4 way battle - rating the chances of Panasonic vs Canon vs Nikon vs Sony full frame mirrorless systems

[Andrew Reid]

  On 9/4/2018 at 3:20 PM, MdB said:

AFAIK the EF-S crop mode references are for stills? I could be wrong, would need to have another look through the data sheet.

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The specs sheet references the fact you can't use EF-S crop mode in 1080/60p. Only at 30p and under.

So it is not just a stills mode.

It might be unavailable in 4K, or they might have squeezed a slightly wider pixel readout onto the sensor to give 1.6x 4K, but no full frame.

This still sucks, because it is a full frame camera. If I wanted APS-C, I'd buy APS-C (and save money).

The 28-70mm F2 will be pretty pointless at 1.6x or 1.75x crop.

It would need a Speed Booster and older DSLR glass on it, or the Sigma 18-35mm but even that is not all that wide at 1.75x crop.

  2 minutes ago, MdB said:

Hmmm, but there are so many incompatibilities and issues if not using 'on-brand' lenses in m43's I'm not sure that's actually a strength. Pretty sure EF is still a bigger system and there isn't the incompatibility issues that Panasonic have. 

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You are such a Canon fanboy, aren't you?

[mercer]

  On 9/4/2018 at 3:20 PM, MdB said:

AFAIK the EF-S crop mode references are for stills? I could be wrong, would need to have another look through the data sheet. 

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On page 8 of 15 of the leaked pdf, it shows this chart...

[MdB]

  On 9/4/2018 at 3:20 PM, Andrew Reid said:

You clearly have never used the X-H1 as it does have dual card slots.

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Not for video it doesn't. 

  On 9/4/2018 at 3:20 PM, Andrew Reid said:

ALL-I is 35 minutes per 128GB card on the EOS R.

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Nice to have the option. Not everyone is recording hours of speeches. It still has the IPB mode. Fuji offers one only option. 

  On 9/4/2018 at 3:20 PM, Andrew Reid said:

It is a very inefficient way to shoot video and most people want IPB at a high bitrate (200Mbit like the Fuji provides).

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Something you've polled? The Canon has the chunkiest codec of all those listed here. Will have to wait to see what the Panasonic has. 

  On 9/4/2018 at 3:20 PM, Andrew Reid said:

X-H1 battery life is just fine.

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According to? It's way behind everyone else. If you want to weigh these things up it's gotta be on more than just crop size. 

  On 9/4/2018 at 3:20 PM, Andrew Reid said:

X-T2 has less rolling shutter in 4K than the 5D IV. I have tried both and own the X-T2.

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Oh because you say it it's true? I've owned both. People raved about how good the X-T2 was (it isn't). People raved about how bad the 5D IV is (it's about the same). 

  On 9/4/2018 at 3:20 PM, Andrew Reid said:

It is not the image processing that matters, but the CMOS rolling shutter speed.

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Ok. I guess that settles that...

  On 9/4/2018 at 3:20 PM, Andrew Reid said:

Yes and still a massive 4K crop.

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'still'... weird choice of word considering the M5 doesn't have 4K. The M50 sensor also had quite a bit of extra AF area coverage (plus actually introducing 4K). But I'm sure they're exactly the same because they both say '24MP'. 

[Andrew Reid]

  On 9/4/2018 at 3:22 PM, jonpais said:

Let’s just say that if the situation was reversed, and there was a 1.74x crop in stills instead of video... ? There is a chance in hell 4K isn’t cropped in this ‘entry level’ Canon. They could care less about video. Look at their 6D mark II - $1,600 for soft 1080p. ? 

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Indeed. Imagine the uproar if Canon's first full frame mirrorless camera had a limitation where it could only shoot APS-C stills.

But video users are expected to put up with it "because.... S35".

Bullshit.

I won't be buying it if it is cropped. Doesn't matter if 1.5x crop, 1.6x crop, 1.75x crop, people can argue amongst themselves about that all day.

I will simply take my money off to Panasonic, Sony and Nikon, and call it a day.

No point having such a nice lens as a 28-70mm F2.0 if I can't make proper use of it in 4K.

[mercer]

On the chart it specifically shows the frame rates for each mode... UHD, FHD and HD. Yet they mention that the ef-s crop mode doesn’t work in FHD 60p?

[Andrew Reid]

  On 9/4/2018 at 3:28 PM, MdB said:

Not for video it doesn't.

Nice to have the option. Not everyone is recording hours of speeches. It still has the IPB mode. Fuji offers one only option. 

Something you've polled? The Canon has the chunkiest codec of all those listed here. Will have to wait to see what the Panasonic has.

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At 480Mbit you are back up at MJPEG file sizes. You put your money where your mouth is and try doing a long professional shoot with those file sizes and see how you get on...

