Ideas for the camera industry

[Andrew Reid]

I have some tips!

Summary:

1. Better sample footage at launch
2. Better availability straight after launch
3. Marketing to relevant audience online rather than biggest audience
4. Not cannibalising A7S III sales with A7 III
5. Canon full frame lenses and 1.8x crop shambles
6. Keeping Cinema EOS "seed" from photographic business planted with good video in Canon EOS range
7. Keeping people in a lens ecosystem with good bodies
8. Knowing how your "well understood" market has changed in an instant
9. Shift to high-end pricing is dangerous (China)
10. Understanding apps

Read the full article

[hyalinejim]

Nice work!

[Elias]

 

Ufffff, reading your post almost makes me want to cry, in a good way.

I've been advocating ever since the first time I saw the iPhone's App Store many years ago for camera companies to create their own App Stores, to no avail. I've talked to many camera manufacturers in person and they truly really do not care or understand the significance of this.

I'm sure Instagram and YouTube would be more than willing to help Canon, Nikon and Sony connect their cameras easily for one-clic push of images and videos to their networks, but like you said (and I also say to my fellow photographers and videoographers) they will only wake up once a market outsider comes in and eats their lunch, exactly the same as what happened in the cell phone industry when the iPhone revolutionized the mobile phone market (and see where Blackberry, Nokia and Windows Phone are today...)

[wolf33d]

Panasonic need FF and a proper AF.

Sony need to catch up on ergonomics, fully articulated screen. 

Canon needs to catch up on sensor tech for stills, and no crop and better specs (4k60p...) 

 

[seanzzxx]

I mean at this point you're just outright misrepresenting what Areia shot. Yes, he did shoot a video walking around a zoo. He also shot what I consider to be a well-shot, edited and graded video: ...

 

... as well as one comparing the Micro to the Pocket 4k, which is yet to come out (but he released the Pocket 4k footage already). I know you have seen these videos, mr. Reid, because you have commented on them on your own forums. Why are you downplaying the stuff he made? I mean the answer is obvious: it's because you weren't the one who got to make it. I really don't want to seem hostile to you on your own forums (which, don't get me wrong, I think is awesome for you to facilitate), but it's stuff like this that makes you come across as petty and vindictive, because by putting these little spins on the story you appear to be actively looking for reasons to feel slighted.

 

 

[OniBaba]

"...Do Blackmagic really think his subscribers are there for camera news? Do his subscribers even need ProRes? It’s easy to see the allure of a K-pop video with an incredible 7 million views on YouTube but the Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K footage is all shot in a zoo and out of those 300,000 subscribers just 14,000 of them have watched the footage! .."

 

Uhm, on that I would not be so sure.

There a TON of wannabe youtuber and nowadays are either your phone or a top end cameras, nothing in btw the 2 ends: lot of people will think they need the best camera in order to make their small youtube channel grow.

You can see how those successful youtuber with millions of subscribers  DO say which gear they use, and their followers duly take notice...

[Bioskop.Inc]

2 hours ago, seanzzxx said:

I mean at this point you're just outright misrepresenting what Areia shot. Yes, he did shoot a video walking around a zoo. He also shot what I consider to be a well-shot, edited and graded video

You're right, this was one of the better vids released, but mostly because he used vintage glass & the whole thing shone.

I think the bigger question here is what were BM doing in Manchester? Well, we know that the BBC has it's main hub up there now & they are one of the most rigorous testers of cameras - they have a list of cameras you can & can't use to film with. There is no wriggle room whatsoever & if it doesn't make their list you are screwed! DSLR's are not allowed, only for timelapse or extreme location shooting. It's obvious that BM have gone the ENG style route for their other cameras & if you look at the link below, you can see the report for their URSA MIni 4.6K (tier 2, oops!):

https://tech.ebu.ch/camera_reports_tech3335

The conclusion makes for interesting reading (as does the whole thing & then read the Arri one!). It would be interesting to see who they invited, my guess anyone who could get them a break in the BBC market or even the BBC themselves. Small cameras like this could be good work horses for small BBC productions, but the BBC won't use RAW or Film mode - they want good quality & quick turnaround ("fix it in post" is not a phrase to be used, ever!).

