Magic Lantern 5D Mark III raw video and camera reliability

[Andy600]

Personally, I don't really care about the top-end-gear-to-price arguments. I'm VERY low-end but my 4 year old DSLR camera shoots raw 14bit video! That's all I need to say :)

[hmcindie]

 

We can agree on one thing, Sony and Canon are the most greedy of them all but at least Sony has some new sensor tehnology.

 

 

Sony sells cameras like the VG-10, VG-20 and VG-900. How can you claim a company that sells those things as "not greedy?"

 

The XF100 was a very well priced camera when it was released. It also had 50mbps 4:2:2 out of the box. How many competitors had the same features on the same price point? Let me answer that for you. Zero.

 

The Panasonic you so eagerly point to being better than the XA10 is also very new and it actually has a higher list price (XA10 = 1700dollars, AG-AC90 = 2000 dollars). It also came out this year. When did the XA10 come out? Also notice the ridiculously small sensor types on the AC90. 1/4.7". That is ridiculous. The new Canon XA20 looks to beat the Panasonic completely.

 

Why does it seem that most Canon bashers are very young teenagers who can't even write?

[leo]

Doesn't matter much wich camera is better, storytelling, composition, lightining and sound are more important than the resolution or dynamic range the camera has, sure you need a bare minimum but for sure that bare minimum is not a c100 or a 500, you can even do with a couple of gh2's as Upstream Color movie showed us.

[leo]

Sony sells cameras like the VG-10, VG-20 and VG-900. How can you claim a company that sells those things as "not greedy?"

 

The XF100 was a very well priced camera when it was released. It also had 50mbps 4:2:2 out of the box. How many competitors had the same features on the same price point? Let me answer that for you. Zero.

 

The Panasonic you so eagerly point to being better than the XA10 is also very new and it actually has a higher list price (XA10 = 1700dollars, AG-AC90 = 2000 dollars). It also came out this year. When did the XA10 come out? Also notice the ridiculously small sensor types on the AC90. 1/4.7". That is ridiculous. The new Canon XA20 looks to beat the Panasonic completely.

 

Why does it seem that most Canon bashers are very young teenagers who can't even write?

Read again, I said Sony is greedy too !

XF100 has ONE 1/3 inch sensor (low light) , it's crap for today's standards and even when it was launched, saw low light footage and it is a hopelles camera.

Then the Panasonic, it has tiny sensors but they are backside illuminated http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Back-illuminated_sensor

 

and a 1.5 f-stop lensm, and they are 3 of them.

Also, my writing is faulty because I don't speak or write english natively, if you are one of those americans this might shock you but not all of us speak english, and the earth is round, no kidding.

[jasonmillard81]

I hated the color and look of upstream...why is it so revered?

[Escapist]

Don't get me wrong, I totally agree with you on the value of the C-series. Yes, I would say without a doubt in my mind there are pricing issues. it's not for everyone, but RAW isn't either. I guess it's going to be an uphill battle as many of the claims on raw here are just borderline cult-like and I haven't seen much respectable inquiry into the subject.

 

I don't mind as it isn't personal/ad hominem...forcing everyone to defend their opinions is the most efficient education you can get. I know this is a forum for low-budget hackers and my urging people to upgrade out of that miasma will run into a lot of resistance. But it's good for you...do you think if you become a successful filmmaker you will still be using DSLRs?


As a truly great filmmaker once wrote, "That's a consumer mentality, not a filmmaking one." ;)

The Atomos and Odyssey recorders double as field monitors, so not that much of a PITA. Plus having the recorder be external lets a thousand flowers bloom in that sector...you can get any recorder you want, at any price, with whatever features and media you want. And it's quite standard at the C500 tier to have external recorders, even though some of them clip directly onto the camera (e.g. for the F55 and Epic) rather than hook up somewhere else via cable, which can be better ergonomically (as counterbalance, as a monitor, etc.). Generally higher budget productions want redundancy in digital recording which this enables at full quality. If the recorder maker is charging a lot for firmware and media, that's an opportunity for a competitor. When the camera maker fashions themselves a monopoly in RAW recording and media for their camera, as most have, that forces the customer to pay. And you're criticizing Canon for this? You have never bought a professional camera is all.



 

[Oscar M.]

. . . "There hasn’t been a single negative word from Canon (officially) about Magic Lantern. I think this is the best thing to happen to Canon DSLR video since it began with the 5D Mark II." . . . 

