4 way battle - rating the chances of Panasonic vs Canon vs Nikon vs Sony full frame mirrorless systems

[Trek of Joy]

4 minutes ago, MdB said:

Three native lenses champ. A slow zoom and two expensive f/1.8 primes. Astonishing. Talking adapted? What a joke. Get a clue. 

As opposed to a $500 35mm, a $1100 24-105, a $2300 50 and a $3000 zoom? You're seriously bashing Nikon's initial rollout compared to Canon's? How many are going to buy a $3000 zoom or a $2300 prime over adapting EF lenses? The whole R line is based around Canon shooters adapting their lenses, hence the THREE adapters. Right now they're both counting on existing DSLR users adapting lenses until they round things out. But what's worse is the fact that they've shown zero sensor advancement in the two years since the 5d4 was released. We already know Nikon has 2.8 zooms and a number of primes coming in the next year. All of your Zed bashing are issues Canon has as well, combined with no IBIS and a crappier sensor that's a couple generations behind current Sony offerings. 

Are you a paid Canon troll?

SMH.

[Mattias Burling]

Choosing between all of them would for me go like this.

1. Do they all take good enough stills? Yes

2. Good enough 1080p? Yes

3. Are there available lenses for my needs? Maybe

4. Of the once left, do they work ergonomically and button wise according to my style? Maybe

5. Of the once left (if more than one), is there something else like mojo or a neat feature like IBIS that could be useful? Probably

Take my money.

[IronFilm]

1 hour ago, Danyyyel said:

And tell me what should have the fanboys have wanted that much more than great body and sealing, great/best evf, FF DX 4k, 120 fps fhd, IBIS, great video AF and 10 bit/nlong with my Ninja flame. All of that for $ 2000? Tell me another camera that does that much for this price nowwwwwwwwwwwww, and not some mythical camera that will come in the future and at this price. Because lets be clear the A73 just came out 6 month ago and I don't think it will be upgraded to A74 for at least a year.

And even when the a7mk4 does arrive next year (or maybe even 2020) then I'd not at all be surprised if it still lacking 10bit. 

 

[Trek of Joy]

1 hour ago, IronFilm said:

And even when the a7mk4 does arrive next year (or maybe even 2020) then I'd not at all be surprised if it still lacking 10bit. 

 

The a74 is still likely over 1.5+ years away and I'd be surprised if they did 10-bit. But I doubt we see a new model less than 2 years apart. We'll see what the a7s3 brings, if it lacks 10-bit, the line in the sand between the Alpha's and the FS will not change anytime soon.

The real shocker is Fuji bringing 10-bit 4k60p to the XT3, rumored to be recorded internally. If that shares the same sensor with the new Sony APS-c cam and Sony goes toe-to-toe with features, either could be a really great option.

I'm not buying anything until all of the new models are in the wild and I have a chance to rent them.

Cheers

Chris

[Danyyyel]

1 hour ago, MdB said:

Three native lenses champ. A slow zoom and two expensive f/1.8 primes. Astonishing. Talking adapted? What a joke. Get a clue. 

Bahahaha yeah except Nikon are locking down the mount and protocols. 

Got a bit more of a clue then some mindless fanboy spouting his mouth off. 

Great and still only useful for F mount fanboys... which is what I said to begin with. Not going to build up a base of F mount lenses just to mount on a camera that is flavour of the month with some small ‘spec’ advantage. The ‘system’ has ZERO enticing about it (again unless you’re already a die-hard Nikon fanboy, in which case it will be the ‘best’ anyway). 

As for all that for $2k. I wouldn’t care if it was $500 I still have no use for it. If you gave me one for free I’d sell it to fund something useful. 

I’m pretty sure there has never been a more pointless turd of a camera...

You get a clue, every reviewer has said that the AF works the same as on native Fmount camera, it is even weather sealed. Now the AF system is quite different in use than traditional Nikon system, so some who have only used it for 1 hour might have got it wrong, but if it failed or had quirks, it affected both system. Dpreview even makes the bold claim (at least until the Canon eosR) that the z7 had the best video AF period. Or perhaps if you spent a week with the camera you could tell us your experience !!!