The other thing to think about is that BM seem to have forgotten the UK - last time round the Pocket's came in in 2s or 3s (Asia & US got loads). I think the tipping point for Andrew was probably that Cinema 5D got a look in & they really don't deserve to. I think most people would have preferred Andrew to see what was what, but hey, the advertising people probably don't know shit. And yes, the somewhat sloppy/unprofessional nature of some of the videos does beg the question of why they gave them to some people - they do want people to buy this thing, don't they?

Anyway, read some of those reports - very interesting & informative if you ever want to be taken seriously.

(GH5 report is on there too!)

[Andrew Reid]

2 hours ago, seanzzxx said:

I know you have seen these videos, mr. Reid, because you have commented on them on your own forums. Why are you downplaying the stuff he made? I mean the answer is obvious: it's because you weren't the one who got to make it.

Why do you always have to make things personal?

Can't I just be critical of someone's trashy K-pop video and not be jealous that he has a camera and I don't!? You are bringing ego into it where it doesn't exist.

The videos he's doing just aren't my thing. Not art-house enough. It's pop tart trash. Has it's audience, but I'm not into it. I am sure he is a lovely guy.

Quote

I really don't want to seem hostile to you on your own forums (which, don't get me wrong, I think is awesome for you to facilitate), but it's stuff like this that makes you come across as petty and vindictive, because by putting these little spins on the story you appear to be actively looking for reasons to feel slighted.

You are misinterpreting it then. Easy to do on the Internet. You're forgiven, but please... Get a separation between the criticism of someone's work and someone's personal character, ok? Two different subjects altogether!!!

57 minutes ago, Bioskop.Inc said:

You're right, this was one of the better vids released, but mostly because he used vintage glass & the whole thing shone.

I think the bigger question here is what were BM doing in Manchester? Well, we know that the BBC has it's main hub up there now & they are one of the most rigorous testers of cameras - they have a list of cameras you can & can't use to film with. There is no wriggle room whatsoever & if it doesn't make their list you are screwed! DSLR's are not allowed, only for timelapse or extreme location shooting. It's obvious that BM have gone the ENG style route for their other cameras & if you look at the link below, you can see the report for their URSA MIni 4.6K (tier 2, oops!):

Blackmagic are in Knutsford, it's just where they based an office. It was before the BBC moved up to Manchester I think.

Most of the camera companies are based in a small area between Reading / London.

Just happens BM are up North. Good to see that.

Quote

https://tech.ebu.ch/camera_reports_tech3335

The conclusion makes for interesting reading (as does the whole thing & then read the Arri one!). It would be interesting to see who they invited, my guess anyone who could get them a break in the BBC market or even the BBC themselves. Small cameras like this could be good work horses for small BBC productions, but the BBC won't use RAW or Film mode - they want good quality & quick turnaround ("fix it in post" is not a phrase to be used, ever!).

The other thing to think about is that BM seem to have forgotten the UK - last time round the Pocket's came in in 2s or 3s (Asia & US got loads). I think the tipping point for Andrew was probably that Cinema 5D got a look in & they really don't deserve to. I think most people would have preferred Andrew to see what was what, but hey, the advertising people probably don't know shit.

They didn't see the view count on the forum thread and I haven't been proactively boasting to them about my site stats

Quote

And yes, the somewhat sloppy/unprofessional nature of some of the videos does beg the question of why they gave them to some people - they do want people to buy this thing, don't they?

Anyway, read some of those reports - very interesting & informative if you ever want to be taken seriously.

(GH5 report is on there too!)

Yes followed Alan Roberts for a while. Personally I think it's too science based and there is more to a camera image than just science.

[CyclingBen]

I want a T-shirt with “pop tart trash” on it. Great phrase 

[Andrew Reid]

I'll print some for Photokina!

[thebrothersthre3]

Canon wants their camcorder/video cameras to sell well. So they will continue to stay 5 years behind the times with their SLR's. At least you can record 10 bit to an external recorder on the EOS R. Fuji seems to have everything I need right now so they are getting my cash. 

[Robert Collins]

I have one more thought about the camera industry - the camera industry is a mess.

The following is an example using Canon (yes fish in a barrel) but much the same applies to the other companies.

So imagine you are a new ILC camera purchaser and you want your first camera to be a Canon. What do you buy? And exactly what camera are they trying to sell you?