It's all very well being an armchair shooter and Canon fanboy, but that's not reality.

And it is probably still 8bit. Not even 4:2:2 this time.

I am sure you will find a way to defend that as well.

The Z7 has it for breakfast. Better internal codec. LOG. HDMI is 10bit. And so on.

  Just now, MdB said:

'still'... weird choice of word considering the M5 doesn't have 4K. The M50 sensor also had quite a bit of extra AF area coverage (plus actually introducing 4K). But I'm sure they're exactly the same because they both say '24MP'. 

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M50 has a wild 4K crop.

Canon's CMOS technology is too old to run fast enough

[jonpais]

What exactly is meant by incompatibility issues? I’ve shot with all kinds of lenses on my GM1, GH3, GH4, GH5 and G85 and never ran into any problems related to lenses at all. 

[Django]

Re: EF-S lenses:

Compatible Lenses

Canon RF lens group (excluding EF, EF-S and EF-M lenses)
When using Mount Adapter EF-EOS R: Canon EF or EF-S lenses

[MdB]

  On 9/4/2018 at 3:26 PM, Andrew Reid said:

The specs sheet references the fact you can't use EF-S crop mode in 1080/60p. Only at 30p and under.

So it is not just a stills mode.

It might be unavailable in 4K, or they might have squeezed a slightly wider pixel readout onto the sensor to give 1.6x 4K, but no full frame.

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That is curious logic. They reference a crop mode for 1080p - What makes you make the assumption that it has anything at all to do with a 1.6x crop in 4K? 

Just seems like an odd leap. The crop they have (on all the previous 4K cameras) is a 1:1 crop of pixels. That's what dictates the crop size. Obviously we don't know about a pixel binning or full sensor read option. 

  On 9/4/2018 at 3:28 PM, Andrew Reid said:

ndeed. Imagine the uproar if Canon's first full frame mirrorless camera had a limitation where it could only shoot APS-C stills.

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Again a kind of ridiculous comment. "what if they could only take one photo before they explode?!"

  On 9/4/2018 at 3:28 PM, Andrew Reid said:

But video users are expected to put up with it "because.... S35".

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Sorry where is the moaning about the 'crop' on the more expensive GH5S? Or the Leica SL having only S35 4K? You seemed to like that camera well enough. How much did people bang on about the GH4 and pretty much every Panasonic (including new ones just released) other than the GH5? 

  On 9/4/2018 at 3:28 PM, Andrew Reid said:

Bullshit

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Indeed.

  On 9/4/2018 at 3:28 PM, Andrew Reid said:

I won't be buying it if it is cropped. Doesn't matter if 1.5x crop, 1.6x crop, 1.75x crop, people can argue amongst themselves about that all day.

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Here's a list of cameras (that I know of) that you have bought with 4K 'crops':

GH4

Leica SL

A99 II (same as A7R II)

A7R II (full frame was unusably bad, supersampled S35 was way better)

A7 III (crops in 30p)

X-T2

X-H1

GX85

1DC

NX500

Need I go on? It has literally been the latest round of camera powered by Sony sensors that haven't needed it. 

  On 9/4/2018 at 3:32 PM, Andrew Reid said:

At 480Mbit you are back up at MJPEG file sizes.

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And? Isn't that the same bitrates as Panasonic are 'famously' providing in their superior video abilities? 

  On 9/4/2018 at 3:32 PM, Andrew Reid said:

You put your money where your mouth is and try doing a long professional shoot with those file sizes and see how you get on...

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Not even remotely a problem. The last thing of any real expense is memory cards on a long professional shoot. I seriously doubt I would use ANY of these toys on a long professional shoot. 

  On 9/4/2018 at 3:32 PM, Andrew Reid said:

It's all very well being an armchair shooter and Canon fanboy, but that's not reality.

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Ok now you're making digs, don't like having people disagree with you huh? Funny last week I was named a Sony fanboy. What's the reality? 

  On 9/4/2018 at 3:32 PM, Andrew Reid said:

And it is probably still 8bit. Not even 4:2:2 this time.

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Why? Because you're so angry at the 'fanboy' that you'll just lash out at BS for the sake of it? 

  On 9/4/2018 at 3:32 PM, Andrew Reid said:

I am sure you will find a way to defend that as well.

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Defend what? 

  On 9/4/2018 at 3:32 PM, Andrew Reid said:

The Z7 has it for breakfast. Better internal codec.

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100Mbps 8bit 4:2:0... You're in dream land. S35 the only way to get decent video quality... Yeah sounds like it's thumping the Canon already

  On 9/4/2018 at 3:32 PM, Andrew Reid said:

LOG. HDMI is 10bit. And so on.

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Oh please do tell me what the 'and so on' is? Nikon only has Log on HDMI out and same with 10bit. Are you going to shoot everything to an external monitor? Or are you going to stick with the dreadful internal 8bit with no Log? Worse AF. Pathetic line up of lenses. Sounds super! At least use a Sony...