 

At least two people have tested  sigma art lens with the adapter and it worked as good as on traditional Fmount camera. I am realistic, given the history of Nikon and Canon, I don't expect them to share their new lens mount as they cover all the range and contrary to Sony and M4/3 (M4/3 is by nature open) they had some catch up to do, so they willingly open theirs. I personally don't care because I can use a ton of the lens we have in the Fmount range and I guess it will be the same for a lot of Nikon users. In fact I am grateful that gave that choice so I don't have to change system overnight and don't feel pressured at all to invest thousands to renew my lens collection. It give me time to upgrade at my rhythm and need as time goes by and I see where the Z or F mount evolve. They also published their lens roadmap, and 90% of peoples need will be filled in one year.

As a Nikon user, I have been very critical about the video side of Nikon cameras even if image wise it was very good, the rest was bad compared to the competion. In the mean time I bought a canon 7d then a gh2 until I got my D750. I have even been tempted by the A73 at the start of the year even if I dislike Sony zombie colors. But credit where credit is due, Nikon has done a great job for video, it is still the only FF camera with 10 bit 422 LOG capable until now. If tomorrow Panasonic brings out a FF gh5 with super AF, I would recommend it over the Z6 for about the same price, I will recommend it to anyone who is not tied to any legacy lens system. By the way, I don't give a shit about your need, its a forum, a place for people to share but not spout nonsence about low info people that live only on sound bite and don't take 5 minutes to do some research and share something constructive to the group.

 

2 hours ago, IronFilm said:

And even when the a7mk4 does arrive next year (or maybe even 2020) then I'd not at all be surprised if it still lacking 10bit. 

 

I think Sony has no way than to go 10 bit and even internal by 2020. With Nikon and now Canon offering it, it would be crazy for them not to. I think the next step by 2020 will be 4k 60p and 10 bit internal for FF MILC cameras. If else it would be suicide, I don't see anyone now moving from Nikon moving to them. Canon I am not sure with the a bit underwhelming EOS R spec. But either way, no more free lunch for them in the FF MILC market.

1 hour ago, Trek of Joy said:

The a74 is still likely over 1.5+ years away and I'd be surprised if they did 10-bit. But I doubt we see a new model less than 2 years apart. We'll see what the a7s3 brings, if it lacks 10-bit, the line in the sand between the Alpha's and the FS will not change anytime soon.

The real shocker is Fuji bringing 10-bit 4k60p to the XT3, rumored to be recorded internally. If that shares the same sensor with the new Sony APS-c cam and Sony goes toe-to-toe with features, either could be a really great option.

I'm not buying anything until all of the new models are in the wild and I have a chance to rent them.

Cheers

Chris

Yep, video is becoming at the age of maturity in the DSLR/MILC market cameras and spec won't move that much as in photography. It will only be incremental , but the cameras will be so good that if you can't do nice video with them, it is your fault and not the camera. Until Pana lauch its FF camera, this round I would give to Nikon in the FF MILC and if rummors turn out true about Fuji, the Fuji for the Apsc MILC.

[Mokara]

3 hours ago, Mattias Burling said:

Choosing between all of them would for me go like this.

1. Do they all take good enough stills? Yes

2. Good enough 1080p? Yes

3. Are there available lenses for my needs? Maybe

4. Of the once left, do they work ergonomically and button wise according to my style? Maybe

5. Of the once left (if more than one), is there something else like mojo or a neat feature like IBIS that could be useful? Probably

Take my money.

If you are shooting stills or 1080p, pretty much all of the current cameras from leading manufacturers are good enough. What you choose in the end comes down more to what physically feels good for you personally.

It is only when you get to more demanding applications that differences are important.

