Canon EOS R full frame mirrorless talk hots up

[Yurolov]

2 hours ago, Mattias Burling said:

The drama surrounding this camera is almost surreal

I sent in my trade in camera yesterday. No idea where in line I am for the EOS-R but probably way back. Maybe all the internet drama have shortened it a bit..

Not judging by people's reports from photokina. Seems like this camera was quite popular. The sensor might be old but its still a 30 megapixel full frame sensor with some crazy nice colours and cheap lenses. 

[Mattias Burling]

@Yurolov Yeah it probably will be very popular. Canon has quite the strong hold here and I suspect it has it in other places as well.

[mercer]

I thought Canon has stated that it is not the same sensor that’s in the 5D4 and is a new sensor?

[ade towell]

Has there been much feedback on how the AF is with ef lenses and the adaptor for video and photography? As quick as native mount lenses or a bit clunky? Not interested in getting a whole new set of lenses

[kye]

If you're in the stills game then Canon are great and are pushing the price/performance in the upper echelons of pro-level cameras. Unfortunately for us we are playing video and the upper echelons are $100k+

[jonpais]

5 fps with C-AF is hardly state-of-the-art. By comparison, the Nikon Z6 offers 12 fps. 

Incidentally, what difference does it make if it's a new sensor but can only do 1.7X crop with the super duper new processor?

If I was fortunate enough to own a 1DX MkII, I wouldn't be trading it in.

[Mattias Burling]

Using a Canon for pro work isn't always about specs like that. If I shot nothing but pro sports all day long there is literally zero chance that I would ever get any of the mirrorless options. Nikon can put 30fps in it, still won't matter. Sports is still a DSLR game.

For my professional hybrid shooting (portraits, product, documentary, sports, video) the 6Dmkii is currently the "best" option for me. Thats the camera it is going to replace. And then 5fps is business as usual for me and nothing that bothers me. The positives still outweighs it not have the latest and greatest numbers printed on the box.

[jonpais]

maybe so, but double the burst rate isn't nothing, is it? no crop isn't nothing. IBIS isn't nothing. dual card slots isn't nothing. a full ecosystem of native and third party lenses from cheap Chinese optics to Voigtlander, not to mention all the E mount cinema lenses isn't nothing. so no, Canon isn't quite pushing the boundaries of the possible with their first FF mirrorless. 

[Mattias Burling]

Agreed, Canon does not push limits. And they don't have the ambition to do so either. They have said many times that being first isn't a priority (even though they where first with 4K and 4K 60p).
And thats why pros like them so much. They can walk into a store and pick up a new model and go straight to work the very same day. It won't have as many features as the Sony next to it, but it will be a solid performer. 
Same, lenses, same batteries, etc is also a plus.

In forums like these Canons "new features" are often swiped under the rug because they aren't big words like 10-bit or no crop 4K. 
Sometimes Ive even seen really nice features, that affect the shooter every single day, flat out laughed at. But the pros that really benefit from the features aren't laughing at all.
As an example, in the EOS-R I will eledgedly be able to press the video record button in stills mode and it will record with my predetermined video settings.
That doesn't sound as sexy as 10-bit FF. But to me, that switch between my video and photo settings maybe 20 times every 30 min on a shoot.. its a big deal. 

(And there is also the huge selection of affordable native and third party glass.)

 

[jonpais]

fair enough.

[wolf33d]

Not fair enough. This is ridiculous. As ridiculous as Peter Mckinon videos on Youtube. The guy says he is leaving his 1DX2 and switching to the EOS R, and that the limitations (no FH 120p, wait who shoots 720p?, big 4K crop,...) will actually force him to push his creativity. 
Most ridiculous thing I have ever heard. It goes as far as this to defend Canon. 

The fact is, pro or not pro, reliability or not, usability or not, those specs are unacceptable. Using a 2y old sensor is not acceptable especially when it was far behind the competition 2y ago. 
1.7x crop is not acceptable, no one does that. In all interviews Canon answer they could not do no crop. Well every manufacturer on the planet can except them. 3y old FF camera can do 120p in FHD but Canon say they could not with the EOS R. This is a joke, people should buy 0 EOS R to shake this freaking company and make them think about releasing something decent. 

Ok I understand, they have other advantages like ergonomics and so on. This does not and cannot justify the above. They do not need 4K120P RAW sure, just DECENT spec. Even if they have the lowest spec of the competition. But staying 5 years behind is so ridiculous. 

Stop defending what can't be. 

 

[jonpais]

37 minutes ago, wolf33d said:

Not fair enough. This is ridiculous. As ridiculous as Peter Mckinon videos on Youtube. The guy says he is leaving his 1DX2 and switching to the EOS R, and that the limitations (no FH 120p, wait who shoots 720p?, big 4K crop,...) will actually force him to push his creativity. 
Most ridiculous thing I have ever heard. It goes as far as this to defend Canon. 

