Nikon Z6 features 4K N-LOG, 10bit HDMI output and 120fps 1080p

[thebrothersthre3]

17 minutes ago, IronFilm said:

What would "force" the FS7 to be "replaced"?

It won't be 8K any time soon. The FS7 is a very solid camera which I bet will be a work horse for years to come. 

I wouldn't rent a C200!

Would be nothing less than a C300mk2 or FS7 (with XDCA back) or EVA1

Why not! If you need RAW its got it internal unlike the C300. 

 

[IronFilm]

7 hours ago, Django said:

Yeah but it became the industry standard for a reason. again the ecosystem. By the time FS7 was getting popular, most low to mid videographers had moved over to Sony Alpha mirrorless system. Same E-mount wether APS-C, FF or S35. Metabones/Adapters for every lens possible. Sony also came out with the cheaper FS5 and all that created strong incentive to rent/buy an FS7 when moving up. Very clever of Sony

Sony absolutely dominated with the FS7 because they were the first to offer 4K at that price point in camera. (which wasn't a mirrorless/DSLR)

Then on top of that they also had it doing 4K 10bit 60fps internal! And 180fps HD continuous slow motion. 

When it comes to specs nothing could compete for a very long time. 

Arguable there is still NOTHING which can compete. 

The C300mk2 is a competitor, but doesn't match (let alone beat) the Fs7 on specs. Ditto the EVA1. The URSA Mini Pro gets close indeed, but then you have to deal with the lower base ISO and the brand name of BMD can never compete against "Sony"

This is why the FS7 was #1, as it was first to market with some really great specs, and it remains #1 as nothing matches it yet. 

2 minutes ago, thebrothersthre3 said:

Why not! If you need RAW its got it internal unlike the C300. 

 

Most netflix productions do not need raw! 

And the C200 is missing out some key features like TC, or multiple SDI outputs 

7 hours ago, Django said:

Panasonic are trying to go after that market with GH5/S1/EVA1 ecosystem. Problem is those 3 cameras have different mounts & sensor sizes. It's a mess and not really taking off.. they alienated their own MFT user base by going EF mount on EVA1.. and now expensive L mount for S1. Folks that'll switch systems easily need a consistent solution for their lens collection.

 

Don't forget Varicam LT / S35 for yet another new mount to throw in there.....  PL mount!
(although you can swap them to EF, so at least matching with the EVA1. But you're left with this big divide which can't be easily crossed when you're got new blood coming up with mirrorless Panasonic cameras, where can they go to? You run a very high risk they might then leak to other systems)

14 minutes ago, webrunner5 said:

Only trouble is the FS7 it ends up being a pretty big package with the XDCA back.

 

 

Still a pretty lightweight package! Only the Panasonic EVA1 can really compete against it as an even smaller TC cinema camera

[webrunner5]

18 minutes ago, IronFilm said:

 

Still a pretty lightweight package! Only the Panasonic EVA1 can really compete against it as an even smaller TC cinema camera

Yeah they are a smaller package overall than that picture shows. A camera i was amazed at is how damn big the Canon C700 is. Wow. With a Cine Zoom on it, and a V Battery, Yikes, It felt bigger than the old ENG cameras, but not as heavy, which is nice. It balanced well with the Canon zoom, so I guess they know what they are doing. I had just put down a Sony FS5 so probably not a fair judgment lol. They seem almost to me too small.

[thebrothersthre3]

2 hours ago, webrunner5 said:

Yeah they are a smaller package overall than that picture shows. A camera i was amazed at is how damn big the Canon C700 is. Wow. With a Cine Zoom on it, and a V Battery, Yikes, It felt bigger than the old ENG cameras, but not as heavy, which is nice. It balanced well with the Canon zoom, so I guess they know what they are doing. I had just put down a Sony FS5 so probably not a fair judgment lol. They seem almost to me too small.

Yeah the FS5 is really nice and small. I feel like with Z-cam rising that type of form factor is the future.

[BasiliskFilm]

6 hours ago, IronFilm said:

Waiting for Nikon to release a "Z60" DX mirrorless to take on the Fujifilm X-T30 and Panasonic G95 etc, then Nikon will have a very attractively priced sub $1K camera to fight against everyone in the sub $2K market as well. 