[Trek of Joy]

57 minutes ago, Danyyyel said:

Yep, video is becoming at the age of maturity in the DSLR/MILC market cameras and spec won't move that much as in photography. It will only be incremental , but the cameras will be so good that if you can't do nice video with them, it is your fault and not the camera. Until Pana lauch its FF camera, this round I would give to Nikon in the FF MILC and if rummors turn out true about Fuji, the Fuji for the Apsc MILC.

Give it a couple weeks until we see how everything shakes down. But so far I agree, Nikon has moved the needle the most. I still think Panasonic's announcement will be the mysterious 8k ILC they've been hinting at, which would be something in the neighborhood of a 40mp 3:2 sensor. I still believe using the EF mount makes the most sense too, otherwise it'll be an incredibly small volume camera, and anything Panasonic is already small volume compared to CaNikon and even Sony.

Good times, in a few weeks all will be revealed!

Chris

[Mattias Burling]

6 minutes ago, Mokara said:

If you are shooting stills or 1080p, pretty much all of the current cameras from leading manufacturers are good enough. What you choose in the end comes down more to what physically feels good for you personally.

It is only when you get to more demanding applications that differences are important.

Yes you understood correctly.

[Mokara]

3 hours ago, IronFilm said:

And even when the a7mk4 does arrive next year (or maybe even 2020) then I'd not at all be surprised if it still lacking 10bit. 

 

The next camera to arrive after the S will be the a7R4. 

The 8 bit limitation in current cameras is probably due to the LSI, that is hardware so it can't be enabled by firmware. The next generation LSI almost certainly will not have that restriction though. The current LSI is 2016 technology, so we could expect the next generation to arrive in late 2019, which would be in time for the a7R4 (although it will likely first appear in one of the RX cameras). I think you will see 10 bit 4:2:2 60p as standard at that point, possibly not internally if the processor is putting out too much heat, but definitely through the HDMI.

[MdB]

6 hours ago, Danyyyel said:

You get a clue, every reviewer has said that the AF works the same as on native Fmount camera, it is even weather sealed.

Hahaha, still not native. Try again. 

 

6 hours ago, Danyyyel said:

Now the AF system is quite different in use than traditional Nikon system, so some who have only used it for 1 hour might have got it wrong, but if it failed or had quirks, it affected both system.

Fanboy talk. 

6 hours ago, Danyyyel said:

Dpreview even makes the bold claim (at least until the Canon eosR) that the z7 had the best video AF period. Or perhaps if you spent a week with the camera you could tell us your experience !!!

I don't need to, I have zero interest in it - Did you not understand that? They have no lenses I want and I'm not about to start buying F mounts to try and fill in the enormous gaps. The Zee launch was at best pathetic as a new system. Way behind what Sony managed to do 5 years ago. Way behind Fuji. Way behind what Canon did days later. No amount of minor 'spec' differences and fanboyism is going to change that for me. MAYBE if they opened the mount so there would be a future better selection of lenses than what Nikon wants to provide and the ability to say adapt EF mount, but until then the 'system' is rubbish. It's ONLY use is for existing F-mount fanboys. Then you bang on about how compatible it is with F-mount. Guess who doesn't care?! ANYBODY who doesn't have F mount. 

6 hours ago, Danyyyel said:

At least two people have tested  sigma art lens with the adapter and it worked as good as on traditional Fmount camera.

Oh wow!

6 hours ago, Danyyyel said:

I am realistic

Yeah you sound it. "It's so perfect with every lens ever because some paid Nikon F mount fanboy said so..."

6 hours ago, Danyyyel said:

and contrary to Sony and M4/3 (M4/3 is by nature open) they had some catch up to do, so they willingly open theirs

Nikon have the catching up to do. Again, this camera is for existing fanboys only. 

6 hours ago, Danyyyel said:

In fact I am grateful that gave that choice so I don't have to change system overnight and don't feel pressured at all to invest thousands to renew my lens collection.

Fanboys are always grateful, they 'take it' so gleefully. 

6 hours ago, Danyyyel said:

As a Nikon user

You don't say. 

6 hours ago, Danyyyel said:

even if I dislike Sony zombie colors

Seems like you're chock full original thought too. 