  On 9/4/2018 at 3:32 PM, Andrew Reid said:

M50 has a wild 4K crop.

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Still didn't answer the question. The M5 has no 4K, so how does that sensor 'still' have a 4K crop. It is the first time it was used. So is it a new sensor? Or the same? 

"M50 has a wild 4K crop"

Brillant, well done. 

  On 9/4/2018 at 3:32 PM, Andrew Reid said:

Canon's CMOS technology is too old to run fast enough

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This is definitely true. Sony provides all those other brands that would be up the creek without them...

  On 9/4/2018 at 3:34 PM, jonpais said:

What exactly is meant by incompatibility issues? I’ve shot with all kinds of lenses on my GM1, GH3, GH4, GH5 and G85 and never ran into any problems related to lenses at all.

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No DFD with Olympus (or anyone else's) lenses, even half of Panasonic's range. Weird mix of what does and does not work with the mixed IS. Clutched MF / AF works differently. Digital corrections. Sensor reflections due to different filter stacks. How do they suit? Then there is the huge difference in IS strategies between brands, that one's always fun. 

  On 9/4/2018 at 3:35 PM, Django said:

Re: EF-S lenses:

Compatible Lenses

Canon RF lens group (excluding EF, EF-S and EF-M lenses)
When using Mount Adapter EF-EOS R: Canon EF or EF-S lenses

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Context? 

[Shirozina]

4 x new full frame cameras + format wars = unprecedented forum hysteria!!!!!

 

[jonpais]

@MdB When you shoot with different brands, you always run into stuff I’m sure.

#1. Clutch MF works fine on my cameras.

#2. Not sure what you’re talking about digital corrections? I’m trying to understand... Sigma’s Contemporary lineup works with digital corrections. I shoot Olympus all the time, the Pro series is optically outstanding even with no corrections.

#3. No idea what you mean by sensor reflections - are you shooting these in a lab or out in the real world? Or just pulling my leg?

And IBIS is excellent even without IS lenses. A non-issue if ever there was one.

Edit: But I greatly appreciate being able to buy lenses by the same manufacturer within weeks of purchasing the camera, all with the same outstanding build and optical quality, like Sony or Fuji. I really don’t like spending years growing a collection from a grab bag of companies.

[MdB]

  On 9/4/2018 at 4:15 PM, jonpais said:

When you shoot with different brands, you always run into stuff I’m sure.

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True. But most systems are made by one brand, except m43’s. 

  On 9/4/2018 at 4:15 PM, jonpais said:

Clutch MF works fine on my cameras.

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It operates differently on Olympus and Panasonic cameras. Whether it bothers someone is another matter. 

  On 9/4/2018 at 4:15 PM, jonpais said:

Not sure what you’re talking about digital corrections? I’m trying to understand... Sigma’s Contemporary lineup works with digital corrections. I shoot Olympus all the time, the Pro series is optically outstanding even with no corrections.

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They don’t apply the same corrections. 

  On 9/4/2018 at 4:15 PM, jonpais said:

No idea what you mean by sensor reflections - are you shooting these in a lab or out in the real world? Or just pulling my leg?

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Look up m43’s purple green blobs. They have different sensor stacks and the optical designs are design around the different stacks. The stacks are part of the optical considerations. Sure they ‘work’-ish, but doesn’t mean they are well optimised.

  On 9/4/2018 at 4:15 PM, jonpais said:

And IBIS is excellent even without IS lenses. A non-issue if ever there was one.

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Great! Now what about all the models that don’t / didn’t have IBIS? Or had IBIS that didn’t work in video? Now pair that with a system that favours different focussing types. It makes for one mount with many different ‘compatibility’ layers to consider. 

[jonpais]

Amazing I can shoot at all! ? See my edited comment above if you haven’t already.

[Cliff Totten]

I think that Panasonic has the biggest balls of any of the big companies. With the GH5 and GH5-5 they had ZERO fear to market against the bigger sensor companies. I always thought they were like a wolverine in the forest absolutely willing and eager to attack wolves, mountain lions ang grizzely bears all day long....absolutely agressive and fearless.

If we see them going full frame with that same ferocious mentality. My God, they will dump everything known to man into that thing. They will do things that Sony and Canon will be too terrified to do. 10bit CODECS, All I frame, 6k sensor readout and internal recording. Anamorphic modes....maybe even raw sensor data output? Yeah.....they got the biggest marketing balls.

