Nikon Z6 features 4K N-LOG, 10bit HDMI output and 120fps 1080p

[MdB]

1 minute ago, Django said:

You don't have to agree with me but I advise you calm down cuz I'm getting some real aggresive vibes from you when in reality i'm on your side as a C100/5D owner. we cool?

Sure! Not aggressive, I don't feel that having robust discussions is aggressive. Sorry if it comes off as such. I do get where you're coming from though. There are certainly many nice elements to these cameras and I know at some point I will probably (knowing me) end up owning one. 

I kind of don't get why every discussion on every forum about every release or product or feature has to devolve into a slinging match against Sony (in particular) and I REALLY dislike throw away 'universally known truths' such as how much better the ergonomics will definitely be just because it has a particular brand on it. Or how as soon as Nikon (or Canon) take mirrorless 'seriously' they can 'crush' Sony. I don't particularly love or even like Sony gear. But I really dislike BS. 

6 minutes ago, anonim said:

So, may I make simply conclusion that just so-call Nikon enhusiasts and so-call fanboys will buy these cameras - because they are stubbornly unwilling to properly evaluate your arguments and finally admit that, for the same money, Sony A7x is better choice?

Well that's an interesting question. First up, I doubt Canon users will buy the Nikon - The Nikon can't use their lenses, the Sony can. Also according to Sony, their market growth isn't coming from Canon / Nikon, it is coming from new buyers completely. They are actually building the market, rather than trying to poach users (although that still happens). I wonder if those new users would suddenly switch over and buy a Nikon instead... I tend to doubt it. Will people who are now heavily invested in the Sony system switch to Nikon? Probably not in great numbers. It probably already cost them a lot to switch and the Nikon offers little in the way of any substantial change, not in the same way that mirrorless offered those switchers over DSLR (right or wrong is not my point, but there was purpose there). Especially once the dust settles and people get a better and more balanced understanding of these and less marketing (or fanboy) hype. 

So I guess no, I don't think we are going to see mass switching nor mass new customers. Which means really only Nikon faithful will be really fronting up for these. That may change later. I don't think Canon's new mirrorless will be anything different either. But both will reduce the flow of people to mirrorless-only brands like Sony, Fuji and m43's, 

I do wonder what effect having nothing below the Z6 for mirrorless will affect uptake. 

[anonim]

1 hour ago, MdB said:

There are certainly many nice elements to these cameras and I know at some point I will probably (knowing me) end up owning one. 

Which are these "certainly many nice elements to these cameras"?

Finally, we are in the topic about Nikon Z6 and it seems to me sensible to hear something about its possible (comparatively?) nice elements, besides defense of Sony from its supposed enemies? (I wrote "supposed", because I still failed to find in this topic main - as you wrote - BS that made you so explosively angry or revolted: "Or how as soon as Nikon (or Canon) take mirrorless 'seriously' they can 'crush' Sony." Who said that here?)

Also, if you end up owning one, what then is crucial difference - reason wise - between you and those who end up owning it earlier than you - for example Django, who, with his own arguments, rethinks his instruments maybe in favor to Nikon?

 

[Mark Romero 2]

12 hours ago, Django said:

If pro photography is your main gig.. then this is definitely not going to top a D850 (or even D750) especially with adapted lens.

But for hybrid/video shooting, i think Z6 is going to be the bees knees!

@Mark Romero 2 1080p 120fps only in DX crop mode???   that's on Z7. Z6 won't crop.

Thanks, wasn't until this morning I realized that they were talking about the Z7 and not the Z6.

Let me just state one thing : I want the Z6 to be AMAZING!!!  Yeah, I currently shoot with Sony, but would have little problem switching (back) to Nikon if it is great for my needs. Heck, it would probably impress my clients more (they still look at my Sony cameras kind of funny).

I am concerned though that since MOST PEOPLE are going to be looking at the Z series as a stills camera first and foremost (and a video camera second), if the stills performance is lacking, Nikon might not experience the success they had anticipated, which MIGHT lead to them not putting as much R&D in to the Z series cameras.

Of course, the big caveat with all this is "pre-production model," so maybe when it is finalized Nikon will have a pair of KILLER hybrid cameras on their hands, and there will be much rejoicing.

So I am definitely rooting for Nikon, both for the Z6 and Z7, but also rooting that there is a new D760 in the works that will have oversampled 4K, great DR, two card slots, great 1080p, great AF, great high ISO... basically the same as D750 but with 4K, IBIS, and great AF in liveview.