6 hours ago, Danyyyel said:

Nikon has done a great job for video, it is still the only FF camera with 10 bit 422 LOG capable until now

What do you mean 'still'? It has been 'announced' for a week. It has been available on the market ZERO amount of time. The Canon might have a crop, but it too has LOG and 422 10bit (at least it has log internally) AND it works with my lenses. Granted I think the EOS R ALSO is just for fanboys with existing lenses. I am not so much a fanboy of Canon (ugh, can't think of anything worse) but I do have a lot of EF glass because it has become the de facto standard for adaptability, I can use it on pretty much any mount... EXCEPT Nikon. If only Nikon had some really compelling glass... a promise of a dumb 58mm later is not compelling. 

6 hours ago, Danyyyel said:

By the way, I don't give a shit about your need

By the way I don't give a shit that you don't give a shit. I shit on your lack of giving a shit. I also will happily shit on your Nikon. 

6 hours ago, Danyyyel said:

a place for people to share but not spout nonsence about low info people that live only on sound bite and don't take 5 minutes to do some research and share something constructive to the group.

Bahahaha! So being constructive to the group is circle jerking over your favourite brand. Funny. 

7 hours ago, Danyyyel said:

If else it would be suicide, I don't see anyone now moving from Nikon moving to them.

Not when they've got great fanboys like you

7 hours ago, Danyyyel said:

if you can't do nice video with them, it is your fault and not the camera

Oh about time some logic... How about you go and apply that. 

7 hours ago, Danyyyel said:

Until Pana lauch its FF camera, this round I would give to Nikon in the FF MILC and if rummors turn out true about Fuji, the Fuji for the Apsc MILC.

Fuji looks great, at least it has some lenses

5 hours ago, Trek of Joy said:

But so far I agree, Nikon has moved the needle the most.

A me too product with a slight spec boost but no lenses. It's hardly a game changer. It stops the exodus from the big two. Same with the R. 

5 hours ago, Trek of Joy said:

I still think Panasonic's announcement will be the mysterious 8k ILC they've been hinting at, which would be something in the neighborhood of a 40mp 3:2 sensor. I still believe using the EF mount makes the most sense too, otherwise it'll be an incredibly small volume camera, and anything Panasonic is already small volume compared to CaNikon and even Sony.

Sounds super interesting. Something I could definitely get behind. 

 

[Robert Collins]

Seems that reception for the Eos R is pretty muted from this poll taken in the Eos R mirrorless forum on DPR.

3% will definitely buy - a figure so low it is usually reserved for the release of new selfie sticks...

A similar poll taken in the Z mirrorless forum gives the Nikon Z system a much better response.

[MdB]

1 hour ago, Robert Collins said:

Seems that reception for the Eos R is pretty muted from this poll taken in the Eos R mirrorless forum on DPR.

Looks like. It is a fairly bland camera. Always knew Canon were going to mirrorless-ify the 5D IV guts. It was always going to be not that fast (anyone used a 5D IV in live view? The claims about it's abilities were grossly over exaggerated by fanboys - Claim about how great DPAF is). 

I don't think there are going to be many rushing to buy it. 

1 hour ago, Robert Collins said:

A similar poll taken in the Z mirrorless forum gives the Nikon Z system a much better response.

To be fair, 5D IV users (and 1DX II and 6D II) already have the majority of what's 'new' in mirrorless, i.e. decent live view. Nikon users are 'gaining' much more for their system with the Zeeees than Canon users are with the R. 

11 hours ago, Trek of Joy said:

As opposed to a $500 35mm

With the Nikon being $800? 

11 hours ago, Trek of Joy said:

a $1100 24-105

So is Nikon's... but 35mm shorter. 

11 hours ago, Trek of Joy said:

a $2300 50

Yep. But it's also an f/1.2. 

11 hours ago, Trek of Joy said:

and a $3000 zoom

Well that's a pretty unique f/2. Very unique in fact. Plus it is only marginally more expensive than the latest round of f/2.8 pro zooms. This lens is a big deal. I expect this lens will cause more interest and potential professional switchers than any mild body spec differences (especially in video). Lenses like this make a system. How many event and wedding shooters are going to be lining up for this? The body isn't that interesting, the lenses are. 