 

I truly believe that Canon should take a closer look at what Microsoft did with the Xbox Kinect because there are many resemblances. Basically people realized that the Xbox Kinect was a major breakthrough in technology, so why use it only for games? The researchers and the scientific community saw the potential so it wasn't long after that the Kinect was hacked. Developers started using it for robotics, virtual reality, virtual modeling, 3D mapping and on and on . . . Sales of the Kinect went trhough the roof! As far as I'm concerned, the Kinect is what made the Xbox the top game console period.

But Microsoft was smart. They seized the opportunity. How did Microsoft react? They embraced the hacking community. Now they even have a development kit for the kinect.

My point is that if Canon is any smart, they too should embrace the hacking community - and I too believe they have.

[Raymond Poulet]

Why after install ML 5d mark iii I see when I open my cf card a file rom.dat

I don't want to write something in the rom of the camera.

Thanks

[Andy600]

Why after install ML 5d mark iii I see when I open my cf card a file rom.dat

I don't want to write something in the rom of the camera.

Thanks

It's a dump from the camera. Nothing is being written into firmware. It is happening because you are likely running a development build and not a full release. You can safely delete the file from your card.

[benjolino]

I don't mind as it isn't personal/ad hominem...forcing everyone to defend their opinions is the most efficient education you can get. I know this is a forum for low-budget hackers and my urging people to upgrade out of that miasma will run into a lot of resistance. But it's good for you...do you think if you become a successful filmmaker you will still be using DSLRs?


As a truly great filmmaker once wrote, "That's a consumer mentality, not a filmmaking one." ;)

The Atomos and Odyssey recorders double as field monitors, so not that much of a PITA. Plus having the recorder be external lets a thousand flowers bloom in that sector...you can get any recorder you want, at any price, with whatever features and media you want. And it's quite standard at the C500 tier to have external recorders, even though some of them clip directly onto the camera (e.g. for the F55 and Epic) rather than hook up somewhere else via cable, which can be better ergonomically (as counterbalance, as a monitor, etc.). Generally higher budget productions want redundancy in digital recording which this enables at full quality. If the recorder maker is charging a lot for firmware and media, that's an opportunity for a competitor. When the camera maker fashions themselves a monopoly in RAW recording and media for their camera, as most have, that forces the customer to pay. And you're criticizing Canon for this? You have never bought a professional camera is all.



Your own chart tests just showed the C300 easily handing the 5D3 RAW its head on moire and resolution...and that was just with the convenience internal codec. The C-series image is superior to the 5D3 ML RAW hack in all but bit depth...but with Canon Log and one-touch custom white balance you have to be a flatly incompetent shooter to get banding on the C series image. The 12 stops of DR at base ISO (the more useful 850 on the C-series rather than the 5D3's 100) is the same.

But anyway, that's a Canon product! :D


Let's take each contestant in turn:


Blackmagic Production Camera - 4K and global shutter, free copy of RESOLVE 10

You're complaining bitterly about external recorders, which add value, but are quite happy needing external batteries, which add little. The design of this body is intended to look "Apple cool" rather than be professionally functional...there is no EVF, no XLRs, no ND's or IR filter even with a huge unused flange area, a miserable glare-filled touchscreen that doesn't articulate, we don't know whether the firmware will have absolute basics like reformatting the drive so you aren't stuck if you forgot and don't have a computer, no custom white balance for ProRes, unknown low light, no HFR/overcrank, inconsistent EF lens support, hand-held shooting at least arguably impractical, potential fan noise, SSDs required even for ProRes. We don't know all the catches with this camera, although it is the most promising on your list, because...it isn't here yet and they haven't even posted sample images. So it's not really a contestant until we can buy one in the shop and evaluate it...who knows when that will be?

5D Mark III raw recording from full frame sensor internally to CF card - show me a competitor to that!

Have to rely on hacked firmware, try explaining the loss of a $5000 shooting day based on such a cunning plan. Cumbersome workflow, poor downsampling leads to some moire and loss of resolution, have to constantly offload expensive CF cards to laptop storage, have only one CF slot whose pins can easily break rendering camera unusable, and there is no redundancy in the RAW recording, just the one CF slot. Requires all the DSLR rigging contraptions to make it work for video, no NDs, poor audio on 1/8th" jack, audio will require manual alignment with each and every video clip, limited record time depending on CF card, no HFR/overcrank, ~2MP max resolution in RAW, not all of those distinguishable. Still, it's arguably the best of your list, with great low-light, full frame look, excellent lens support, and stills. But hey it's a Canon product and they are evil money-grubbers and it was only the heroic hackers that are to thank.