[noone]

2 hours ago, Django said:

Thanks for the tip, but guess what? I've been using my AIS/AFD/AFS Nikkor lens collection on Sony & Fuji bodies for years now.. but those cheap dumb adapters go so far. I'm looking forward to a more elegant solution which the FTZ adapter should bring, can you blame me?

 

It remains to be seen but I suspect that for AFS lenses, then yes, the Zed's will be much better to use on than the Sony's but for AIS and AFD Nikon lenses, I think the Sony's with a cheap dumb adapter will be about as good and with a smart adapter like the Techart pro (disclaimer I have not used it), the latest Sony's would be a lot better.

The new Nikons look to have some really nice advantages over other cameras in some ways but are behind in others so it comes down to what is important to each individual.

For someone heavily invested in Nikon AFS or other recent AF lenses, then this is clearly the way to go and the same for Nikon fans who don't want to look elsewhere as well.

It will get its share of newcomers starting from scratch (as will Sony still and Canon when they start) and some Canon, Sony and other users will migrate to Nikon mirrorless just as some have been migrating to Nikon DSLRs and probably vice versa Just as it always has been.

A nice start but not for me (the non open mount meaning no adapting other mounts being the main killer).

I have been really spoilt by the Sony A7s low light auto focus (AFS anyway).

[TheRenaissanceMan]

Just recently jumped to Sony with the A7III (as B camera and stills companion), but I have to say while it's a big step up from its predecessors in usability, I still haven't fallen in love with the look. Maybe it's a matter of getting it dialed in, but I'm still finding my way.

I'm excited by what I see from the Nikon for video color, both with LOG and their FLAT profile. Interested to see some clips with external 10-bit, too, as I generally need at least that good for my work...and the A7 series has thus far failed to provide it. I just use manual lenses (Leica R) on adapters, so AF and powered adapters are a non-factor for me. Battery life is a question mark, but I'd probably hook up an external battery either way, as I do with my Sony. 

I guess my point is that evaluating these Nikons in terms of stills is interesting for hybrid shooters and to evaluate where they'll sit in the market; however, for video use, I feel like we've talked surprisingly little about the image or capabilities of these cameras beyond slamming them for perceived deficiencies compared to Sony.

Point is, more full frame mirrorless that values video is good for all of us. More choices, more competition, more possibilities. After the years of begging CaNikon to join the mirrorless market with something we can get excited about, the venom here is straight up baffling.

[Django]

1 hour ago, noone said:

It remains to be seen but I suspect that for AFS lenses, then yes, the Zed's will be much better to use on than the Sony's but for AIS and AFD Nikon lenses, I think the Sony's with a cheap dumb adapter will be about as good and with a smart adapter like the Techart pro (disclaimer I have not used it), the latest Sony's would be a lot better.

I disagree. On Nikon DSLR bodies such as D750/810/850 etc.. you can enter the manual AIS lens values and it will allow Aperture priority mode and even expose using auto-ISO. A rangefinder type indicator will also indicate you focus via arrows. I certainly hope/assume these features will carry over to the Z series bodies via the native smart adapter.. as Nikon has always had outstanding backwards legacy support..

@TheRenaissanceMan check out this video i posted yesterday for some 10-bit 4K clips: https://youtu.be/8X-lBje8NrE

[noone]

11 minutes ago, Django said:

I disagree. On Nikon DSLR bodies such as D750/810/850 etc.. you can enter the manual AIS lens values and it will allow Aperture priority mode and even expose using auto-ISO. A rangefinder type indicator will also indicate you focus via arrows. I certainly hope/assume these features will carry over to the Z series bodies via the smart adapter..

@TheRenaissanceMan check out this video i posted yesterday for some 10-bit 4K clips: https://youtu.be/8X-lBje8NrE

Even my A7s had no issue with exposure and AIS/AF (non D) lenses using auto ISO with a simple dumb adapter EG my last two, an  old MF 85 1.8 and 50 1.8 AF (non D) since given away recently with a D50 and it no trouble for focusing either and I actually much preferred using those lenses on the A7s than I would on a Nikon DSLR (I even preferred them bare on a Pentax DSLR because they could be stabilized and auto focused with a 1.7x AFA -do that at your own risk).       ON a smart adapter on the latest Sony's, both those lenses can auto focus but neither (including the 50 1.8 AF) can on the Zed's and I think I saw something about only being used wide open (though that seems wrong given the aperture rings).      Sony's IBIS is rated a little higher too though again, it remains to be seen in actual use.