Buy the Nikon 35mm f/1.8 and latest Nikon 24-70mm f/2.8 and you've saved a whopping $300 over the Canon 35mm f/1.8 IS Macro and 28-70mm f/2. Well plus you'll need the adapter which is how much again? $249? Now you've saved $50. I'll take the Canon thanks. 

11 hours ago, Trek of Joy said:

How many are going to buy a $3000 zoom or a $2300 prime over adapting EF lenses?

That's kind of the point though no? I mean you're right, the new R and Z are really mostly for existing users to use adapted lenses right? So at least the Canon launch lenses are offering something unique. Something that makes people actually want to bother with buying new ones rather than just adapting. I've never found f/2.8 standard zooms very exciting. Now I am buying in a system just for one (reasonably expensive) standard zoom. 

11 hours ago, Trek of Joy said:

Right now they're both counting on existing DSLR users adapting lenses until they round things out.

Sure! But they aren't just making replicas of their DSLR line in the mirrorless mount. They are actually taking advantage of the differences to make unique lenses (the 24-105 less so really, but lets call it a kit zoom). Yes I'm aware that Nikon's f/1.8 primes are more advanced than their DSLR counterpart, but Sony released similar(ish) lenses for their system 5 years ago and got slammed for not being 'professional' enough. Same with their f/4 trinity, panned for not being professional and 'slow'. 

11 hours ago, Trek of Joy said:

But what's worse is the fact that they've shown zero sensor advancement in the two years since the 5d4 was released.

A7R III has the same sensor as A7R II from two years ago. Z7 same year old sensor as the D850. The D750 had the same sensor as the D600... And RX1 and A99 and VG900 and A7 etc kept pumping that thing out for a good half decade (or more). A7 III has a downgraded sensor from the nearly 2 year old A9. Sorry where is the miraculous new tech being poured into all these cameras that aren't the R? 

11 hours ago, Trek of Joy said:

We already know Nikon has 2.8 zooms and a number of primes coming in the next year.

Their f/2.8 standard zoom is going to be how much cheaper than the Canon f/2? I mean it's only another year away, a lot of releases can happen in that time too. If one wants f/2.8 zooms they can adapt the ones already available. Again just replacing like for like. 

11 hours ago, Trek of Joy said:

All of your Zed bashing are issues Canon has as well

Really? These are my 'Zed bashings': 

- They haven't released any lenses to entice me to the 'system'. As a non F-mount user they offer me nothing. I don't buy a system just because it has one body with a mild spec increase. Especially not from a brand that has a distinct history of abandoning anything at the drop of a pin if it doesn't make them a buck in an over bloated company. 

- I see no distinct advantage over the Sony's, despite what fanboys like to think (not a bad thing if you are an F-Mount user these are finally a great option to you, the Sony's are a very capable bit of gear and to come even close to them is an achievement, let alone exceeding them on spec in some areas). 

So for the first one, yes the R DOES have some lenses I am interested in. I also suspect that Canon will have a C line camera with this mount in the near future. The adapter with drop in filter is MORE useful to me than any video feature that Nikon has. That simple thing alone. Plus yes, I am invested in EF glass so anything that can take EF (which is the point) is more interesting to me than something that doesn't or won't. 

Second. Sure. Mostly the R isn't as good as the Sony's either. Except for the use of EF glass, which is pretty good on the Sony's for stills but lacks in the video dept. 

The Canon isn't perfect. The Nikon isn't perfect. The Sony isn't perfect. The Fuji isn't perfect. The Panasonic isn't perfect...

 

[sanveer]

I am suddenly wondering why can't everyone can offer 10-bit 4-2-2 internally if the tiny Mavic 2 Pro can. That camera looks 1/3rd-1/4th the size of the various mirrorless ILCs being announced, using MicroSD cards (instead of XQD, CFast or and full sized SD Cards), and Many other size limitations. It's sensor is obviously much smaller, but so are other factors on that one.

