Camcorder for Narrative Filmmaking

[mercer]

40 minutes ago, jpfilmz said:

What about the XC15?

Yeah as @Yurolov said, with the optional XLR inputs, the XC15 is definitely an option but for only $500 more, I think I’d rather have the DPAF, 4K 60p, form factor/top handle of the XF400. 

Like all cameras, none of the camcorders are perfect either. The Sony Z90 has some impressive specs and is very compact with 10bit 1080p internal with all of the Cine profiles and PDAF. The Panasonic UX-90 has a nice thick image with CineLikeD and I am fairly familiar with the FZ2500, so I know what to expect from the camera. 

I’m still a month or two away from a purchase, so I am going to hit the keyboard and see what type of scripts I can write that would benefit from a camcorder as I continue to research them. I may even rent the Z90 and the XF400 to see if I like them. 

[bsalisbury]

20 hours ago, mercer said:

Thanks for posting this. I must say, the Sony camcorders do look nice and seem feature packed with sLog and PDAF. The NX variant does add the XLRs and top handle for only a little more, though. Do you record internal audio with the AX700?

Sorry I missed this.  I use my Shure VP83F shotgun microphone and occasionally a Rode Filmmaker Wireless lav.  No issues, but since I have never used XLR microphones don't know how much I might be missing out on.  For my purposes though, these microphones work very well with the AX700.

[Mako Sports]

4 hours ago, mercer said:

I may even rent the Z90 and the XF400 to see if I like them. 

Carl did a comparison of the 2 a little while back also.

[BTM_Pix]

8 hours ago, IronFilm said:

What are our guesses for the price of the 25-100mm T2.9?

I'm guessing (hoping? Praying?) $2K

All of their lenses have been sub $1K (so to expect the 24-100mm to be double their most expensive one isn't too unreasonable??):

 

I don't think they are unreasonable assumptions but I'm a bit curious about why they didn't announce the price or even ball park it.

A conspiracy theorist might suggest that they obviously know how much it's going to cost as its not their first rodeo ehen it comes to making lenses but that they are gauging reactions and guesstimates in forums like this to see how much of a cinema lens tax they can get away with adding to it

[IronFilm]

1 hour ago, BTM_Pix said:

I don't think they are unreasonable assumptions but I'm a bit curious about why they didn't announce the price or even ball park it.

 

I've noticed a few times this happening already, announcing but without prices. 
 

1 hour ago, BTM_Pix said:

 A conspiracy theorist might suggest that they obviously know how much it's going to cost as its not their first rodeo ehen it comes to making lenses but that they are gauging reactions and guesstimates in forums like this to see how much of a cinema lens tax they can get away with adding to it

I'll deliberately mess with this plan then ?

I HOPE IT IS UNDER THREE HUNDRED DOLLARS!!

AS I WOULD NEVER EVER PAY MORE THAN FIVE HUNDRED DOLLARS FOR A LENS LIKE THIS IS WHICH IS SLOWER THAN T2.8 AND ISN'T WIDER THAN 24mm!!!! 

[BTM_Pix]

9 hours ago, mercer said:

Cool feature. How much of the 12mm or 14mm micro4/3 zooms are vignetted in S35mm mode?

Its lens dependent (and there can also potentially be a few nasties in terms of edge performance that you need to watch out for as well as vignetting) but you can push most of them further than you think.

I don't have that particular Olympus lens to illustrate it but I do have the cheap and cheerful 12-32mm wide zoom that I've just knocked up a quick (and very rough ) illustration of how the VSM typically works for you.  

You can set the scaling to whatever you want (with 100% being S35) and its preset for MFT lenses is 80% but this is pretty conservative.

As you can see, setting it to 80% and using the same lens on a real MFT camera (the GX80 in this case) gives you the same FOV but note how much additional area outside of this 80% is available.

So in this case with this particular lens we can get quite cheeky and set the VSM to 100% and get a bonus increase on the wide end so our 12mm is more like a 10mm.

With different lenses you might have to tweak this to say 90 or 95 but its still a nifty trick to have and its another plus against something like an FZ2500 which isn't as wide on the wide end as you might ideally want.

 

10 minutes ago, IronFilm said:

I've noticed a few times this happening already, announcing but without prices. 
 

I'll deliberately mess with this plan then ?

I HOPE IT IS UNDER THREE HUNDRED DOLLARS!!

AS I WOULD NEVER EVER PAY MORE THAN FIVE HUNDRED DOLLARS FOR A LENS LIKE THIS IS WHICH IS SLOWER THAN T2.8 AND ISN'T WIDER THAN 24mm!!!! 

