Camcorder for Narrative Filmmaking

[mercer]

I am shooting a short film this winter that is a mixture of regular narrative and newsreel footage. I was planning on using the FZ2500 because I have owned the camera twice, am quite familiar with it, and know what to expect out of it. 

But out of curiosity this morning I had a look at proper camcorders and was very surprised by the specs and the video quality of the 1” sensor higher end ($1500-$3000) options.

Martin Wallgren has shot a few pieces with the Panasonic X1...

Also I know Philip Bloom used a Sony NEX camcorder for his recent Skiathos cat video...

I have more to say about this, but I have to run out and do some errands, so I’ll start this conversation with... Does anyone use camcorders for narratives?

[webrunner5]

31 minutes ago, mercer said:

Also I know Philip Bloom used a Sony NEX camcorder for his recent Skiathos cat video...

I have more to say about this, but I have to run out and do some errands, so I’ll start this conversation with... Does anyone use camcorders for narratives?

I did see he has a Sony HXR-NX80 camcorder as being used in his piece. Cameras he used are in this article. But I don't think I have seen much better footage from anything that is just pick up and go than the Panasonic DVX200 does. Might be Only 8bit, but it is some damn good 8 bit. But about the cheapest I have seen one is around 2700 bucks used.

http://philipbloom.net/blog/skiathos/

 

[mercer]

Yeah they aren’t cheap but for an all in one solution. No lenses, no external recorders, built in NDs, camcorder AF and stabilization... hmm... I don’t know. I must admit, it sounds a little appealing to me. 

[BTM_Pix]

Those Sony ones have a lot going for them.

The consumer version is the AX700 and gives you the same stuff minus the XLRs (though there is a shoe mount adapter to add them) if you want to save quitw a few hundred dollars.

Can't beat it for stealth either.

[kye]

I am using the 1" XC10 with Rode video mic pro plus and apart from the relatively deep DoF and slower AF it is a great setup and just gets out of the way.

If you can get the aesthetic you want from this kind of setup then go for it.

Here's a BTS from the other day of me doing a horizontal sliding shot in Pompeii with the aforementioned setup.

[Mattias Burling]

I miss my XC-10. Might buy one again if my X-H1 doesn't work out as a handheld/scenery b-cam.

(just wished the 120p was a little cleaner.)

[mercer]

1 hour ago, BTM_Pix said:

Those Sony ones have a lot going for them.

The consumer version is the AX700 and gives you the same stuff minus the XLRs (though there is a shoe mount adapter to add them) if you want to save quitw a few hundred dollars.

Can't beat it for stealth either.

Yes I was looking at them as well. But the Panasonic camcorders are the most appealing to me. Maybe it’s a leftover from my desire to make indie films with a P2 DVX True 24p camcorder back in the early 2000s but it also stems from my not so secret love of the FZ2500. The 1” camcorders seem like a cinema camera version of that camera.

This next bit isn’t a direct reply to your statement as much as it is my own thoughts going forward with filmmaking...

I have my 5D3 and I LOVE shooting ML Raw with it. And I will own that and shoot with it until it breaks in my hand but I will be the first to admit that on occasion it can be a slow process and gets annoying. I am so pleased with the image, I am more than willing to deal with the process and the storage. 

But...

Since, I am a writer first, my whole point in getting into filmmaking was to tell my stories. In the process, I have become obsessed with the process even if I am not a natural cinematographer.

With my desire to work on more films and longer ones, mixed with my style of run and gun, one man band filmmaking, having a second interchangeable lens camera system, sounds like an expensive and time consuming endeavor for someone who is mostly interested in telling stories first and cinematography second or third and audio tenth.

An all in one system that a camcorder offers, with its built in lens and XLR inputs seems like it could be a good option. 

In a few months, I will have a little excess money to put towards some productions and I have some bold, big, Hail Mary plans and a camcorder could get me to the end credits a lot quicker and easier without too much of a loss in image quality.

So right now I am just exploring all of my options before I make that investment, or decide to stay completely with ML Raw, so I was curious what the good people of EOSHD had to say. 