The fact is, pro or not pro, reliability or not, usability or not, those specs are unacceptable. Using a 2y old sensor is not acceptable especially when it was far behind the competition 2y ago. 
1.7x crop is not acceptable, no one does that. In all interviews Canon answer they could not do no crop. Well every manufacturer on the planet can except them. 3y old FF camera can do 120p in FHD but Canon say they could not with the EOS R. This is a joke, people should buy 0 EOS R to shake this freaking company and make them think about releasing something decent. 

Ok I understand, they have other advantages like ergonomics and so on. This does not and cannot justify the above. They do not need 4K120P RAW sure, just DECENT spec. Even if they have the lowest spec of the competition. But staying 5 years behind is so ridiculous. 

Stop defending what can't be. 

 

I give in already. If a camera's good enough for some people, it's no use trying to convince them otherwise. I went through the same thing with the X-H1, and it just earned lots of dislikes. It's not worth arguing over.

[wolf33d]

2 minutes ago, jonpais said:

I give in already. If a camera's good enough for some people, it's no use trying to convince them otherwise. I went through the same thing with the X-H1, and it just earned lots of dislikes. It's not worth arguing over.

True. But if all the people unhappy with what canon offers would yell online like we do, Canon would be forcing to move at some point.

Also, thousands of people not member in Eoshd forum read those pages, lots of them beginners and not necessarily knowing well the cameras and seeking advice. 

[Django]

1 hour ago, wolf33d said:

Not fair enough. This is ridiculous. As ridiculous as Peter Mckinon videos on Youtube. The guy says he is leaving his 1DX2 and switching to the EOS R, and that the limitations (no FH 120p, wait who shoots 720p?, big 4K crop,...) will actually force him to push his creativity. 
Most ridiculous thing I have ever heard. It goes as far as this to defend Canon. 

 

It's far from ridiculous. Limitations can spark creativity, it's a well known concept. Look it up.

In his follow-up video, he further explains how he will be losing 120p & a lighter crop on 1DX2 but also gaining a lot for video (EVF, Flip screen, C-Log, peaking, MF guide, 10-bit 422 out, lighter codec etc) with a much lighter body, ergonomics, superb new RF lenses with extra ring control & vari- ND filters for EF glass collection. 

People seem to only focus on the negatives, but omit the positives this camera system is bringing... to Canon shooters.

Quote

The fact is, pro or not pro, reliability or not, usability or not, those specs are unacceptable. Using a 2y old sensor is not acceptable especially when it was far behind the competition 2y ago. 
1.7x crop is not acceptable, no one does that. In all interviews Canon answer they could not do no crop. Well every manufacturer on the planet can except them. 3y old FF camera can do 120p in FHD but Canon say they could not with the EOS R. This is a joke, people should buy 0 EOS R to shake this freaking company and make them think about releasing something decent. 

Ok I understand, they have other advantages like ergonomics and so on. This does not and cannot justify the above. They do not need 4K120P RAW sure, just DECENT spec. Even if they have the lowest spec of the competition. But staying 5 years behind is so ridiculous. 

Stop defending what can't be. 

 

I think you forget these hybrid cameras are first & foremost still photography cameras with video capabilities. 4K crop & HD 120p aren't necessarily deal breakers to many.

I'll grant you Canon is behind & slow in some aspects (IBIS, sensor tech) but in other places such as Dual Pixel AF, lenses, ND adapter.. they are innovative & class leading.

So it's not a question of defending, but weighing the pros & cons that fit your own needs. No camera is perfect. In the end you buy into a system, not just a body.

[wolf33d]

2 hours ago, Django said:

I'll grant you Canon is behind & slow in some aspects (IBIS, sensor tech) but in other places such as Dual Pixel AF, lenses, ND adapter.. they are innovative & class leading.

So it's not a question of defending, but weighing the pros & cons that fit your own needs. No camera is perfect. In the end you buy into a system, not just a body.

Okay so if Canon is class leading in ND adapters, I think I should be giving up too. 

Yes there are 2-3 areas where Canon shines such as DPAF. If All other cameras would be GH5 AF level that would be a big point. Fact is Sony, Fuji and Nikon now have fantastic video AF. They catch up quickly in the 2-3 points where Canon shines. 
For where Canon is behind, they are 5 years behind and they do not catch up. 
That's the difference and that's why it's not acceptable. It's acceptable to not be perfect in all aspects as you say no camera is perfect. Selling the R for $2200 with those extreme limitations is not acceptable for me. Even for photography only, the 5DIV/ EOS R sensor catches up with 5y old Sony sensor. 

[Mattias Burling]

5 hours ago, wolf33d said:

reliability or not, usability or not, 

..... speechless.....

And no-one here is defending anything. My tip, stop taking others needs personal.

4 hours ago, Django said:

So it's not a question of defending, but weighing the pros & cons that fit your own needs. No camera is perfect. In the end you buy into a system, not just a body.

This!

1 hour ago, wolf33d said:

For where Canon is behind, they are 5 years behind and they do not catch up. 

For you. You are not all.

[mercer]

And everybody acts like Canon isn’t progressing their AF? Just because Sony and whoever is getting better, well so are Canon. When they introduce QPAF, they’ll be 2-3 generations ahead of the competition.