You hear that Canon makes excellent DSLRs and lenses. Great but this looks to be 'old tech' that is gradually going to be on the way out. Not something you should sensibly buy into now as it isnt likely to have great resale value.

So the future is 'mirrorless'? But which should I buy the EOS-M or the EOS-R? Well EOS-M is cheaper and has more lenses. But is Canon going to develop it further now that it has the EOS-R? Or is it another dead end? It is not as though EOS-M and EOS-R are compatible with one another in any shape or form?

So it seems that EOS-R is the future so this is the one I should buy? But I am not sure its ready. It says it has 4k but it doesnt really. It says it has slow motion 120p but without focus. And what lenses should I buy? 3 out of 4 of the new lenses weigh more than the camera. 2 out of 4 of the lenses cost more than the camera. Oh so I am supposed to buy the old legacy dslr lenses and use them on my new camera via way of 'an adapter'? I know Canon wants to sell me an adapter - they have just launched 3!!

So all in all what I see is Canon offering a bewildering array of options that for most customers will simply be 'too confusing' to buy into. They will most likely decide to 'just wait it out'.

And much the same can be said about other manufacturers. Panasonic's foray in FF devaluing the future of M43? Nikon devaluing the future of its DSLRs with the Z range? So surely Sony and Fuji will benefit from this confusion? Not at all. When Sony had the monopoly in FF mirrorless it was an easy switch but Nikon and Canon have muddied the waters, they have done enough to stop the tide of switchers without making a convincing case for their own mirrorless.

I dont see things turning out well for the camera industry in general...

[Mako Sports]

8 hours ago, seanzzxx said:

I mean at this point you're just outright misrepresenting what Areia shot. Yes, he did shoot a video walking around a zoo. He also shot what I consider to be a well-shot, edited and graded video: ...

 

... as well as one comparing the Micro to the Pocket 4k, which is yet to come out (but he released the Pocket 4k footage already). I know you have seen these videos, mr. Reid, because you have commented on them on your own forums. Why are you downplaying the stuff he made? I mean the answer is obvious: it's because you weren't the one who got to make it. I really don't want to seem hostile to you on your own forums (which, don't get me wrong, I think is awesome for you to facilitate), but it's stuff like this that makes you come across as petty and vindictive, because by putting these little spins on the story you appear to be actively looking for reasons to feel slighted.

 

 

Im not into Kpop at all but yeah I thought that video was FANTASTIC! Not sure what AR was talking about.

[sanveer]

14 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

I have some tips!

Summary:

1. Better sample footage at launch
2. Better availability straight after launch
3. Marketing to relevant audience online rather than biggest audience
4. Not cannibalising A7S III sales with A7 III
5. Canon full frame lenses and 1.8x crop shambles
6. Keeping Cinema EOS "seed" from photographic business planted with good video in Canon EOS range
7. Keeping people in a lens ecosystem with good bodies
8. Knowing how your "well understood" market has changed in an instant
9. Shift to high-end pricing is dangerous (China)
10. Understanding apps

Read the full article

Firstly, some of those visuals were absolutely stunning. IMHO you need to do more narrative work. I see a great cinematographer.

 

I wish Camera companies would allow people to chose individual features and let people chose them what they want. Like the swappable sensors promised on some cinema cameras, IBIS or no IBIS, various codecs and their flavours, etc etc. Like people who may not have been able to afford the GH5 price at launch, could get a discount for not having 10-bit 422, IBIS etc. They could do with the dual card slot and battery advantage over other Panasonic and ILCs. 

[matthere]

Be careful what you wish for.. ? 

I can see after sale purchasing of upgrades falling very close to the use of subscriptions.

The nature of subscription based costs for features can't have gone unnoticed by manufacturers.. I wouldn't want to follow this path, and its the reason I bought the last adobe software (CS5.5/6) when I first heard of their model, and am now moving across to Resolve and other non subscription based platforms for creative work. A lot of adobe users are not happy about the upgrade path of the software they no longer own outright.

[JurijTurnsek]

I would like to know how many features don't get copied/imitated, because of pride/reluctance to show that somebody else got it right before you. I mean, every R&D department has the funds to basically have every competing body/lens in stock for the team to fiddle with. Or are they happily living in a bubble where all they have to do it so evolve their current tech?

[Jocelyn Deguise]

You're losing it, Andrew.

 

Time for a vacation.