If Panasonic can get PDAF, theoretically, it can beat almost every FF out there, as a complete package.

[JurijTurnsek]

Drone cameras are a category unto their own, because they have the best possible heat dissipation (which will never be replicated in a handheld camera).

However, I would not be surprised if DJI surprised us with a serious mirrorless entry in the future.

[IronFilm]

10 hours ago, MdB said:

The D750 had the same sensor as the D600...

The D750 is a big leap ahead camera from the D600

 

11 hours ago, MdB said:

Z7 same year old sensor as the D850.

The D850 is still a rather new camera, which until lately  was struggling to be kept in stock in many stores due to high demand for it. 

And the Z7 is a drastically new camera platform! You can't fault them for keeping a few things constant in the change over. 

 

11 hours ago, MdB said:

Especially not from a brand that has a distinct history of abandoning

Nikon stuck with their core lens mount longer than anybody else on the planet!

And now Z mount will develop into being their next main core lens mount which they'll keep on supporting from now until infinity and  beyond.

 

11 hours ago, MdB said:

The Canon isn't perfect. The Nikon isn't perfect. The Sony isn't perfect. The Fuji isn't perfect. The Panasonic isn't perfect...

Agreed. 

But the Canon is waaaaaaaaay further away from perfection. 
While the Nikon is edging the closest to "perfection", almost almost there?

7 hours ago, sanveer said:

I am suddenly wondering why can't everyone can offer 10-bit 4-2-2 internally if the tiny Mavic 2 Pro can. That camera looks 1/3rd-1/4th the size of the various mirrorless ILCs being announced, using MicroSD cards (instead of XQD, CFast or and full sized SD Cards), and Many other size limitations. It's sensor is obviously much smaller, but so are other factors on that one.

Holy crap!

That news totally flew over my head that the Mavic 2 Pro has 10bit internal!! :-o

I do believe that is even better than the Phantom 4 Pro can do? Thus surely the next Phantom will get 10bit as well. 

 

[Trek of Joy]

The EOS-R is now in the Camerasize database. I don't think Canon understands the meaning of 'go big or go home'

[IronFilm]

Sony has a 24-70 f2 lens???? That image seems like they should be meaning something else

[Mattias Burling]

Camera body size aside. Its pretty impressive that Canon made faster but still smaller lenses.

[Danyyyel]

3 hours ago, IronFilm said:

The D750 is a big leap ahead camera from the D600

 

The D850 is still a rather new camera, which until lately  was struggling to be kept in stock in many stores due to high demand for it. 

And the Z7 is a drastically new camera platform! You can't fault them for keeping a few things constant in the change over. 

 

Nikon stuck with their core lens mount longer than anybody else on the planet!

And now Z mount will develop into being their next main core lens mount which they'll keep on supporting from now until infinity and  beyond.

 

Agreed. 

But the Canon is waaaaaaaaay further away from perfection. 
While the Nikon is edging the closest to "perfection", almost almost there?

Holy crap!

That news totally flew over my head that the Mavic 2 Pro has 10bit internal!! ?

I do believe that is even better than the Phantom 4 Pro can do? Thus surely the next Phantom will get 10bit as well. 

 

That guy is a troll, don't loose your time on him, as you already seen he has zero knowledge or knowingly spouting non sense to get some attention. Someone calling Nikon D850 sensor old tech, says it all. He says he has zero interest in the Nikon but continuously comment on them.

As for the Mavic pro 2, it has a sensor at least 8 times smaller than the all these MILC and has 4 rotor than must be the largest/loudest camera fan in the world.

[Trek of Joy]

2 hours ago, Mattias Burling said:

Camera body size aside. Its pretty impressive that Canon made faster but still smaller lenses.

Smaller than what? Not smaller than the Sony's pictured.

3 hours ago, IronFilm said:

Sony has a 24-70 f2 lens???? That image seems like they should be meaning something else

Its a typo, the GM is obviously 2.8.