Magic Lantern 5D Mark III raw video and camera reliability

[Andrew Reid]

Image by Daniel Schweinerr (5D Mark III SSD attachment research)

Raw video recording on the 5D Mark III has been met with an overwhelming reception from users and a fantastic reception from most pros. Some are more guarded as they think their camera will blow up. What are the facts?

[url=http://www.eoshd.com/content/10494/magic-lantern-5d-mark-iii-raw-video-and-camera-reliability]Read the full article here[/url]

[Nitsan Simantov]

Great post Andrew!
I've been shooting a bit of raw on the 5d3 and so far it's been really painless. :)
Huge thanks for your info and help on this subject!

You mention that the 4GB limit is now bypassed - Where can I find updated versions? (Sorry i know that's a really noobish question)

 

Thanks,

Nitsan.

www.youtube.com/nitsanpictures

[taltman]

I see you are still trying to create adapter method for CF to HDD. Any luck?

[Andrew Reid]

I see you are still trying to create adapter method for CF to HDD. Any luck?

 

Mainly researching Resolve at the moment and getting the DNGs to open in it. Rudi at Slashcam has found info that the PATA to SATA adapter slows down the PATA transfer rate, so it doesn't look like that is going to work for CF card slot to SSD unfortunately.

 

However there are recently announced memory chips designed for low power consumption / small CF cards, which are based on SSD technology and offer close to the 167MB/s write speed limit of UDMA 7.

 

I think better CF cards are on the horizon. 256GB at least, and 150Mb/s write speed.

[pat1]

There is one advantage of the 5d3 over Blackmagic, and that is that you can buy the canon off the shelf.

I am sure I am not the only person to cancel a preorder due to magic lanterns recent work with raw.

[JonB]

Thnx so much Andrew for your continued work to make this all digestible and keeping my busy eyes from having to scan the ML forums every day!

 

I'm glad you mentioned the Blackmagic 4k.  As a mark ii user budgeting for a big upgrade in August, my biggest conundrum now is deciding between the 4k cam and the 5D iii.  After seeing the test footage I wanted to sell and buy a mark iii right away, but after a lot of consideration it still seems to me that $4,000 for 4k (+ different compression options & audio jacks) is the better choice.  Of course this is all speculative.  Who knows, the production cam footage could be garbage (highly doubt it, but who knows).  

 

Anyone else in the same boat?  haven't heard a lot of 4k production cam vs. 5D iii consideration....

[Andy600]

The 5d3 is amazing (as it should be considering the price) but for those on lesser bodies that use SD cards the current state of play with ML means there is a frame size restriction for continuous shooting of 720p and below due to SD buffering which is a hardware limitation. Even when upscaled the smaller files can still just about equal Canon's H.264 but there is a crop factor involved.

There is however a secret weapon for those looking to keep costs low. The good old 50d!

The 50d has basically the same internals as the 5dmkII but an 15mpix APS-C sensor. It has the same Digic 4 processor and more importantly it saves to CF cards (up to UDMA6 speeds). Raw frame sizes from the 50d are a little smaller than the 5dMkII at 1592x1062px (no crop) and  1992x1080 (1:1 crop = 5x zoom) but that is actually a good thing as, like the 5dMkII it has a slower CF controller than the 5dMkIII. With the smaller frame sizes and ability to write to CF at up to 88MB/s it can handle continuous shooting with no crop, while the 5dMkII must rely on the (work in progress) 12/10bit compression hack to get it's full uncropped, unrestricted recording.

Now the killer. The 50d is cheap! I mean VERY cheap. You can pick them up for less than the cost of a 600d and probably the 650d and 700d and they are rugged, larger, semi-pro magnesium alloy bodies with up to 6.3fps burst shooting, back focus and a host of other cool features not available on the consumer cameras and when 1592x1062 is upscaled and cropped to 1080p it is a magnitude better than H.264 for color and detail. Basically it kicks it's ass!

Raw video for the 50d is still a work in progress but it is working: http://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=5586.0 and makes the 50d a better option for raw video than the rebels. However, the 50d did not include native H.264 recording. ML remedied this to give 1080p 30p some time ago but there is no 720p/60p.