[KnightsFan]

18 hours ago, sanveer said:

I wish Camera companies would allow people to chose individual features and let people chose them what they want. Like the swappable sensors promised on some cinema cameras, IBIS or no IBIS, various codecs and their flavours, etc etc. Like people who may not have been able to afford the GH5 price at launch, could get a discount for not having 10-bit 422, IBIS etc. They could do with the dual card slot and battery advantage over other Panasonic and ILCs.

 

17 hours ago, matthere said:

Be careful what you wish for.. ? 

I can see after sale purchasing of upgrades falling very close to the use of subscriptions.

What we really need is for a universal system of plug and play parts, like we have with PCs. Imagine if every camera were as modular as a PC! Naturally, building a camera would be a lot of research and some compatibility headaches. But just like with PCs, you could buy an off the shelf, pre-built one with software already installed.

What we need is for the Axiom project to work, not just within its own world of open hardware and software, but for their standards to become universal enough that big companies manufacture parts that work with that standard.

[IronFilm]

On 9/14/2018 at 7:34 AM, Bioskop.Inc said:

You're right, this was one of the better vids released, but mostly because he used vintage glass & the whole thing shone.

I think the bigger question here is what were BM doing in Manchester? Well, we know that the BBC has it's main hub up there now & they are one of the most rigorous testers of cameras - they have a list of cameras you can & can't use to film with. There is no wriggle room whatsoever & if it doesn't make their list you are screwed! DSLR's are not allowed, only for timelapse or extreme location shooting. It's obvious that BM have gone the ENG style route for their other cameras & if you look at the link below, you can see the report for their URSA MIni 4.6K (tier 2, oops!):

https://tech.ebu.ch/camera_reports_tech3335

The conclusion makes for interesting reading (as does the whole thing & then read the Arri one!). It would be interesting to see who they invited, my guess anyone who could get them a break in the BBC market or even the BBC themselves. Small cameras like this could be good work horses for small BBC productions, but the BBC won't use RAW or Film mode - they want good quality & quick turnaround ("fix it in post" is not a phrase to be used, ever!).

The other thing to think about is that BM seem to have forgotten the UK - last time round the Pocket's came in in 2s or 3s (Asia & US got loads). I think the tipping point for Andrew was probably that Cinema 5D got a look in & they really don't deserve to. I think most people would have preferred Andrew to see what was what, but hey, the advertising people probably don't know shit. And yes, the somewhat sloppy/unprofessional nature of some of the videos does beg the question of why they gave them to some people - they do want people to buy this thing, don't they?

Anyway, read some of those reports - very interesting & informative if you ever want to be taken seriously.

(GH5 report is on there too!)

Been reading some of their reports, at times the writer seems quite clueless. (a pencil pushing bureaucrat perhaps? Or at least someone outdated and behind the times)

For instance:
"The camera achieves HD Tier 1 because the sensor size, while smaller than the preferred 1” size, is greater than the minimum-acceptable ⅔” size."

https://tech.ebu.ch/docs/tech/tech3335_s29.pdf

And he seems to be the master of the understatement, this is what he said about the Panasonic GH5S:

"The dynamic range is about 14.6 stops in HLG, a creditable performance"

"Noise levels are acceptable." 

Yes, he regards the GH5S itself as "acceptable" in lowlight. 

And because he fucks up the math (he mistakenly believes the GH5S is upscaling its image to be able to do 4K) he says:

"The camera cannot achieve Tier 1 or 2 for UHD broadcast or cinema because the sensor resolution is inadequate. However, the performance at UHD is probably adequate for use in productions provided it is not the prime camera."

[BTM_Pix]

10 minutes ago, IronFilm said:

Been reading some of their reports, at times the writer seems quite clueless. (a pencil pushing bureaucrat perhaps? Or at least someone outdated and behind the times)

 

I used to know Alan Roberts about 15 years ago and he is far from being a pencil pushing bureaucrat to be fair.

http://www.gtc.org.uk/the-gtc-awards/gtc-awards/gtc-awards-archive/gtc-award-winners-2009.aspx

I haven't seen him in the intervening years but he came up with an interesting approach to comparing the accuracy of LED lights fairly recently.

https://www.newsshooter.com/2015/02/27/bve-2015-how-accurate-are-your-led-lights-ex-bbc-expert-alan-roberts-has-the-surprising-answers/