Canon EOS R full frame mirrorless talk hots up

[Marcio Kabke Pinheiro]

3 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

Matt is right, the EF-S crop is a feature so it gets a mention in the specs, even if only in passing.

EF-S crop might only apply to the full frame 1080p mode, so it could still be 1.75x only in 4K and EF-S/Full-Frame selector would be greyed out in the menus.

Seems pretty obvious that it's a 5D IV in a mirrorless body. It's not suddenly going to be doing miracles on the tech side.

Once again Canon played it too safe.

But probably will sell like hotcakes. Canon have a very strong brand, and some real strenghts - good ergos, excellent color, reability. 

And just need to look how the M50 is selling  - is far from being a bad camera, but (in my opinion) is not the best option in the price range. More sad even is that it could be a VERY good camera with some little changes. But why to spend money in features if people buy the brand?

When I was in London last year was amazed by the number of EOS M6 on the streets - literally half of the mirroless models that I saw in hands of tourists. And all my friends that don't know photography and wants an opinion about buying a camera only asks about Canon models.

[Yurolov]

15 minutes ago, Márcio Kabke Pinheiro said:

But probably will sell like hotcakes. Canon have a very strong brand, and some real strenghts - good ergos, excellent color, reability. 

And just need to look how the M50 is selling  - is far from being a bad camera, but (in my opinion) is not the best option in the price range. More sad even is that it could be a VERY good camera with some little changes. But why to spend money in features if people buy the brand?

When I was in London last year was amazed by the number of EOS M6 on the streets - literally half of the mirroless models that I saw in hands of tourists. And all my friends that don't know photography and wants an opinion about buying a camera only asks about Canon models.

Really you just have to look how many comments there are on dpreview for this one rumour to realise how popular this thing will be. People don't seem to realise that though this camera may not be the best option for a very niche set of people, if it is priced well, it will be seen as the be all and end all for the majority of people (including vloggers) who are the largest subset of sales. 10bit and no crop is only important to a minority of people. The truth is that the flippy screen, autofocus, color, ergos and touch interface is a lot more important for your run of the mill consumer. Canon knows what's important to the majority of the people. I used to own a 200d (base model dslr) and a a6500. The 200d had a magnificent touch interface like a smartphone. The a6500 felt like it was from the 80s using the interface. Same goes with fuji. For a beginner to intermediate that's what's important, not 10 bit, no crop. I think canon's strategy is correct in that if you truly want good image quality out of a camera you should get a dedicated video camera. Despite everything sony gives you, the image is quite poor when compared to professional cinema cameras (heck, even the pocket cinema camera).  I know, I have seen it projected multiple times on the big screen. What people fail to mention is that yes you may have 4k but the motion cadence, color and highlight roll-off is horrendous. The motion cadence in particular you can't get a feel of until you see it projected. The c300 at 1080p to this date still looks better and you will be able to get it cheaper than a new a7siii. Even if you are doing docs or small productions, the c300 is still better owing to ergonomics. If you need something small, this canon mirrorless is good enough given the ease of use it will afford you. I think canon are still the innovators where it matters.      

[OliKMIA]

5 hours ago, Mokara said:

ML do more by making the camera perform beyond it's safe specs. You can do that with literally ALL cameras, but the manufacturers do not do it for very sound reasons that have nothing to do with crippling. A manufacturer has to consider liability issues for a start, particularly when delivering a product that cannot always meet it's spec. The operating mode they set up has to work ALL of the time and not fail/glitch out, which is something that can easily happen when the hardware is pushed beyond it's stable limits. They also have to consider the effect of returns as a result of unreliability or premature failure and what that costs them. One return will cost you the profit on some larger number of sales. Returns have a negative effect on the bottom line, and any manufacturer that produces a product where that happens excessively is probably not going to be in business very long even if they sell lots of product.

I don't have the impression that zebra, peaking or the dozen other little features that Canon never want to give us are straining my camera.

[jonpais]

Fuji said the X-T2 couldn't do zebras because of the processor I believe.

