4 way battle - rating the chances of Panasonic vs Canon vs Nikon vs Sony full frame mirrorless systems

[Andrew Reid]

Now some of the dust has settled in the 2018 full frame mirrorless game, we can start to get a clearer picture about what's on offer.

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[Robert Collins]

The problem I have with Panasonic going full frame is that I think Panasonic's very success in video is down to the competitive advantage they enjoy by using a 'smaller sensor'. The M43 sensor size brings a lot of advantages to video - better ibis, faster frame rates, more bit depth, higher bit rates and lower cost - than can be achieved with a bigger sensor. And of course they enjoy the widest and most mature, native lens lineup of any mirrorless system.

I just dont see what they bring to the table in FF mirrorless especially against 3 'big players'. They may have lots of experience but that still hasnt prevented them from having woefully uncompetitive video autofocus (even with a small sensor.) I think Panasonic has been taking a lot of missteps recently - not capitalizing on their competitive advantage (by removing ibis from the GH5s) (or handing the update for the LX100 to the teaboy to do over lunch) and not resolving their weaknesses (as in sorting out their video autofocus). I suspect this will be another stumble....

They may prove me wrong - a full frame LX100 with a Leica fast zoom - now that would be innovative and different....

[MdB]

Until Sony made sensors available that could downsample on the fly for third parties, everyone cropped to get 4K. Nikon, Panasonic, Sony, Leica and Canon. 

I see only Canon get flogged for it though. It was fine when the GH4 cropped, fine that that X-T2 and X-H1 crop. Fine that the SL crops... 

Yes Canon don’t buy their sensors from Sony. Thank you Sony for giving most other brands cutting edge tech. 

[Robert Collins]

2 minutes ago, MdB said:

Until Sony made sensors available that could downsample on the fly for third parties, everyone cropped to get 4K. Nikon, Panasonic, Sony, Leica and Canon. 

I see only Canon get flogged for it though. It was fine when the GH4 cropped, fine that that X-T2 and X-H1 crop. Fine that the SL crops... 

Yes Canon don’t buy their sensors from Sony. Thank you Sony for giving most other brands cutting edge tech. 

I agree. But that sort of raises a fundamental question. Is it that Canon is crippling their cameras or is it that their technology is crippled??

[jonpais]

Not all crops were created equal - a 1.17x crop is a wee different from a 1.74x crop. If the crop on the Canons were small, I don't think anyone would be crying about it. But they've been substantial.

[MdB]

1 minute ago, jonpais said:

Not all crops were created equal - a 1.17x crop is a wee different from a 1.74x crop.

Actually both end up being about the same. 

6 minutes ago, Robert Collins said:

I agree. But that sort of raises a fundamental question. Is it that Canon is crippling their cameras or is it that their technology is crippled??

Canon's technology is behind. Then again they could have put the 1DX II sensor in it, that probably would have gone down better. 

 

[jonpais]

They end up being the same, then I start asking why I’m not shooting with a Fuji that’s more video focused. For a lot less money.

[Django]

FWIW the 5D4 sensor is 30.4MP vs 30.3MP on the EOS R. incremental difference i know but could mean technically not same (old) sensor.

We'll know for sure tomorrow:

CRINGE

[Aussie Ash]

Panasonic are going to have a problem pricing their new FF camera is it going to be more than than Gh5S ???

Our Ausi prices are roughly

 GH5S-$3300

Nikon Z6 $3100

Sony A7III $3000

GH 5 $2500

[EthanAlexander]

 

24 minutes ago, MdB said:

Actually both end up being about the same. 

The biggest difference is that the 1.74x crop is on a FF sensor that doesn't allow EF-S lenses (at least not native Canon) so that's a substantial difference that is extremely hard to combat. 

[Andrew Reid]

16 minutes ago, Django said:

FWIW the 5D4 sensor is 30.4MP vs 30.3MP on the EOS R. incremental difference i know but could mean technically not same (old) sensor.

The sensor total count is 31.7 megapixels on both the 5D IV and EOS R.

Does not bode well.

[Django]

Right well at least EOS R has the new Digic 8 processor (vs Digic 6+ on 5D4). hopefully peaking & eye-AF trickles up from M50..

[mercer]

16 minutes ago, EthanAlexander said:

 

The biggest difference is that the 1.74x crop is on a FF sensor that doesn't allow EF-S lenses (at least not native Canon) so that's a substantial difference that is extremely hard to combat. 

Who is to say it won’t take ef-s lenses? Supposedly there is an ef-s crop mode. Which is why I keep saying there may not be a 4K crop. Why would they have an ef-s crop mode? Would the ef-s crop be on top of the supposed 4K crop? Or will the ef-s crop mode be smaller than the regular 4K crop?

[anonim]

30 minutes ago, Aussie Ash said:

Panasonic are going to have a problem pricing their new FF camera is it going to be more than than Gh5S ???

Our Ausi prices are roughly

 GH5S-$3300

Nikon Z6 $3100

Sony A7III $3000

GH 5 $2500

https://www.eglobalcentraluk.com/panasonic-lumix-dmc-gh5s-camera-body-only-pal.html

GH5s - 1453 GBP

GH5 - 1140 GBP

[Andrew Reid]

12 minutes ago, Django said:

Right well at least EOS R has the new Digic 8 processor (vs Digic 6+ on 5D4). hopefully peaking & eye-AF trickles up from M50..