[Django]

..except on Nikon bodies you can manually enter the AIS lens info from a list and access full metering, iTTL, exif data etc.. it's kind of a big deal imo especially for post. Anyways, AIS lenses are only a fraction of overall Nikkor legacy.. and not the only reason why the Z series would appeal to me personally. the color science, ergonomics, build/weather resistance, video AF implementation, 10-bit out etc all tick my boxes..

[anonim]

26 minutes ago, Django said:

 

@TheRenaissanceMan check out this video i posted yesterday for some 10-bit 4K clips: https://youtu.be/8X-lBje8NrE

I hope this is not Nikon's best

[noone]

You get everything but some EXIF data with the Sony's.      I don't get focal length on the first gen A7s but that isn't stabilized so not entered.

Again, I would think with simple dumb adapters and  older AF and manual focus lenses  it is going to be similar with some advantages to each depending on what you want and age of the lens but the smart adapter allows auto focus with the Sony's but not the Nikons.

Again, it all remains to be seen but for me, unless it was about later and current AF lenses, the Sony's seem a better fit for older Nikon lenses (you can still buy plenty of AIS lenses new from Nikon and auto focus them on a Sony- can not do that on the Zed's (yet).

Got current AF Nikon lenses, the Zed's look much better.

This is all great gear.

[Django]

@anonim well it's Z7 footage and only 2 shots are in 10-bit.. using standard profile.. at the poorly lit nikon event. that being said i find the color info difference with the internal 8-bit footage quite clear.

@noone hey i've been using my nikon glass on sony's & fujis with adapters for years.. it works. i'd just assume/hope it would work even better with the Z+FTZ.

[anonim]

13 minutes ago, Django said:

@anonim well it's Z7 footage and only 2 shots are in 10-bit.. using standard profile.. at the poorly lit nikon event. that being said i find the color info difference with the internal 8-bit footage quite clear.

Yes, very harsh light makes almost impossible to judge properly... at least for me. I see plenty of blown highlights, as also fully crushed blacks in trousers; of course, middle spectrum is crisp and contrasty, but it is expected... Judging for such my subjective and probably wrong perception, sometimes I'm wondering who and why allows such examples at the pick of promotional wave..  

[noone]

15 minutes ago, Django said:

 

@noone hey i've been using my nikon glass on sony's & fujis with adapters for years.. it works. i'd just assume/hope it would work even better with the Z+FTZ.

I actually hope it does work better for you but I am just not seeing how it could be better than on the Sony's.

I have been adapting and trying to adapt lenses across systems for decades  with things like a 300 2.8 on a Pentax Q, Nikon lenses bare- no adapter on Pentax for the IBIS, AF with the AFA and I forgot about trap focus (would not fire unless in focus- even with a manual focus Nikon lens), trying to kludge auto focus old MD/MC lenses on A mount on E mount, M43 lenses on E mount ETC and that for me was a major reason I got FF E mount in the first place (being able to use many more lenses with ease and often better than the original system they came from).

Not being able to adapt lenses so easily would have been a reason enough not to go to Nikon had they been first instead of Sony for me.    

It still just seems to me that with older Nikon lenses, they will be better on FF E mount than the Zed's (for now).

Nikon will still sell you plenty of AIS lenses new and for those, again, I would take a A7iii over a Zed any day.

For video auto focus users of Nikon recent Nikon AF lenses, the Z6 seems a no brainer.       Hope it is all you want it to be.

 

[TheRenaissanceMan]

2 hours ago, Django said:

I disagree. On Nikon DSLR bodies such as D750/810/850 etc.. you can enter the manual AIS lens values and it will allow Aperture priority mode and even expose using auto-ISO. A rangefinder type indicator will also indicate you focus via arrows. I certainly hope/assume these features will carry over to the Z series bodies via the native smart adapter.. as Nikon has always had outstanding backwards legacy support..

@TheRenaissanceMan check out this video i posted yesterday for some 10-bit 4K clips: https://youtu.be/8X-lBje8NrE

I would like to see better shot, better lit material. And preferably downloadable files. That said, color, resolution, and motion all feel quite natural in those clips. Nice skin tones as well. Gonna be fun to have another good "film stock" in this segment of the market.

The only reason I haven't bought a Nikon until now is that they didn't have a mirrorless mount that took my vintage glass. But now...slightly tempted to side-grade from my A7III. Hopefully I can get hands on with a Z6 soon.

[Mokara]

9 hours ago, MdB said:

I can't speak for Jon, but I find it somewhat frustrating as a user of most all systems (and care little of brand) just how much the status quo for ALL other brands fanboys will bash Sony and only Sony. Put it this way, if you are a Fuji, Oly, Panasonic, Canon, Ricoh, Nikon or Canon fanboy who do you bash? Sony. Most often with poorly understood or researched 'facts' that you read or heard somewhere on the internet. I find those kinds of arguments super annoying. Sony are far from perfect, but nobody is. Why they cop the majority of fanboy rage I have no idea, I guess in every segment they are the biggest threat to the status quo. 