[Dunjoye]

2 hours ago, Yurolov said:

Really you just have to look how many comments there are on dpreview for this one rumour to realise how popular this thing will be. People don't seem to realise that though this camera may not be the best option for a very niche set of people, if it is priced well, it will be seen as the be all and end all for the majority of people (including vloggers) who are the largest subset of sales. 10bit and no crop is only important to a minority of people. The truth is that the flippy screen, autofocus, color, ergos and touch interface is a lot more important for your run of the mill consumer. Canon knows what's important to the majority of the people. I used to own a 200d (base model dslr) and a a6500. The 200d had a magnificent touch interface like a smartphone. The a6500 felt like it was from the 80s using the interface. Same goes with fuji. For a beginner to intermediate that's what's important, not 10 bit, no crop. I think canon's strategy is correct in that if you truly want good image quality out of a camera you should get a dedicated video camera. Despite everything sony gives you, the image is quite poor when compared to professional cinema cameras (heck, even the pocket cinema camera).  I know, I have seen it projected multiple times on the big screen. What people fail to mention is that yes you may have 4k but the motion cadence, color and highlight roll-off is horrendous. The motion cadence in particular you can't get a feel of until you see it projected. The c300 at 1080p to this date still looks better and you will be able to get it cheaper than a new a7siii. Even if you are doing docs or small productions, the c300 is still better owing to ergonomics. If you need something small, this canon mirrorless is good enough given the ease of use it will afford you. I think canon are still the innovators where it matters.      

Spot on!

[MdB]

7 hours ago, Snowbro said:

I don't know how true this is, but even for using it as a stills only camera. It can only shoot 5fps with a 16 pic max buffer in ai servo. Or 3fps with dpaf (live view). Owned. 

People are getting bogged down with the Dual Pixel RAW function (like that in the 5D IV) with is not the same as Dual Pixel AF. Saying 3fps with dpaf (live view) makes zero sense, what other kind of view do you think it has? Dual pixel RAW enables some extra after the fact editing by using the additional information, however it is expensive computationally and memory wise, which is why the fps drops when in use. Using DPAF gives 5fps apparently. Lock AF is 8fps. Both still behind the competition, but not 3fps. 

Owned. 

4 hours ago, Yurolov said:

Really you just have to look how many comments there are on dpreview for this one rumour to realise how popular this thing will be. People don't seem to realise that though this camera may not be the best option for a very niche set of people, if it is priced well, it will be seen as the be all and end all for the majority of people (including vloggers) who are the largest subset of sales. 10bit and no crop is only important to a minority of people. The truth is that the flippy screen, autofocus, color, ergos and touch interface is a lot more important for your run of the mill consumer. Canon knows what's important to the majority of the people. I used to own a 200d (base model dslr) and a a6500. The 200d had a magnificent touch interface like a smartphone. The a6500 felt like it was from the 80s using the interface. Same goes with fuji. For a beginner to intermediate that's what's important, not 10 bit, no crop. I think canon's strategy is correct in that if you truly want good image quality out of a camera you should get a dedicated video camera. Despite everything sony gives you, the image is quite poor when compared to professional cinema cameras (heck, even the pocket cinema camera).  I know, I have seen it projected multiple times on the big screen. What people fail to mention is that yes you may have 4k but the motion cadence, color and highlight roll-off is horrendous. The motion cadence in particular you can't get a feel of until you see it projected. The c300 at 1080p to this date still looks better and you will be able to get it cheaper than a new a7siii. Even if you are doing docs or small productions, the c300 is still better owing to ergonomics. If you need something small, this canon mirrorless is good enough given the ease of use it will afford you. I think canon are still the innovators where it matters.      

Ugh. I find this argument repulsive as it really does just let big companies completely off the hook and way too easily. Fine you think Canon's user interface and motion cadence and colour science and ergonomics (and whatever other fanboy buzzword of intangible and unprovable nature you can think of), I do too. That ineffable something that makes something feel better to you... go for it! BUT - That should not be Canon's great Unique Selling Point, rather than their ONLY selling point. That should be what makes them stand head and shoulders above Sony or Panasonic or whoever. But instead we get weak sauce products that are behind the competition and make excuses with ineffable fanboy nonsense. Just because I have a personal preference for a particular design etc doesn't mean I should constantly miss out on commonplace features just so they can sell me the next model down the track that finally gives us that. I shouldn't spend all my time disregarding that feature as rubbish or unnecessary just because my preferred brand doesn't have it. 