Unless the sensor dramatically speeds-up, it won't matter much. The rolling shutter was already borderline unusable in 4K on the 5D Mark IV with a 1.74x crop. Imagine what it would be like at full image height, at the same slow scan-rate.

Best we can hope for is pixel binning 4K.

[MdB]

39 minutes ago, jonpais said:

They end up being the same, then I start asking why I’m not shooting with a Fuji that’s more video focused. For a lot less money.

Well ignoring the X-T3 for a moment, the X-H1 is more video focussed how? Certainly doesn't have the same level of AF. Doesn't shoot All-I high bitrate. Doesn't have dual slots either. Small battery with poor battery life. Then finally - How do you know it is 'a lot less' money? 

33 minutes ago, Django said:

FWIW the 5D4 sensor is 30.4MP vs 30.3MP on the EOS R. incremental difference i know but could mean technically not same (old) sensor.

Interesting. The M50 from memory had an incrementally different sensor with slightly different pixel count. That sensor AFAIK was a reasonable step up from earlier M5 etc (although most assume they are the same). 

23 minutes ago, EthanAlexander said:

The biggest difference is that the 1.74x crop is on a FF sensor that doesn't allow EF-S lenses (at least not native Canon) so that's a substantial difference that is extremely hard to combat. 

Well luckily there are stuff-all Canon EF-S lenses anyway. But that's not an issue with the EOS R anyway. 

16 minutes ago, Django said:

Right well at least EOS R has the new Digic 8 processor (vs Digic 6+ on 5D4). hopefully peaking & eye-AF trickles up from M50..

Should do. The IPB 4K codec has. 

7 minutes ago, anonim said:

https://www.eglobalcentraluk.com/panasonic-lumix-dmc-gh5s-camera-body-only-pal.html

GH5s - 1453 GBP

GH5 - 1140 GBP

No clue what the point is...

 

4 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

Unless the sensor dramatically speeds-up, it won't matter much. The rolling shutter was already borderline unusable in 4K on the 5D Mark IV with a 1.74x crop. Imagine what it would be like at full image height, at the same slow scan-rate.

Best we can hope for is pixel binning 4K.

A lot of people claimed the faster processing by Fuji meant considerably better RS on the X-T2 than the A6300. Not sure the truth behind it. X-T2 is my experience has just as bad rolling shutter as the 5D IV in my experience. 

[Yurolov]

11 minutes ago, mercer said:

Who is to say it won’t take ef-s lenses? Supposedly there is an ef-s crop mode. Which is why I keep saying there may not be a 4K crop. Why would they have an ef-s crop mode? Would the ef-s crop be on top of the supposed 4K crop? Or will the ef-s crop mode be smaller than the regular 4K crop?

yes this does seem to indicate some kind of 4k pixel binning situation with a crop mode with efs glass.

[Andrew Reid]

19 minutes ago, MdB said:

Well ignoring the X-T3 for a moment, the X-H1 is more video focussed how? Certainly doesn't have the same level of AF. Doesn't shoot All-I high bitrate. Doesn't have dual slots either. Small battery with poor battery life. Then finally - How do you know it is 'a lot less' money?

You clearly have never used the X-H1 as it does have dual card slots.

https://***URL removed***/reviews/fujifilm-x-h1/2

ALL-I is 35 minutes per 128GB card on the EOS R.

It is a very inefficient way to shoot video and most people want IPB at a high bitrate (200Mbit like the Fuji provides).

X-H1 battery life is just fine, and even better with the grip. It's ZERO problem.

Quote

The M50 from memory had an incrementally different sensor with slightly different pixel count. That sensor AFAIK was a reasonable step up from earlier M5 etc (although most assume they are the same).

Yes and still a massive 4K crop.

Quote

A lot of people claimed the faster processing by Fuji meant considerably better RS on the X-T2 than the A6300. Not sure the truth behind it. X-T2 is my experience has just as bad rolling shutter as the 5D IV in my experience. 

X-T2 has less rolling shutter in 4K than the 5D IV. I have tried both and still own an X-T2.

It is not the image processing that matters, but the CMOS rolling shutter speed.

[MdB]

22 minutes ago, mercer said:

Supposedly there is an ef-s crop mode. Which is why I keep saying there may not be a 4K crop.

AFAIK the EF-S crop mode references are for stills? I could be wrong, would need to have another look through the data sheet. 

1 hour ago, Robert Collins said:

The M43 sensor size brings a lot of advantages to video - better ibis, faster frame rates, more bit depth, higher bit rates and lower cost - than can be achieved with a bigger sensor.

Not sure all of those are advantages specific to smaller sensors. 

1 hour ago, Robert Collins said:

And of course they enjoy the widest and most mature, native lens lineup of any mirrorless system.

Hmmm, but there are so many incompatibilities and issues if not using 'on-brand' lenses in m43's I'm not sure that's actually a strength. Pretty sure EF is still a bigger system and there isn't the incompatibility issues that Panasonic have. 

[jonpais]

Let’s just say that if the situation was reversed, and there was a 1.74x crop in stills instead of video... ? There is a chance in hell 4K isn’t cropped in this ‘entry level’ Canon. They could care less about video. Look at their 6D mark II - $1,600 for soft 1080p. ?