FS100 and Speed Booster - incredible low light performance and flexibility with the lens mount plus 1080/60p

Poor resolution as per your charts, and the low light performance is nowhere near as good as the C100...the color all washes away. Needs ND and IR filters, poor plastic build and ergonomics (why the EVF on the top of the camera rather than the side as everyone else does?), onboard codec only AVCHD 8 bit 420 and no better than C100 internal. At least this is a camera that was designed for video, but it has been superseded by the FS700 which is a worthy candidate and if you need overcrank rather than low-light I would recommend the FS700 instead. Although...shock and horror...the FS700 will require an external recorder...No!!!...to record its full 4K resolution. Sony must be at least as evil as Canon.

Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera - ProRes internally for $999! Form factor a GF1. What's not to like?

Miserable little sensor with plenty of moire and false color artifacting because there is no OLPF and no oversampling. Just a hobbyist toy with dinky toy lenses, something fun for people to carry around. And still vaporware again. I would much rather have the Sony RX100, with its larger higher resolution sensor, 60fps, and far lower price and pocketability, and in fact I do have one.

GH3 - 1080/60p at 50Mbit, 24p at 72Mbit ALL-I - does your C100 do that for $6000? No

I like to say that color science/skin tone arguments are the last refuge of a fanboy, but in Panasonic's case, I have to say that their color science is dismal. Maybe fixable to some extent in post. At least in contrast to the Blackmagic MFT offerings all the MFT lenses will work well on these bodies, but those widdle wenses have no future, an electronically working EF adapter is expensive, and there is no hack for the GH3 yet to get a better picture out of it...you need an external recorder just like on the 5D3. But I would rather have one of these than one of the small-sensor BMD cams. The GH2 is still a great value camera for the beginner, just don't go crazy on lenses.

Not to mention STILLS on 5D3 and GH3

Yes get a 5D3 for stills! Or a D800 for better res/DR. I am not a Canon partisan, but I have settled on EF mount as my personal standard and don't regret it.

Blackmagic MFT 2.5K camera - beautifully cinematic and Speed Booster compatible

All of the problems I listed for the upcoming BMD 4K and Pocket cams rolled into one...a worthless doorstop that has been breathlessly hyped by a few online camera pimps (some of whom never disclosed that BMD had compensated them for their reviews, which is an FTC rule violation in the USA). The term "RAW" made people delirious, but this is a tiny-sensor camera streaked with rainbows of moire and miserable ergonomics, it never shipped (even to you Andrew!) and the few who got an EF version (smarting now a 4K version is supposedly about to appear) generally didn't shoot RAW with it anyway. It was good for its shaking up the industry more than its being a useful tool...I doubt the C100 + Ninja 2 would be as cheap as it is if the BMCC hadn't ever appeared. But if given one I would hand it to the intern to shoot BTS with as I think most unbiased people with a better option would. I might rather shoot with a GoPro Hero3 Black than one of these, at least that sensor is high-res and oversampled.

KineRaw mini (2K raw for $3k)

A lab experiment, apparently suffers from awful jello, but somehow got Dan Chung to champion it. Not available in the West probably for good reasons.

I am comfortable with the C100 and Ninja 2 as absolutely superior to all cheaper options currently available, on price, image quality, and overall ergonomics and workflow. The main improvements to be made on it are higher frame rates, 4K resolution, and a better built-in EVF, but I think it will remain a terrific 1080p camera for several years to come. I suggest people rent one and get comfortable with it and decide if it's worth struggling with hacks, kludges, and Rube Goldberg contraptions...or if it would be better to just focus on the composition and story and how to get the most out of each shot, knowing that the image is going to be fine at the end of the day. And as I said, price the total cost of ownership of a complete ready-to-shoot system out and you will discover Canon is really making stepping up into pro cinema accessible just like they did with the 5D2 and XL1 in the eras before this.

Thanks for hearing me out, I know it's not a popular opinion here, but it's a damn accurate one. :)

 

though i´m a 5d mark3 owner, i absolutely agree with you. for the most paid things the 5d mark raw is not a solution. even if the hack gets stable. the data rates alone make it impossible to use for documentary shooting for example. i´m really happy that this hack exists and i can play around with it but let´s see if it becomes a good way to work. i doubt it. 

i also think you all should not blame canon so much. it´s a normal strategy for companies to offer different product for different prices and costumers. for example i know somebody how works for bmw in the development. the 316, the 318 and the 320i have the same engine, they just crippled the lower end engines and sell them cheaper. it´s more efficient to produce a higher number of engines and make them less strong for lower end cars, the to produce 3 different engines. all bmw would be much more expensive if they would produce 3 different engines. even if canon  would would use the same sensor in the 600d and the mk3, i would still buy the mark3, because i want a magnesium body and not a plastic camera.