We need to make brands accountable to us as consumers rather than make excuses for them in order to feel like we belong to the club. 

[Snowbro]

16 minutes ago, MdB said:

People are getting bogged down with the Dual Pixel RAW function (like that in the 5D IV) with is not the same as Dual Pixel AF. Saying 3fps with dpaf (live view) makes zero sense, what other kind of view do you think it has? Dual pixel RAW enables some extra after the fact editing by using the additional information, however it is expensive computationally and memory wise, which is why the fps drops when in use. Using DPAF gives 5fps apparently. Lock AF is 8fps. Both still behind the competition, but not 3fps. 

Owned. 

5 fps or slower depending on conditions, battery etc. I will keep the 16 fps in my 1DX ii. 

[Mattias Burling]

The EOS-R does 8fps. I don't see how that's bad in a mid range and according to rumor, affordable camera.

Its not meant for sports. Canon if anyone knows that for sports you use a DSLR. So why even bother.

[Snowbro]

Just now, Mattias Burling said:

The EOS-R does 8fps. I don't see how that's bad in a mid range and according to rumor, affordable camera.

Its not meant for sports. Canon if anyone knows that for sports you use a DSLR. So why even bother.

It is 5 fps or lower in AI servo. The Sony A7iii which should be a competitor price wise, does 8+ fps with AF up to 89 raw frames. If it is like the 5D IV, which all signs point, it will slow down at 28 raw frames. My point is, it just really seems like Canon is fine with putting out stripped cameras, hold important specs for the flagship. They expect idiots to buy the lackluster offerings and they do. If you only take photos of flowers, then this camera will be perfect, but for many of us it is a huge disappointment. 2 year old camera stuffed into mirrorless body and a big slap in the face to EF owners, when you look at what other companies are doing. 

[jonpais]

motion cadence. ?

 

[Yurolov]

2 hours ago, MdB said:

Ugh. I find this argument repulsive as it really does just let big companies completely off the hook and way too easily. Fine you think Canon's user interface and motion cadence and colour science and ergonomics (and whatever other fanboy buzzword of intangible and unprovable nature you can think of), I do too. That ineffable something that makes something feel better to you... go for it! BUT - That should not be Canon's great Unique Selling Point, rather than their ONLY selling point. That should be what makes them stand head and shoulders above Sony or Panasonic or whoever. But instead we get weak sauce products that are behind the competition and make excuses with ineffable fanboy nonsense. Just because I have a personal preference for a particular design etc doesn't mean I should constantly miss out on commonplace features just so they can sell me the next model down the track that finally gives us that. I shouldn't spend all my time disregarding that feature as rubbish or unnecessary just because my preferred brand doesn't have it. 

We need to make brands accountable to us as consumers rather than make excuses for them in order to feel like we belong to the club. 

I agree with that. All I'm saying is that canon is not so bad as others seem to be claiming. In terms of what it is capable of being used for, and what it should be used for, I still think it is the best product on the market. 

1 hour ago, jonpais said:

motion cadence. ?

 

That's my perception, and those around me, who had the luxury of seeing various cameras projected onto the big screen, including mirroless cameras (5d mark iv and as7ii). You can disagree with me, I don't mind, nor will all those people purchasing this camera.  

[Jimmy]

3 hours ago, MdB said:

We need to make brands accountable to us as consumers rather than make excuses for them in order to feel like we belong to the club. 

If only there was a simple way to show the brand our feelings towards a product!

[Snowbro]

7 minutes ago, Jimmy said:

If only there was a simple way to show the brand our feelings towards a product!

Wave at them, with one finger

[Mattias Burling]

3 hours ago, Snowbro said:

It is 5 fps or lower in AI servo. The Sony A7iii which should be a competitor price wise, does 8+ fps with AF up to 89 raw frames. If it is like the 5D IV, which all signs point, it will slow down at 28 raw frames. My point is, it just really seems like Canon is fine with putting out stripped cameras, hold important specs for the flagship. They expect idiots to buy the lackluster offerings and they do. If you only take photos of flowers, then this camera will be perfect, but for many of us it is a huge disappointment. 2 year old camera stuffed into mirrorless body and a big slap in the face to EF owners, when you look at what other companies are doing. 