Also 5 years ago, Canon was the only manufacturer that had a 4K camera. It was 3 years ago that Sony had FF 4K and they had overheating issues. Even today Fuji crops their S35 cameras and have time limits. Canon doesn’t have time limits, their cameras don’t overheat. They’d rather have a crop than a 10 minute time limit. They’d rather have a crop than have an overheating warning pop up. Canon cameras work and that’s why they are workhorses.

[Django]

Dual Pixel AF still wrecks all the competition. Now with eye-tracking & -6EV AF.. it keeps getting better.

But the whole race to specs battle is a little disconcerting. A camera doesn't become obsolete because so & so new feature isn't present, or it hasn't got the latest greatest sensor. All the cameras out today are capable of amazing results in the right hands.

I still shoot on occasion with a 2005 5D Mark 1 & regularly with the 2012 C100 mark 1. I don't care if the specs are "dated" I love their output. My friends/clients do to. Color science, ergonomics, lenses.. those are the type of things that seduce me primarily. And Canon kills it in those areas. Pretty sure a 2yo 5D4 30MP sensor will do more than ok. 4K crop? yeah that's a bummer. fortunately i still mostly shoot/deliver in 1080p. 

Everybodies needs/priorities is different. I understand the EOS R limitations are total deal breakers to others. I'd love it myself if the camera had IBIS, FF 4K & HFR. 

But you can't have it all & the body/glass combo sounds very attractive to me, and I'm already invested in pricey L lenses so it's kind of a no brainer. 

 

 

 

 

[Andrew Reid]

Everyone is justified in their own needs.

Personally I need proper video specs. Canon keep fluffing it. The 1D C was amazing. Such unfulfilled potential.

On the stills side, I still use my 1D C and 1D X Mark II. I enjoy Magic Lantern as well.

On the reliability and pro side, yes Canon are leading the field.

Colours are fantastic.

All this is why I am passionate about Canon, passionate enough to rip into them on the blog when they treat video users with such disregard. It's almost like it's personal! Do they hate us?!

I know so many people who have switched to Sony, so it only hurts Canon's bottom-line at the end of the day.

I am not interested in their bottom line as a customer or their business strategy. If they want to be clever about protecting Cinema EOS from stills camera side of the business then that is up to them. I, as a customer, am only interested in the cameras and not their executive bonuses or share price. Through old sensor tech and 1.8x crop, they lost a sale with the EOS R from me. Also, having now had my hand on the body, I am not very impressed with the in-hand feel at all. Feels CHEAP.

1 hour ago, Django said:

Dual Pixel AF still wrecks all the competition. Now with eye-tracking & -6EV AF.. it keeps getting better.

Sure and AF is vital. Miss an important shot on a pro shoot, you're fucked. Why risk it. Select solid, reliable Canon.

But art is about more than just shot getting, for me. I have that luxury, to piss around a bit more and experiment more. Not everyone does that on every paid gig, and I totally understand that!! So for them, rock solid reliable AF is vital, and there, Panasonic is the one fluffing it.

1 hour ago, Django said:

But the whole race to specs battle is a little disconcerting. A camera doesn't become obsolete because so & so new feature isn't present, or it hasn't got the latest greatest sensor. All the cameras out today are capable of amazing results in the right hands.

True, but that doesn't disqualify people from being excited about new releases and innovation, does it? New technology is a passion in itself. Canon is boring in that regard.

1 hour ago, Django said:

I still shoot on occasion with a 2005 5D Mark 1 & regularly with the 2012 C100 mark 1. I don't care if the specs are "dated" I love their output. My friends/clients do to. Color science, ergonomics, lenses.. those are the type of things that seduce me primarily. And Canon kills it in those areas.

Absolutely true. I am using a 1976 Canon FD lens on a Fujifilm medium format camera. The look is amazing. Canon don't have the body, Fujifilm do. But their lenses are fantastic and have been for 50+ years.

The FD series set the benchmark and cut out the template for the modern EF range. 24 f1.4, 50 1.2, 85 1.2 - all total classics.

1 hour ago, Django said:

Pretty sure a 2yo 5D4 30MP sensor will do more than ok. 4K crop? yeah that's a bummer. fortunately i still mostly shoot/deliver in 1080p.

If I wrote EOSHD from the perspective of someone who only shoots 1080p, it would be of zero use to anyone.

But I can perfectly understand why some paid work is still shot in such an old video standard.

 

[Django]

Well it's nice to hear you say some positive things about Canon Andrew ?

I do feel like Canon catches a lot of flack. Justifiably so in many aspects, but they do nail certain things.

A little concerned about the "cheap" feel. I was under the impression it was "1DX build quality". How would you consider so compared to A73/XT3/Z etc?

Also FWIW i do shoot 2K/4K. Do got the luxury of renting equipment when budget allows. But hear this, just yesterday i was comparing footage shot in 4K on my XT2 to 1080p footage shot on my C100 externally to ProRes 4:2:2 (upscaled) on my new 4K OLED TV.. and the C100 footage looked vasty superior to my eyes. Kind of defies logic i know, and i'll have to do more serious tests but codecs shouldn't be under-estimated me thinks..