@kye and @Mattias Burling as you both may remember, I also had the XC10 and really loved the camera. It was just small enough to be inconspicuous with a great FHD image. I only shot in 4K once as a test. I liked it but I liked the 1080p just as much, so I rolled with that most of the time. I noticed this morning that it is selling at B&H for around $1300, so I assume that could be an option as well.

I admittedly have a gear and lens fetish. I love the feel of vintage lenses. The manual focus rings are so smooth and the optics have such character and offer that shallow depth of field I have loved ever since my t2i days but I started making hobby short films back in 2004 with a Canon ZR65... or something... and I remember enjoying the process a little more back then. Or maybe it’s just nostalgia. I don’t know, there was something about grabbing the camera and getting the shot. It felt like an extension of my arm. And it had everything I needed right inside of a small handheld form factor.

[BTM_Pix]

38 minutes ago, mercer said:

In a few months, I will have a little excess money to put towards some productions and I have some bold, big, Hail Mary plans and a camcorder could get me to the end credits a lot quicker and easier without too much of a loss in image quality.

So right now I am just exploring all of my options before I make that investment, or decide to stay completely with ML Raw, so I was curious what the good people of EOSHD had to say. 

At the risk of sounding trite, a finished film shot on a camcorder is always going to be better than an unfinished one shot on a hybrid with a ton of vintage lenses so if thats what it takes to get you to the finish line then its an obvious choice.

 

[mercer]

9 minutes ago, BTM_Pix said:

At the risk of sounding trite, a finished film shot on a camcorder is always going to be better than an unfinished one shot on a hybrid with a ton of vintage lenses so if thats what it takes to get you to the finish line then its an obvious choice.

 

Not trite at all and a great point. I guess I’m wondering from an image quality perspective, will a camcorder hinder anything if I make a good film. Those samples I’ve posted look pretty, dare I say, cinematic, but I think I have a more forgiving eye than most people around here.

As an FZ2500 owner, I was very interested in your thoughts on this BTM, so any thoughts you have... please throw my way. 

[Bioskop.Inc]

Nothing wrong with your idea, back in the day we used to borrow 2 or 3 Sony Z1s from work & shoot shorts etc... Not the best quality, but they were broadcast approved & had all you needed all in one handy package. Just remember that Festen was filmed using a Sony Handycam & it is still one of the best films from the 90s! As long as your story is good, it doesn't matter what you shoot it on. Just shoot something....

I'm editing up a short ATM which I shot a few years ago on my 60D - I had shelved it as I decided the original idea wasn't that great & work got in the way. I've come back to it now, with loads of ideas & I don't care what I shot it on - it looks absolutely fabulous considering what people say about how crap the 60D was for filming. I'm also using this film as a way of learning Resolve, finally!

[mercer]

@Bioskop.Inc I started screenwriting and acting in the 90s, so I have a bit of sentimentality for that aesthetic and form factor. To be honest, I went through my closet yesterday looking for something unrelated to filmmaking and it took me an hour to find it once I moved lenses and adapters and boxes of lenses and boxes of adapters. Quite frankly, I’m tired of all of the paraphernalia involved with filmmaking. A camcorder with a built in lens and Nd filters, with XLR inputs with the camcorder form factor just sounds really appealing to me right now... especially for a project idea I have been working on. I have a lens fetish, I love the tactile feel and the ability to slide into focus through peaking and I have that in spades with my 5D, but I really miss just grabbing a camera and getting the shot. I’ll still make short films in ML Raw, I love the image too much and I felt it has made me a more considerate filmmaker, but if I want a second camera (I do) I think I just want to keep it simple and I’m willing to pay for that simplicity. 

But I reserve the right to completely change my mind tomorrow and do a complete 180...

[BTM_Pix]

2 minutes ago, mercer said:

As an FZ2500 owner, I was very interested in your thoughts on this BTM, so any thoughts you have... please throw my way. 

Its a complete, self contained, shot grabber that you can put in a small bag and just go out and work with.