[Trek of Joy]

IMO, there's only one way for a Panasonic FF camera to gain any traction - use the EF mount and essentially make a FF GH5. With a new mount, stills shooters aren't going to touch this camera for years (assuming they bring out a full lens lineup) and video shooters willing to buy into a new mount are a small subset of users - and Panasonic is already a smaller niche brand anyway. Panasonic going FF with a new mount is certainly going to be the odd-man out. Especially if they keep trying (and failing) to convince people that DFD is better than a hybrid AF system. A EF GH5 would be appealing to the video crowd and it would be a useful addition to a Canon shooters kit. Release it with 24 and 45 mp sensors to differentiate it from Canon offerings they'd be on to something. Without a massive lens catalog like CaNikon's combined 250 million lenses in the wild that can be adapted to their new mirrorless bodies, I really don't see how Panasonic is going to compete with anything stills oriented from Canon, Nikon and Sony - and that's still the driving force in ILC sales.

Then there's Canon - given they still don't have a BSI sensor and so far haven't been able to make significant gains with readout times, I'd expect the crop and rolling shutter to be every bit as bad as current models. They're still a generation or two behind Sony. Its obvious with the RF leaks, they're focusing on their strengths - lenses. Its also an interesting conundrum with three separate mounts in a declining market - how much do they commit to EF and EOS-m lenses going forward? Plus there's no seamless move from M to RF. What happens when they bring a APS-c camera in the R line with no crop lenses? This is what you'd call some really poor product planning. The R mount makes a lot of sense, but if you want to go smaller with Canon you're using two mounts with incompatible lenses.

Its only one camera, but the R is a lukewarm release at best. Canon is now protecting their cinema line AND their upper tier of DSLR's. There's no compelling reason for a Canon shooter to add a R to their kit, you would be buying a mirrorless just for the sake of buying a mirrorless, it really offers nothing over a 5d4. They've years to map out their mirrorless strategy, the RF mount makes the M mount look like a colossal misstep. And they're now the only mirrorless without a IBIS body. 

Many here pan the Nikon Z's, but they got a lot more right than Canon. The bodies are a compelling alternative to their DSLR's and offer features not found in any other Nikon body. At least if you're buying a Z6/7, you're bringing something new to your kit beyond a EVF. That's not the case with the R.

Its going to take awhile for CaNikon to gain significant traction, but at the moment Nikon looks better positioned to make waves in mirrorless compared to Canon.

Chris

[MdB]

  On 9/4/2018 at 4:29 PM, jonpais said:

Amazing I can shoot at all! ?

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Same can be said about the complaints pegged at Canon. 

  On 9/4/2018 at 4:30 PM, Cliff Totten said:

they got the biggest marketing balls.

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They needed to so they didn’t shut down the whole division. 

  On 9/4/2018 at 4:31 PM, Trek of Joy said:

here pan the Nikon Z's, but they got a lot more right than Canon. The bodies are a compelling alternative to their DSLR's and offer features not found in any other Nikon body. At least if you're buying a Z6/7, you're bringing something new to your kit beyond a EVF. That's not the case with the R.

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Zeees are just a mirrorless body for F mount users. Same as the R. Nobody expected anything more surely? That’s all the fanboys needed. The compelling thing for RF other than the EVF is the lenses, makes one want to actually buy some new lenses, not just adapt them. Nikon Zeee bodies have arguably better specs, but there is nothing enticing about their mediocre lens lineup. Canon on the other hand have made all four lenses really indispensable and a huge part of buying into the new format. For Canon that in itself is a much more useful thing to do. 

[Ivko Pivko]

The GH5 just needed better AF like DPAF or PDAF to be the perfect camera. Sony just needs a better screen, be it tilty-swively or 90º up to appeal to people like bloggers and maybe 50p 4k and 10bit for cinematographers.

Canon and Nikon are entering the fray bringing numbers and history but for some reason they're going to protect their DSLR line or their Cinema line. That gives Pana and Sony a very good opportunity to react and be in a better position when the landslide arrives. It's either that or being crushed to bits by the dinosaurs. Really rooting for the nimble mammals here.

[TheDingo]

So one of the four contenders ( Canon ) doesn't include a LOG profile. ( I am assuming that Panasonic will include a LOG profile )

Do you think Canon will offer C-Log for purchase like the 5D Mk4 does ?

[mercer]

  On 9/4/2018 at 5:14 PM, TheDingo said:

So one of the four contenders ( Canon ) doesn't include a LOG profile. ( I am assuming that Panasonic will include a LOG profile )

Do you think Canon will offer C-Log for purchase like the 5D Mk4 does ?

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We don’t know if the EOS-R will have Canon Log yet, the camera will be officially announced tomorrow. Right now, everything is based on rumors and conjecture... some stronger than others.

[wolf33d]

Your last sentance is  wrong: won’t be enough for all videographers if it is a GH5 FF. The Video AF is extremely important. Should they stay with their old shitty video AF, then forget them.

Also even though not FF, the new XT3 with 4K60p 10 bit will compete with those cameras in video.