Is it really worth entering the mirrorless crop frame market? It would need a whole lot of extra lenses for it to make sense, and even Sony who have sold shedloads of A6xxx bodies hasn't really got serious with dedicated APS-C lenses. Would Nikon actually produce a more compact body, when one of the things that folk appreciate about the Z series (over Sony) is the useability and ergonomics? Canon, Sony, Fuji, Panasonic, Olympus, started with smaller sensors on mirrorless before full frame was practical, but having cracked it, Nikon should keep with full frame (with a good crop mode), and possibly bring out a stripped down low end model like Canon have, rather than waste resources on a backward looking crop format body. Filmakers can shoot in S35 on the current Z models, and most stills shooters appreciate the benefits of a FF sensor.

[IronFilm]

4 hours ago, BasiliskFilm said:

Is it really worth entering the mirrorless crop frame market? It would need a whole lot of extra lenses for it to make sense, and even Sony who have sold shedloads of A6xxx bodies hasn't really got serious with dedicated APS-C lenses.

 

Oh Nikon could treat DX mirrorless lenses the same way they've treated DX lenses so far (i.e. almost completely ignored it, aside from a bunch of a consumer grade zooms, otherwise very little) and probably still get away with it!

However, DX cameras are by far the biggest selling category of cameras for Nikon. Thus Nikon would have to be the biggest fools ever to ignore them completely now when doing the change over to mirrorless. 

 

[Skip77]

2 hours ago, IronFilm said:

 

Oh Nikon could treat DX mirrorless lenses the same way they've treated DX lenses so far (i.e. almost completely ignored it, aside from a bunch of a consumer grade zooms, otherwise very little) and probably still get away with it!

However, DX cameras are by far the biggest selling category of cameras for Nikon. Thus Nikon would have to be the biggest fools ever to ignore them completely now when doing the change over to mirrorless. 

 

Nikon will get into the crop sensor mirrorless market for sure. With DX lenses and Sony, Fuji and Panasonic in the market it's a no brainer. Not everyone wants full frame and limitations on full frame makes it easier on crop sensor. 

[webrunner5]

38 minutes ago, Skip77 said:

Nikon will get into the crop sensor mirrorless market for sure. With DX lenses and Sony, Fuji and Panasonic in the market it's a no brainer. Not everyone wants full frame and limitations on full frame makes it easier on crop sensor. 

True, but if they come out with the Z mount on them I think they are doomed. You might as well buy a cheap FF, which Nikon is going to have to do to compete with e Canon RS. People are not going to pay more money for a lens than the camera cost in that bracket. Plus with the rise of Smartphones, I am not sure how many customers are really even left in the APSC market anymore. It really might not even be worth Nikons effort. The real hardcore enthusiasts APSC users are firmly in the Fuji, Pentax camp anyways. They are the ones that throw money at them. I really doubt Mom and Pop are running out in droves to buy cheap DSLRs, or Mirrorless cameras now. Those days are over with.

Actually camera sales of any kind are nearing a end for anyone but hardcore shooters. Couple more advances on Smartphones and it is why even bother for the average user. Sure we might buy them, but that is not enough people to bother to even make them unless they raise the price to crazy money again like they were 6 years ago. I sure as heck would not want to be in the camera business long term as of now. It has to be a dead end road selling in any volume to make it worth it, Mirrorless or not.

[Towd]

Yeah, I remember reading somewhere that the cost for a full frame chip is only a $100-$150 more than an APSC.  Why would Nikon want to split their time catering to that market when they need to stay busy filling out an offering of full frame lenses?

If you want to shoot super 35 on a Nikon, just use the crop mode.  I think the APSC format was a compromise due to the limitations of the technology of the time.  Nikon and Canon are probably happy to leave it behind on their new generation of mounts.  I won't be surprised to see full frame Nikons and Canons in the $500-$600 range in a few years.

Long term, I kind of see the market shaking out into M43 for those who want small travel cameras with a few more features and options than smartphones.  Full frames with crop modes for the mid range, and Medium format for crazies who want to go for a niche look.  Hell sometime in the next 10 years I wouldn't be surprised to see an IMAX digital sensor for big budget and special venue projects.

[KnightsFan]

5 hours ago, Towd said:

Yeah, I remember reading somewhere that the cost for a full frame chip is only a $100-$150 more than an APSC.

I've read that FF is more expensive than APS-C because the same number of defects on a wafer will mean a lower percentage yield if you are cutting larger sensors off of that wafer. In other words, 5 defects on a wafer that will be cut into 100 sensors could mean 5 defective sensors and 95 good ones, 95% yield in the worst case. If you are only cutting 4 sensors off of that wafer, those same 5 defects give you a 75% yield at best.