It's a balancing act but on paper (and in reality it seems) the 50d is certainly a better option for raw video shooting. Beating even the UHS-I SD enabled 650/700d, 60d and 6d.

My advice - get one while you still can ;)

[Andrew Reid]

Any samples on Vimeo from the 50D? Does it sample the sensor cleanly with no moire or aliasing?

 

Does look like a great deal.

 

Don't tell ebay sellers!!

[Julian]

Any samples on Vimeo from the 50D? Does it sample the sensor cleanly with no moire or aliasing?

 

Wouldn't couldn't on it... all of the Canons except for the 5D3 seem to have the usual moire and aliasing problems, but in raw it looks much pronounced. I've seen tests where it does look much better in 5x zoom live view  mode though.

 

I'm working on getting a 50D, just because it's so damn cheap. As soon as I get one, I'll report back!

[Andy600]

Any samples on Vimeo from the 50D? Does it sample the sensor cleanly with no moire or aliasing?

 

Does look like a great deal.

 

Don't tell ebay sellers!!

 

 

I have a 50d and the raw rec update compiled but still waiting for a CF card to arrive. I'm sure there will be some test video within the next 24 hrs. It's already recording up to 4gb without any corrupt frames. There are one or 2 shots of low light raw dng bursts but no proper test shots for raw video yet. I'll be on it as soon as my card arrives. We still have a couple of small issues that have already been fixed in the 5d3 and 600d so they'll need porting to the 50d but it's looking good :)


Aliasing and moire are a bit of an unknown factor atm but I'm pretty sure it won't look bad. 50d ML 1080p H.264 doesn't seem to suffer from moire and aliasing as much as cameras with the 18mpx sensor but again, it's another thing to test.

[Andrew Reid]

It's funny that we could have had raw video on DSLRs in 2008.

 

You have to wonder - do Canon want to make money or not!?

[Andy600]

It's funny that we could have had raw video on DSLRs in 2008.

 

You have to wonder - do Canon want to make money or not!?

LOL true! Maybe they never even thought of it. The devs would have for sure but the marketing bosses and tech support probably saw no need for raw video in a consumer stills camera. They were probably too hung up on developing H.264 for DSLRs, development of which appeared to have stopped when the first 5d2 rolled off the production line.

Card speeds and affordability were no where near what they are now so that was probably a limiting factor in their thinking too.

Wouldn't you just love to be a fly-on-the-wall at a Canon dev meeting in the last few days :unsure:

My bet is that they will HAVE TO get the C300 shooting at 4k and that we'll see a much improved codec in the consumer bodies soon... purely as a reaction to this. Either way, Canon are back in prime position thanks to someone else's work! (remind you of anything?... Reverie)
 

[Andrew Reid]

I honestly don't think their marketing bosses even know what a follow focus is.

 

BTW 50D has similar video mode as 5D Mark II, but disabled in firmware.

[peederj]

Thnx so much Andrew for your continued work to make this all digestible and keeping my busy eyes from having to scan the ML forums every day!

 

I'm glad you mentioned the Blackmagic 4k.  As a mark ii user budgeting for a big upgrade in August, my biggest conundrum now is deciding between the 4k cam and the 5D iii.  After seeing the test footage I wanted to sell and buy a mark iii right away, but after a lot of consideration it still seems to me that $4,000 for 4k (+ different compression options & audio jacks) is the better choice.  Of course this is all speculative.  Who knows, the production cam footage could be garbage (highly doubt it, but who knows).  

 

Anyone else in the same boat?  haven't heard a lot of 4k production cam vs. 5D iii consideration....

 

I think the BMD 4K cam is their only camera product worth considering, but as mentioned above, it is still vaporware and BMD haven't earned particular faith in the timeliness dept now have they. I have the C100 + Ninja 2 which fully kitted is about the same price as the other options, and I also have the 5D3 as B-cam/stills. If I were to add a camera right now it would be the FS700 + Speedbooster so I could get overcrank with my EF glass.