Its probably the closest you can get to a true hybrid camera in the sense that having to quickly switch in the same light from shooting video to stills obviously not only requires deploying ND but also switching off the IBIS as it becomes counter-productive when shooting at higher shutter speeds. The FZ2500 can do this because its obviously got integral ND but crucially because its on a physical switch and you can map the IBIS to a physical switch so you can switch from true video setup to stills setup almost instantly and without taking your eye off the viewfinder.

Trying to do that on any other camera just isn't happening because they are all stills cameras first with video functions built in.

The compromise though is that its form factor is very much camera rather than camcorder but with it having a fold out screen, then you are only a Hoodman/Loupe and a cheap shoulder mount away from having that option but with the choice to revert to small form factor when required.

Even buying the LOG license and adding the Ninja V is still going to keep you around $1500 for the package and with the FZ2500 having a 10 bit 4:2:2 output you are getting a fair amount of bang for your buck without going over the top form factor or rigging wise.

If you decide its not cutting it and get shut of the FZ2500 then you'd still have the Ninja V to upgrade whatever the replacement camera was so its a low risk strategy.

Here are a couple of comparison videos between the FZ2500 and UX180 (which is the 'pro' version of the HC-X1). 

The first is about the form factor and the second is about the image.

 

[mercer]

@BTM_Pix you make some great points in favor of the FZ2500 and side by side, I preferred the FZ2500 image over the UX180. But I would definitely have set up both cameras differently but since they are equally set up in that video, it was definitely a useful comparison. I still have a little more thinking to do here it seems.

[IronFilm]

6 hours ago, mercer said:

But out of curiosity this morning I had a look at proper camcorders and was very surprised by the specs and the video quality of the 1” sensor higher end ($1500-$3000) options.

 

Still a hell of a lot more expensive than a FZ2500 is though

[newfoundmass]

We get too caught up on what we're shooting with these days. 28 Days Later is one of my favorite movies ever. Would it really have been any better if it was shot on a cinema camera instead of mini DV cameras? No. 

Some of my favorite stuff was shot on Sony handycams straight out of camera. Would I use one to shoot something today? Sure, why not!? Do I like what ILC cameras allow me to do now? Yes but they aren't a necessity!

[IronFilm]

4 hours ago, BTM_Pix said:

The consumer version is the AX700 and gives you the same stuff minus the XLRs (though there is a shoe mount adapter to add them) if you want to save quitw a few hundred dollars.

 

Oh! I didn't know the Sony FDR-AX100 got updated to the newer Sony FDR-AX700

Other than 100 Mb/s XAVC S what other benefits are there? 

Ohhhh... and lots more slow motion modes!

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/compare/Sony_FDR-AX700_4K_Camcorder_vs_Sony_FDR-AX100E_4K_Ultra_HD_Camcorder_PAL/BHitems/1362622-REG_1064108-REG

 

[mercer]

7 minutes ago, IronFilm said:

Still a hell of a lot more expensive than a FZ2500 is though

Yup great point, I just realized that other than XLRs and the smaller MP sensor, I really wouldn’t be getting a lot more even with the X1... and at that price I may as well spend a little more and go with the larger sensor DVX200...

 

[IronFilm]

3 minutes ago, mercer said:

Yup great point, I just realized that other than XLRs and the smaller MP sensor, I really wouldn’t be getting a lot more even with the X1... and at that price I may as well spend a little more and go with the larger sensor DVX200...

Or just do one step better and get the GH5! ?

 

[BTM_Pix]

44 minutes ago, IronFilm said:

Oh! I didn't know the Sony FDR-AX100 got updated to the newer Sony FDR-AX700

Other than 100 Mb/s XAVC S what other benefits are there? 
 

HLG, SLOG3 and improved AF are the key ones.

[mercer]

55 minutes ago, newfoundmass said:

We get too caught up on what we're shooting with these days. 28 Days Later is one of my favorite movies ever. Would it really have been any better if it was shot on a cinema camera instead of mini DV cameras? No. 

Some of my favorite stuff was shot on Sony handycams straight out of camera. Would I use one to shoot something today? Sure, why not!? Do I like what ILC cameras allow me to do now? Yes but they aren't a necessity!

Great points, I want to discuss further but I am beat and need to close my eyes for a little while.