I THINK YOU'VE GONE IN A BIT HIGH THERE MR. ROCKERFELLER

NO WAY IS IT WORTH MORE THAN TWO HUNDRED

;)

[Jadesroom]

12 hours ago, mercer said:

How do you like the combo? The DVX looks amazing, with the bigger sensor, but may be a touch more than I want to spend... do you shoot a lot of narratives with the combo and if so, what are your thoughts?

I’m pretty familiar with the FZ2500. After buying and selling two of them, I always wish I had kept it... just something unique about that camera... it’s probably the 1080p quality and the push button slow motion. Yup that’s it.

 

I really like the combo.  I used to use an A7sii with a Sony F4.0 28-135mm PZ lens and an XLR-K2M as my main camera and an A6500 as my primary combo. I still use the A7sii for low light. But I wanted something more traditional for a main camera. I thought about getting a Sony Z90 or a Z150, and I've always liked Panasonic. Hence, my decision to purchase the DVX200 and to move toward Panasonic cameras.  I like the convience and colors of an FZ2500.  I may purchase a GH4, GH5, or GH5s in the near future; however, I'm waiting to see what the camera announcement on the 25th has to offer.  My biggest complaints about the DVX200 are the LCD sucks outdoors and the internal Vlog is unusable because of banding.

 

[mercer]

30 minutes ago, Jadesroom said:

I really like the combo.  I used to use an A7sii with a Sony F4.0 28-135mm PZ lens and an XLR-K2M as my main camera and an A6500 as my primary combo. I still use the A7sii for low light. But I wanted something more traditional for a main camera. I thought about getting a Sony Z90 or a Z150, and I've always liked Panasonic. Hence, my decision to purchase the DVX200 and to move toward Panasonic cameras.  I like the convience and colors of an FZ2500.  I may purchase a GH4, GH5, or GH5s in the near future; however, I'm waiting to see what the camera announcement on the 25th has to offer.  My biggest complaints about the DVX200 are the LCD sucks outdoors and the internal Vlog is unusable because of banding.

 

Do you shoot narratives with that combo? I am the one weirdo not worried about the FF Panasonic and hoping they announce an FZ5000 or FZ5. It’s been 2 years since the FZ2500 was announced and 2 years before that the FZ1000 came out. As the FZ2500 gave us a lot of the video functions from the GH4, I’m hoping an update will give us those GH5 features. I’ll happily stop looking and buy that camera at release.

BTW, last year I was messing around with an RX10ii. I wanted to try using sLog2 but due to banding, it was frowned upon, so I gave monochrome color a go and the banding disappeared... it may work for vLog in the DVX as well if you like B&W.

[Jadesroom]

54 minutes ago, mercer said:

Do you shoot narratives with that combo? I am the one weirdo not worried about the FF Panasonic and hoping they announce an FZ5000 or FZ5. It’s been 2 years since the FZ2500 was announced and 2 years before that the FZ1000 came out. As the FZ2500 gave us a lot of the video functions from the GH4, I’m hoping an update will give us those GH5 features. I’ll happily stop looking and buy that camera at release.

 

I shoot primarily real estate profiles and events with the combo.  If timing follows past patterns, then an FZ2500 update should be announced within the next two months or so. I'd probably go for the FZ2500 update as well, depending on the FF's price and lens availability.

[BTM_Pix]

13 hours ago, Mattias Burling said:

And on for example EF glass the zoom rocker can control the focus. Very nifty.

 

13 hours ago, mercer said:

That’s pretty cool!

And if you add a cheap £20 LANC zoom controller like this one you can have focus control on the camera zoom rocker and still have zoom control (servo or Prime Zoom) on this.

 

[mercer]

9 hours ago, Mako Sports said:

Carl did a comparison of the 2 a little while back also.

Thanks, that was helpful. If I do go this route, I am leaning toward the Sony, out of those two, due to the 10bit 1080p. How is the 10bit?

@BTM_Pix thanks a lot for that test!!! I’m pleased to see that not much is lost on the wide end... even though anything over 20mm (FF FOV equivalent) is the widest I’d ever use anyway. I must admit that the LS300 is growing on me.

I’ve pretty much narrowed my 1” camcorder options down to a few. Now I need to check out the LS300 more thoroughly. I checked the specs a while ago and if I remember correctly it was on the bigger side? I believe it’s about 13-14” long? It isn’t a dealbreaker but the more compact the better.