 

The BMD 4K cam will one hopes give the best resolution of any of these choices but frankly the C100 + Ninja 2 resolution is essentially perfect at 1080p and the thing sees in the dark. One of the benefits of 4K is the ability to stabilize in post, but the BMD camera is so heavy and clunky that flying it on a steadicam is going to require a high-budget rig be aware. But the global shutter is nice. The sensor in the BMD 4K cam has been reported to have unimpressive dynamic range even though BMD is claiming 12 stops on their website (the C100 is also 12 stops at base ISO 850 into Canon Log). So I don't know how much RAW capability will buy you with the BMD 4K in practice, I imagine due to file size that cam will almost always be run in ProRes HQ just like my Ninja 2 is.

 

In the end I think the decision comes down to a few factors:

 

1) Are you really, actually, truly serious about working in 4K resolution right now? Who will be the consumer/outlet of this product?

2) Do stills matter to you?

3) Are you willing to wait an indeterminate number of months (years?) for the BMD 4K to actually get into your hands?

4) And wait for the bugs to be worked out (e.g. dropped frames, electronic lens support, etc.)

5) Is run-n-gun and rapid post turnaround important to you or are you willing to sacrifice efficiency and flexibility for the last bit of image quality?

6) Have you really sat down and totaled the cost of ownership of each of your options, in terms of CPU/GPU power, storage/memory, rigging, filters, audio, batteries, lighting (low-light capable cameras save you money there), accessories, etc.? Make a wish list/shopping cart for each option and ogle the damage.

 

My conclusion remains C100 + Ninja 2 is the best overall option for the money right now unless you need the overcrank (FS700) or stills (5D3, 1DX/1DC, D800). I don't see 4K as a practical reality currently for this budget range (cue howls from those with far more ambition than budget). But the BMD 4K is the first camera from them that might be desirable overall when it appears. A baby Scarlet I think, and I might rather have one than a Scarlet if it works well.

[SKYLIKE]

It's funny that we could have had raw video on DSLRs in 2008.

 

You have to wonder - do Canon want to make money or not!?

 

Because Canon is a mainstream company and even now that raw thing is out .... its 0,01% of their customers who are interested in that.

[mtheory]

Peederj, the money you will save by buying BMPC instead of C100 you can just spend on a new Mac Pro workstation. :D

[Tzedekh]

We've forgotten about the Aptina-based Nikons. Now if only they could be hacked to run at the full 60p the sensor's capable of. That chip (the older one, not the newer one) is supposedly rated at about 14 stops of dynamic range, maximally. I wish CineForm would be more proactive about improving their debayering algorithm and providing solutions for recording CineForm RAW off the camera.

[Andrew Reid]

Because Canon is a mainstream company and even now that raw thing is out .... its 0,01% of their customers who are interested in that.

 

Is it really 0.01% though?

 

Stills photographers are pretty interested in raw I'd say...

[peederj]

Peederj, the money you will save by buying BMPC instead of C100 you can just spend on a new Mac Pro workstation. :D

 

Total the costs of complete systems and I'm not sure the C100 + Ninja 2 + a couple rotational drives and spare batteries ($6500) isn't in fact WAY cheaper than the BMD 4K Cam + 2 SSD's + V-mount battery system + ND filters + hot mirror IR filter + Matte Box + XLR adapters (better mic pre's also needed?) + Side and Top handles + Field Monitor for Focus Puller + EVF (OK you might want an upgraded one for the C100 too) + additional storage drives + rigging capable of pulling all that together instead of a more compact package + .... ($10,000+?)

 

We enthusiasts like Blackmagic because they're "giving us all they've got" as opposed to Canon which is conservatively dribbling out functionality that works well in the here-and-now. But it's called the bleeding edge for a reason. And some of the hemorrhaging comes in the form of needlessly spent cash...

[ManuelLopez]

"Oddly, considering it is Adobe’s own format, Premiere Cs6 does not yet work properly with DNG sequences – only supporting DNG at 8bit and giving a very poor image."

 

Premiere Pro doesn't support cinemaDNG because is not real-time playback: http://blogs.adobe.com/aftereffects/2012/09/cinemadng-in-after-effects-cs6-and-elsewhere.html