The conclusion is that a large sensor is actually more expensive per sq. mm than a smaller sensor. I'm not sure what the actual numbers are--maybe it is just a $150 difference as you read.

[IronFilm]

11 hours ago, webrunner5 said:

True, but if they come out with the Z mount on them I think they are doomed.

The DX mirrorless is 99.99999% certain to use Z Mount

Nikon won't make the mistake of having different EOS M and EOS RF mounts. 
 

 

11 hours ago, webrunner5 said:

Plus with the rise of Smartphones, I am not sure how many customers are really even left in the APSC market anymore.

APS-C market is still far bigger than any other ILC sensor size. 

 

[webrunner5]

6 minutes ago, IronFilm said:

The DX mirrorless is 99.99999% certain to use Z Mount

Nikon won't make the mistake of having different EOS M and EOS RF mounts. 
 

And it will be 99.99999% certain it will be a flop then if true. Other than the D500 I doubt Nikon has sold 100 DX cameras in the last year. I would bet Canon has outsold Nikon in APSC cameras 10 to 1 in the last couple of years. Other than the D500 Nikon has not made a DX camera worth buying since the D7200.

[IronFilm]

11 hours ago, webrunner5 said:

It really might not even be worth Nikons effort. The real hardcore enthusiasts APSC users are firmly in the Fuji, Pentax camp anyways.

Bet there are more professionals still using APS-C/DX Canon/Nikon than there is in the entire market of Fuji and Pentax users. 

1 minute ago, webrunner5 said:

And it will be 99.99999% certain it will be a flop then if true.

Nikon is trying to get everyone to move over to a new mount, Z Mount. 

They're not going to massively dilute those efforts by muddying the waters to introduce yet another new mount. No, DX mirrorless will use Z Mount. 

 

 

11 hours ago, webrunner5 said:

I really doubt Mom and Pop are running out in droves to buy cheap DSLRs, or Mirrorless cameras now. Those days are over with.

We've long past the peak days, yes. 
But there are still thousands upon thousands of thousands of people doing this and buying entry-mid level starter cameras / upgrades. 

 

[webrunner5]

Other than these new Z cameras, in the last few years Nikon has pretty much just sat on their ass and watched the world go by resting on their laurels. No breakthroughs to amount to spit. And that dumbass stuff with their 1" cameras, what a Jackass decision, no D750 replacement, on and on.. Personally I see the Z cameras as a total desperation attempt by them. Sink or swim. And I don't think it is some run away success for them by any means. This Panny S1, S1R, EOS-RS didn't help their cause at all.

[BTM_Pix]

I actually think there is some potential life there for Nikon to make an APS-C Z camera.

I read an(other) interesting interview with Sigma CEO Kazuto Yamaki yesterday that featured a couple of salient points.

The first is that they are making L mount versions of their APS-C lineup and the second is that their engineers are actively, erm, "analysing" the Z and R mounts.

Obviously they are going after Leica's T/TL/CL owners with the L mount versions as well as I would imagine a straight swap out L mount version of their current SD-Q to complement the upcoming full frame version of it.

The assumption would obviously be that they will be doing their greatest hits collection of ART lenses like the 18-35mm f1.8 but when you look at the form factor of the T/TL/CL but I think they'd do very well with making L mount versions of their DN range for mirrorless 

https://www.sigmaphoto.com/lenses/dn-for-mirrorless?sigma_mount=12990

I've got a few of these for my A6500 and they are way better than their price would have you suspect but crucially because they are so compact they would be a great match for the T/TL/CL.

Which brings us to the Z mount and if they repeated the same for that.

Whilst a straightforward APS-C reduction version of the Z6 (as they do with their DSLRs) might be a bit meh I think Nikon would do pretty well with an X-Pro2/X-E3 style camera taking advantage of the size reductions of mirrorless for bodies and lenses.

Basically, the Nikon 1 series as it should have been in the first place.

[IronFilm]

2 hours ago, BTM_Pix said:

The first is that they are making L mount versions of their APS-C lineup and the second is that their engineers are actively, erm, "analysing" the Z and R mounts.

I'd be mildly surprised if Panasonic makes an APS-C L mount camera. Could be too much of a size/price threat to their MFT cameras!

But makes sense for Sigma to do it (if Leica lets them), because Sigma has ready to go a great collection of APS-C lenses. 