Yeah sure. All those pro's out there with Canon DSLRs are idiots. Thats the reason. And of course they all shoot flowers. No one is working with sports, portrait, news or anything. I'm with you, your personal needs and preferences should be applied to all. 

Btw, its lunch time here soon, what are you having, so I can buy the same? Wouldn't want to be the idiot that buys the wrong food..

[Mokara]

8 hours ago, Yurolov said:

Really you just have to look how many comments there are on dpreview for this one rumour to realise how popular this thing will be. People don't seem to realise that though this camera may not be the best option for a very niche set of people, if it is priced well, it will be seen as the be all and end all for the majority of people (including vloggers) who are the largest subset of sales. 10bit and no crop is only important to a minority of people. The truth is that the flippy screen, autofocus, color, ergos and touch interface is a lot more important for your run of the mill consumer. Canon knows what's important to the majority of the people. I used to own a 200d (base model dslr) and a a6500. The 200d had a magnificent touch interface like a smartphone. The a6500 felt like it was from the 80s using the interface. Same goes with fuji. For a beginner to intermediate that's what's important, not 10 bit, no crop. I think canon's strategy is correct in that if you truly want good image quality out of a camera you should get a dedicated video camera. Despite everything sony gives you, the image is quite poor when compared to professional cinema cameras (heck, even the pocket cinema camera).  I know, I have seen it projected multiple times on the big screen. What people fail to mention is that yes you may have 4k but the motion cadence, color and highlight roll-off is horrendous. The motion cadence in particular you can't get a feel of until you see it projected. The c300 at 1080p to this date still looks better and you will be able to get it cheaper than a new a7siii. Even if you are doing docs or small productions, the c300 is still better owing to ergonomics. If you need something small, this canon mirrorless is good enough given the ease of use it will afford you. I think canon are still the innovators where it matters.      

All this talk about menus is nonsense. Every Canon I have owned has similar list menus to every other camera I have, including Sony, Samsung, Nikon and Toshibas. Other manufacturers arrange their menus differently, but they are all similarly difficult to navigate. Using a touch screen or a cursor wheel involves equal amounts of effort. Just because it is different does not mean one is better than the other in terms of functionality. I have to meet anyone who based their buying decision on the menu structure of a camera. Of all things, who the hell would find that important?

The most important characteristic for people who buy M50 level cameras is the brand name on the face plate, provided that the camera itself looks good and not too weird. That is what they base their buying decision on for the most part. But when the price point goes up, cameras are being marketed to more sophisticated buyers and they will be more inclined to pay attention to the actual capabilities of the camera.

3 hours ago, Mattias Burling said:

The EOS-R does 8fps. I don't see how that's bad in a mid range and according to rumor, affordable camera.

Its not meant for sports. Canon if anyone knows that for sports you use a DSLR. So why even bother.

Actually, if you are shooting RAW and use PDAF, it slows down to 2.2 fps. Not only that, but things like flicker reduction and "Digital Lens Optimizer" (whatever the hell that is, probably lens correction) are disabled according to the specs.

When I shoot stills I always record RAW, even if JPEG is being shot as well. I use the JPEG files for preliminary assessment of the image on a tablet, then use the RAW file to produce the actual image. 2.2 fps sounds freaking slow to me, and is a huge red flag that there are going to be a lot of compromises with anything that is computationally demanding with this camera. And that is going to be most evident when it comes to shooting high data rate video. 

[UncleBobsPhotography]

25 minutes ago, Mokara said:

All this talk about menus is nonsense. Every Canon I have owned has similar list menus to every other camera I have, including Sony, Samsung, Nikon and Toshibas. Other manufacturers arrange their menus differently, but they are all similarly difficult to navigate. Using a touch screen or a cursor wheel involves equal amounts of effort. Just because it is different does not mean one is better than the other in terms of functionality. I have to meet anyone who based their buying decision on the menu structure of a camera. Of all things, who the hell would find that important?

