[MurtlandPhoto]

12 minutes ago, BrunoLandMedia said:

Wait, I'm confused. Isn't the GH5 a DSLR?  How would I use that  for long form (I assume you mean no time limit recording) and what lenses would have to buy to make that work. I've heard from just about everone that speed boosters just don't work as well and are never as good as native lenses for M4/3 systems. Now I'm a little confused. Am I missing the boat somewhere?

Opinions on the GH5 are pretty nuanced. Some people think the camera sucks without a speedboosted lens, others think native is the only way to go, and others think both have their place. Some people think the AF is atrocious, others think it suits their needs just fine. Check around this and other forums. Find GH5 users whose work you like and see how they use their camera to give you an idea of the benefits and detriments.

[newfoundmass]

54 minutes ago, BrunoLandMedia said:

Wait, I'm confused. Isn't the GH5 a DSLR?  How would I use that  for long form (I assume you mean no time limit recording) and what lenses would have to buy to make that work. I've heard from just about everone that speed boosters just don't work as well and are never as good as native lenses for M4/3 systems. Now I'm a little confused. Am I missing the boat somewhere?

The GH5 has no recording limits, so you can record until either your battery dies or your SD cards are full. Panasonic is the only company in the DSLR/DSLM market that doesn't have the recording limit. It produces beautiful video, both in 1080p and 4K. The stabilization is fantastic. It's weakness is auto focus in video (using adapters makes this worse) and low light performance (though it's not as bad as some say.) Canon lenses can be adapted (one of the most popular lenses for the GH5 is the Sigma 18-35 with focal reducer / speed booster) and work decently well manually or using push to focus, but the auto focus isn't the most reliable and is slower than if you used native lenses. I use a GH5 for similar work as you do. 

The GH5 and the Panasonic 12-35mm f/ 2.8 are a great combo. If you want faster glass and don't mind primes, there are some really great prime lenses between Panasonic and Olympus lenses. Speed boosters are fine on the GH5 too, as long as you know what to expect. They work no worse on the GH5 than they do for Sony cameras, etc. 

If you're not interested in 4K and aren't looking to sell your lenses then the C100 is probably the better option. Maybe someone that uses more adapted Canon/EF lenses on the GH5 can chime in, but the only EF lens I use is the Sigma 18-35. The rest are native MFT and adapted vintage lenses. 

[MdB]

1 hour ago, BrunoLandMedia said:

Wait, I'm confused. Isn't the GH5 a DSLR?  How would I use that  for long form (I assume you mean no time limit recording) and what lenses would have to buy to make that work. I've heard from just about everone that speed boosters just don't work as well and are never as good as native lenses for M4/3 systems. Now I'm a little confused. Am I missing the boat somewhere?

They aren’t perfect, but they do work really well. Another advantage of that route is the option to use lenses without the SB and just use a ‘smart’ adapter instead, gaining extra reach. 

I haven’t seen anything out of the GH5 that I really loved, but it does offer a fair bit of bang for buck. But if one doesn’t care about 4K I hardly see the GH5’s advantages making much sense. For that type of user probably better off with an A7 III that they don’t need Speedbooster for. 

[jpfilmz]

2 hours ago, BrunoLandMedia said:

Wait, I'm confused. Isn't the GH5 a DSLR?  How would I use that  for long form (I assume you mean no time limit recording) and what lenses would have to buy to make that work. I've heard from just about everone that speed boosters just don't work as well and are never as good as native lenses for M4/3 systems. Now I'm a little confused. Am I missing the boat somewhere?

Yes no record timelimits, better codecs, better stabilization features, better viewfinder, better screen, and with a proper metabones speedbooster you’ll be fine with all your canon glass and in low light situations. You’ll need a rode videomic pro though and to get familiar with the menu system.  Still less than a C100mk 2 but no built in NDs, XLR, Dual Pixel AF performance. But if you want to structly hover in the $1800 range then the C100 MK 1 is the way to go.

[IronFilm]

12 hours ago, BrunoLandMedia said:

Wait, I'm confused. Isn't the GH5 a DSLR?  How would I use that  for long form (I assume you mean no time limit recording) and what lenses would have to buy to make that work. I've heard from just about everone that speed boosters just don't work as well and are never as good as native lenses for M4/3 systems. Now I'm a little confused. Am I missing the boat somewhere?

All the GH series have been able to be purchased (I think) without a time limit.

Even many of the other Panasonic mirrorless have no limit with a hack. 

Is why I filmed weddings in the past with a handful of Panasonic mirrorless cameras:

1) no time limit
2) video quality
3) low cost
4) decent battery life
5) can use almost any lenses in the world

[webrunner5]

Even the older Sony cameras can be hacked for endless video recording time. That is not as big as a problem as it used to be for Mirrorless cameras. Plus I read somewhere that the EU was dropping that stupid ruling on it has to be a camcorder thing anyways in 2019. Boy right up with the times arn't they! There were some greased palms in that deal you can bet your ass at the start.

 

 

[ntblowz]

20 minutes ago, webrunner5 said:

Even the older Sony cameras can be hacked for endless video recording time. That is not as big as a problem as it used to be for Mirrorless cameras.

 

 

Unfortunately the newer Sony cameras cant be hacked, they taking out the app in camera.  My friend's friend just burned his A7S sensor for shooting over 3hrs straight..

[webrunner5]

17 minutes ago, ntblowz said:

  My friend's friend just burned his A7S sensor for shooting over 3hrs straight..

Hmm never heard of that happening. Maybe he was doing Sun Spots? ?

[webrunner5]

I have never shot my A7s in 4K so I have no clue how hot they get doing that.  Not counting I would have to have a Car Battery to run that long even in 1080p on mine LoL.

 

[ntblowz]

2 hours ago, webrunner5 said:

Hmm never heard of that happening. Maybe he was doing Sun Spots? ?

Yeah first time for me to hear the sensor actually get burned, unfortunately I did encounter Sony A7sII overheat and shut down on me.

 

 

 

This is the combo I use for event, unlimited recording time, full size HDMI out, long battery  (well C100mKII battery is much longer with bigger battery), and never overheat whatsoever.