2 hours ago, BTM_Pix said:

 

The assumption would obviously be that they will be doing their greatest hits collection of ART lenses like the 18-35mm f1.8 but when you look at the form factor of the T/TL/CL but I think they'd do very well with making L mount versions of their DN range for mirrorless 

https://www.sigmaphoto.com/lenses/dn-for-mirrorless?sigma_mount=12990

I've got a few of these for my A6500 and they are way better than their price would have you suspect but crucially because they are so compact they would be a great match for the T/TL/CL.

I do quite like my Sigma 60mm f2.8 for MFT that I picked up for a song. A nice portrait lens in a very small size/price. 

[BTM_Pix]

43 minutes ago, IronFilm said:

I'd be mildly surprised if Panasonic makes an APS-C L mount camera. Could be too much of a size/price threat to their MFT cameras!

But makes sense for Sigma to do it (if Leica lets them), because Sigma has ready to go a great collection of APS-C lenses. 

 

I doubt they will too for some time at least.

This is all about Sigma going after the T/TL/TL2/CL owners as that is a big pool that have thus far not exactly been well furnished with affordable lenses.

By which I mean, there haven't been any at all.

As these will be newly released L mount lens then my understanding is that it won't be locked out (as the Panasonic L mount lenses work now on Leica) so Leica have to play the game but it is, currently at least, the adapter that is the line in the sand for them as that enables non-alliance lenses such as Canon etc to be used.

[BasiliskFilm]

I had full frame 35mm on my Olympus Trip 35, 40 years ago. So you are not going to persuade me that APS-C is anything other than a poor compromise for stills photography. Progress in chip manufacture means that you can get full frame for £800 (original A7) now and that will only come down. Nikon could make a cut price Z5 by skimping on a lot of features (digital vs sensor stabilisation) lower res EVF and back screen, smaller buffer, simpler controls. 
They can cater for APSC by making an EVF version of the D5400. It is pretty small already and they can continue with their current lens lineup until demand fizzles out.

[Skip77]

15 hours ago, webrunner5 said:

Other than these new Z cameras, in the last few years Nikon has pretty much just sat on their ass and watched the world go by resting on their laurels. No breakthroughs to amount to spit. And that dumbass stuff with their 1" cameras, what a Jackass decision, no D750 replacement, on and on.. Personally I see the Z cameras as a total desperation attempt by them. Sink or swim. And I don't think it is some run away success for them by any means. This Panny S1, S1R, EOS-RS didn't help their cause at all.

The Z cameras do 10 bit external and 12 bit RAW is on it's way.  When another mirrorles camera besides the S1 can do 12 bit Raw comes along then I'll agree that the Z lineup is "desperation attempt by them." (Nikon).  

The EOS - R is a joke for video and the S1 is almost a clone of the Z6.  And don't come back with "if" the Z6 get Raw or no one wants Raw. ProRes Raw is no the data hog of other Raw codecs. 

What would have made the Z6 a breakthrough in your mind ? 4K60FPS pr two card slots? Because we all know the FS7 has two card slots. 

Nikon has the advantage of all the users that have Nikon glass coming over to the Z line up. Nikon owners are not switching to Canon or Panasonic.

[DBounce]

1 hour ago, Skip77 said:

The Z cameras do 10 bit external and 12 bit RAW is on it's way.  When another mirrorles camera besides the S1 can do 12 bit Raw comes along then I'll agree that the Z lineup is "desperation attempt by them." (Nikon).  

The EOS - R is a joke for video and the S1 is almost a clone of the Z6.  And don't come back with "if" the Z6 get Raw or no one wants Raw. ProRes Raw is no the data hog of other Raw codecs. 

What would have made the Z6 a breakthrough in your mind ? 4K60FPS pr two card slots? Because we all know the FS7 has two card slots. 

Nikon has the advantage of all the users that have Nikon glass coming over to the Z line up. Nikon owners are not switching to Canon or Panasonic.

I owned both... the Nikon is not a bad camera. But the AF is far behind the Canon, the preamps are inferior... enough so that it is quite noticeable and the image is over-sharpened. And while it's easy to sharpen a soft image, it's near impossible to soften a sharp image without turning it to mush. If the EOS R is a joke because it is cropped in 4k, then so are most cinema cameras. As they are almost all cropped when compared to full frame. You might try using one. I think you might find the joke is on you, because from my experience, there is no camera made today at this level, that cannot be used to create compelling work.