The list may be similar, but Sony are able to make simple lists complex. Here are some examples:

1) How do I save a memory setting on my RX1RII? I set all the settings as I'm supposed to, find the memory slot in one of the 50 pages in the menu and save it. How can I check if it's correct? I toggle back and forth on the memory dial to get the basic settings, however, nothing has changed. In fact nothing will change until you turn your camera off and on again. Not intuitive at all.

2) I use one of the playmemory apps and tries to change the aperture. I get the message "Operation not allowed in current mode". No explanation why. I try to manual focus, I get the message "Operation not allowed in current mode", no explanation. I have now figured out that if an app is allowed control over a function, you are not allowed to manually change it. This means you are not allowed to use manual focus to set up the picture when you are using a focus stacking app, which is idiotic. And you are probably not allowed to change the aperture on your camera while you are in a timelapse app if the timelapsee app has been given control over the aperture.

3) I turn on my camera and click record to capture the moment. Nothing happens. I had forgot to acknowledge the fact that my camera is in PAL mode, which has to be done each and every time I turn on my camera.

I don't see any other manufacturer messing up their menus like this. The RX1RII is a marvel of engineering, but operating it can feel like hitting your head against a wall if you're trying to do something else than the basic ISO, aperture, SS settings.

[MattH]

2 hours ago, UncleBobsPhotography said:

The list may be similar, but Sony are able to make simple lists complex. Here are some examples:

3) I turn on my camera and click record to capture the moment. Nothing happens. I had forgot to acknowledge the fact that my camera is in PAL mode, which has to be done each and every time I turn on my camera.

 

Wow, let me see if I've got that right.  Every time you turn the camera  (RX1Rii) on  It reminds you that you are in PAL mode and you have to click yes to acknowledge that before it will allow you to record a video?   And there is no menu setting to disable that reminder?    I can understand that as a useful feature if you are a person who only uses PAL mode at certain times, but if you cant choose to turn it off that would be enraging.

[jonpais]

11 minutes ago, MattH said:

Wow, let me see if I've got that right.  Every time you turn the camera  (RX1Rii) on  It reminds you that you are in PAL mode and you have to click yes to acknowledge that before it will allow you to record a video?   And there is no menu setting to disable that reminder?    I can understand that as a useful feature if you are a person who only uses PAL mode at certain times, but if you cant choose to turn it off that would be enraging.

I’ve run into that once or twice myself.

[MdB]

2 hours ago, Mokara said:

Actually, if you are shooting RAW and use PDAF, it slows down to 2.2 fps. Not only that, but things like flicker reduction and "Digital Lens Optimizer" (whatever the hell that is, probably lens correction) are disabled according to the specs.

Ugh, not this again. That is with dual pixel RAW. Not dual pixel AF, while shooting RAW. Dual pixel RAW is capturing data at both image sites and enabling things like micro AF adjustment after the fact. 

Servo AF (which is dual pixel AF continuous) while shooting (RAW or JPEG or RAW+JPEG) is 5fps. 

2 hours ago, UncleBobsPhotography said:

The list may be similar, but Sony are able to make simple lists complex. Here are some examples:

I could make just as similar lists about Canon. 

6 hours ago, Snowbro said:

5 fps or slower depending on conditions, battery etc. I will keep the 16 fps in my 1DX ii. 

Yes because they are meant to be competing products derp derp

[UncleBobsPhotography]

1 hour ago, MattH said:

Wow, let me see if I've got that right.  Every time you turn the camera  (RX1Rii) on  It reminds you that you are in PAL mode and you have to click yes to acknowledge that before it will allow you to record a video?   And there is no menu setting to disable that reminder?    I can understand that as a useful feature if you are a person who only uses PAL mode at certain times, but if you cant choose to turn it off that would be enraging.

I am not quite sure when the message comes and when it doesn't, but I've missed several moments because of it. I see that there is a hack online to remove it, but that shouldn't be necessary.

1 hour ago, MdB said:

I could make just as similar lists about Canon. 

I'm sure there are issues with every camera, but I've got the 6D, GH5 and RX1RII and the user interface and responsiveness of the two first is way ahead of the RX1RII, but then there is the sweet sweet image quality that makes up for it.