 

The reason is that Sony are the biggest threat to whatever the fanboy's pet camera is. And it is that way for all of them, which is why it gets so much hate in spite of being largely a superior product compared to the rest. People form a relationship with their equipment and they need to rationalize their choice, which brings up negative emotions when the next guy on has a better option. A telltale sign that is going on when non-quantifiable qualities such as "color science", "cinematic" and "special sauce" start being bandied about as their rationale. As soon as you hear those sorts of things you know they are full of shit  

10 hours ago, webrunner5 said:

I don't think too many of the older lenses are going to be able to focus as fast as all these new lenses can from any of the top 4. Son'y new toplenses are almost instantaneous, and I would imagine these new Z lenses are also. That helps a lot for face and eye focus.

From Atomos website. Sure not necessary to have the Ninja V. but would make life easier with the new Z cameras..

"When the Z6 & Z7 are connected, the Ninja V can automatically detect and be set up to record the new Nikon N-Log gamma signal for recording with specific presets designed for the cameras. The image can also be monitored in REC. 709".

N-log just sounds inappropriate. I guess they were not thinking of the US market when they came up with their terminology and what it sounds like. Although, their insistence on calling it the "Zee" series when the rest of the English speaking world pronounces it as "Zed" might suggest otherwise.

[KnightsFan]

7 minutes ago, Mokara said:

A telltale sign that is going on when non-quantifiable qualities such as "color science", "cinematic" and "special sauce" start being bandied about as their rationale. As soon as you hear those sorts of things you know they are full of shit  

That's not entirely accurate. People have preferences on color science, and that is a valid reason to prefer one camera over another, even if there is no objective measure of which color/look is "better."

[jonpais]

5 hours ago, anonim said:

I hope this is not Nikon's best

I don’t think there’s any question it can shoot fine video. 

[Robert Collins]

39 minutes ago, KnightsFan said:

That's not entirely accurate. People have preferences on color science, and that is a valid reason to prefer one camera over another, even if there is no objective measure of which color/look is "better."

Well it sort of is. Because when you admit you are talking about 'color preferences' and that there is 'no objective measure' you are not dealing with 'science' at all! But I argued this once before and people simply declared they ]'preferred' their own definition of science over mine.

[jhnkng]

50 minutes ago, Mokara said:

A telltale sign that is going on when non-quantifiable qualities such as "color science", "cinematic" and "special sauce" start being bandied about as their rationale. As soon as you hear those sorts of things you know they are full of shit

Hahahaha, I guess I'm full of shit because if colour isn't at the top of the list in how you evaluate cameras then you're just a camera collector, not a creative. I've yet to meet a single working photographer, assistant, camera op, dp, or anyone with an interest in image capture who dismisses colour over any other image quality factor -- not sharpness, resolution, codec, frame rate -- anything. If the colour isn't there who cares about anything else!

10 minutes ago, Robert Collins said:

Well it sort of is. Because when you admit you are talking about 'color preferences' and that there is 'no objective measure' you are not dealing with 'science' at all! But I argued this once before and people simply declared they ]'preferred' their own definition of science over mine.

I agree with you about the term "colour science". I mean I'm sure there's a ton of engineering and science that goes into the creation of the sensors and lenses, but when it's used as a marketing term as well it just falls apart. Ultimately one person will like how one brand renders colours over another -- Canon and Nikon users have been at it since digital is a thing, and there's no way to "win" that argument, you just like what you like. 

[KnightsFan]

6 minutes ago, Robert Collins said:

Well it sort of is. Because when you admit you are talking about 'color preferences' and that there is 'no objective measure' you are not dealing with 'science' at all! But I argued this once before and people simply declared they ]'preferred' their own definition of science over mine.

Yes and no.

"Color science" refers to the hardware and software that the manufacturer uses to define the output of their camera. For example, Arri's color science may include a dual gain architecture in order to make the highlights behave a certain way, whereas Sigma's Foveon color science involves a very specific type of sensor.  The method of creating an image is certainly a science (specifically computer science) built out of objectively measurable variables. The subjective part is that one person may prefer the end result of a specific color science over another, and so a preference of one color science vs. another is not a science itself.

And my argument is that having a preference about the subjective part is a perfectly valid way to decide which camera to get, especially now that almost every modern camera has high technical quality.