for example the canon ef 50mm 1,4 and the ef 50mm 1,2 are both very good lenses. but the 50mm 1,2 has a much better build quality and a bit better image and it costs 5 times the price. but if you work every day with this lens and earn money with it, then you maybe wanna buy it. i don´t start thinking is this really 5 times better then the 50 1,4? or is canon a greedy bitch because of this? i just think about if the things, this pro lens offers, is worth the more money for me personally. it´s easy like that.

i mean who would think the 5d mark raw is the right tool for one when he works every day with it? and i don´t mean making test shots and playing around. this is important to do and i´m really thankful that it´s been done, but if i can get a nearly the same image quality then the mark raw with a proress codec, and a good handling of the camera and the post workflow. this doesn´t sound too bad for me.

it´s really funny that everybody buys canon and complains about them at the same time... lol

[Raymond Poulet]

Thanks

[Neil Hartop]

Dies anyone know anything about these CF cards? Apparently there advertised at 1333x speed..

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/B003G4L91Q/ref=redir_mdp_mobile/280-6770792-1341862?creative=22218&creativeASIN=B003G4L91Q&linkCode=asn&ref_=asc_df_B003G4L91Q13442407&smid=A1F8YGP86NG3IP&tag=shoppingmp124617-21

[avielhod]

Dies anyone know anything about these CF cards? Apparently there advertised at 1333x speed..

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/B003G4L91Q/ref=redir_mdp_mobile/280-6770792-1341862?creative=22218&creativeASIN=B003G4L91Q&linkCode=asn&ref_=asc_df_B003G4L91Q13442407&smid=A1F8YGP86NG3IP&tag=shoppingmp124617-21

Taken from the product description: "Read speed up to 100MB/sec - write up to 40MB/sec"

 

A ton of other 1000x CF cards surpass these speeds, such as the komputerbay 64gb, lexars, delkin, toshiba, etc.

[Andrew Reid]

Seems like some very misleading marketing going on with the 1000x+ speeds. I'd ignore and seek out the write speeds. Also if a genuinely good card arrives, it won't be long before someone buys one and tries it, then shares the results - so it pays to wait.

[JHines]

Just picked up a 128GB 1000x Transcend CF card and it's consistently a good 10-12MB/s faster than my fastest 128GB 1000x Komputerbay card, which topped out around 74MB/s. I can record 1920 x 1080 with the Transcend reliably while the Komputerbay I can only go up to 1920 x 900 reliably.

[Joyce]

To enable smooth "allowed drop frame",

Can you upgrade the code, so that it will do the raw recording using

[  take 1 / drop 1] --- take 1 of 2

Frame 1  Take

Frame 2  Drop

Frame 3  Take

Frame 4  Drop

Frame 5  Take

Frame 6  Drop ... etc

[  take 1 / drop 2] --- take 1 of 3

Frame 1  Take

Frame 2  Drop

Frame 3  Drop

Frame 4  Take

Frame 5  Drop

Frame 6  Drop

Frame 7 Take

Frame 8 Drop

Frame 9 Drop

... etc

And also Take 1 Drop3 (1 of each 4)

This is to enable smooth drop frame and catch up the card writing speed,

can you make this possible for new updates? Thank you

[Joyce]

Andrew, Would you update the RAW module so that it can drop/skip the frames consistently, instead of ?

[bplet]

Joyce, go to magiclantern.fm
FYI:  Andrew Reid is not a Magic Lantern developer

[gh2sound]

Loving the fleeting footage so far, but searching to find a use for it in real world situations (non home brew)

-  beers this evening with several leading production managers points to their active avoidance of RAW capture due to budgetary restrictions (RED even) - real world - the camera  super even has no say in what he shoots on (TV),  hell I mix daily on multi million viewer channel topping progs that are 50% GoPro (2!) If we had a say accross the board from acquisition to post, everything would be lovely, sadly it's not and it's cheaply made - and budgets will only shrink as productions try and allow editors to deliver audio (a la TOWIE) to "save" £ I was a music mixer for years and went to the dark side of broadcast many years ago, but seeing the creeping devaluation of what happened there happening in broadcast in editing and shooting. As cameras and quality rises - progs are shot by 20 year old PD's with 2 days training more and more - interesting times.

[mtheory]

Loving the fleeting footage so far, but searching to find a use for it in real world situations (non home brew)

 

Broadcast television does not have a culture of fine retouching and grading, so this one is purely for filmmakers. I expect the next batch of Sundance films to look better, a LOT better with the help of this RAW hack alone as filmmakers will not fail to take advantage of such a powerful workflow which was out of their reach for DECADES!