[BTM_Pix]

20 minutes ago, mercer said:

 

@BTM_Pix thanks a lot for that test!!! I’m pleased to see that not much is lost on the wide end... even though anything over 20mm (FF FOV equivalent) is the widest I’d ever use anyway. I must admit that the LS300 is growing on me.

No, you actually gain on the wide end.

If you look at the picture of it side by side with the GX80, the portion inside the rectangle is what you would get if you used at the MFT setting so it is exactly the same FOV as the GX80. 

But because that particular MFT lens covers a much wider area than the 80% of S35 that is usually the case you can set it to 100% of S35 to be able to use the rest of the image, hence the 12mm is now a 10mm.

Being able to select the scale mapping is like having a lossless wide angle adapter built in when you need it and the Prime Zoom function is like having a lossless telephoto adapter built in when you need it as well.

20 minutes ago, mercer said:

I’ve pretty much narrowed my 1” camcorder options down to a few. Now I need to check out the LS300 more thoroughly. I checked the specs a while ago and if I remember correctly it was on the bigger side? I believe it’s about 13-14” long? It isn’t a dealbreaker but the more compact the better.

I've done this for you with the SL and FZ2500 to see it in context with a couple of other cameras. 

It won't get smaller than that (top handle removed here) but obviously deepening on what you attach to it then it can get much bigger ! 

 

[mercer]

2 hours ago, BTM_Pix said:

No, you actually gain on the wide end.

If you look at the picture of it side by side with the GX80, the portion inside the rectangle is what you would get if you used at the MFT setting so it is exactly the same FOV as the GX80. 

But because that particular MFT lens covers a much wider area than the 80% of S35 that is usually the case you can set it to 100% of S35 to be able to use the rest of the image, hence the 12mm is now a 10mm.

Being able to select the scale mapping is like having a lossless wide angle adapter built in when you need it and the Prime Zoom function is like having a lossless telephoto adapter built in when you need it as well.

I've done this for you with the SL and FZ2500 to see it in context with a couple of other cameras. 

It won't get smaller than that (top handle removed here) but obviously deepening on what you attach to it then it can get much bigger ! 

 

Oh yeah. That’s what I meant, I just worded it weirdly.

That’s not too big, I guess. 

Thanks. 

[kaylee]

one thing i learned making my short is that i wouldve like a MUCH wider angle than 24mm on full frame

i did NOT anticipate that lol

[kye]

5 hours ago, kaylee said:

one thing i learned making my short is that i wouldve like a MUCH wider angle than 24mm on full frame

i did NOT anticipate that lol

What kind of shots did you want the wide angle for?

I sometimes miss a wide angle, and I'm curious to know when others do too

[kaylee]

32 minutes ago, kye said:

What kind of shots did you want the wide angle for?

just shots where i envisioned what i wanted in the frame, and i was picturing a wide angle, and i thought the wide end of my 24-105 was wide enough, but it wasnt exactly what i had in mind as far as the shots in a very small room

thats the answer to your question: a very small room that is supposed to feel small and claustrophobic, but having a wider angle for an establishing shot wouldve been nice. mind you this is a real location – if there was no fourth wall it wouldnt be a problem ?

[mercer]

22 hours ago, Jadesroom said:

I shoot primarily real estate profiles and events with the combo.  If timing follows past patterns, then an FZ2500 update should be announced within the next two months or so. I'd probably go for the FZ2500 update as well, depending on the FF's price and lens availability.

I wonder if the DVX will get an update at NAB. It’s been a few years since Panasonic has updates any of their camcorder line, so there could be some great updates coming soon. I’m half tempted to pick up another FZ2500 soon and wait to see what happens at NAB.

With JVC recently licensing ProRes for an upcoming camera, it’s quite possible the LS300 could get another FW update with ProRes, or a Mark II model... 

[Jonesy Jones]

On 9/24/2018 at 7:49 AM, Jadesroom said:

I shoot primarily real estate profiles and events with the combo.  If timing follows past patterns, then an FZ2500 update should be announced within the next two months or so. I'd probably go for the FZ2500 update as well, depending on the FF's price and lens availability.

Sorry @mercer for the brief off topic question, but I am likely going to produce some real estate videos in the near future and am looking to do some research on well crafted real estate videos. @Jadesroom could you point me in the direction of some good ones?

[kye]

3 hours ago, kaylee said:

thats the answer to your question: a very small room that is supposed to feel small and claustrophobic, but having a wider angle for an establishing shot wouldve been nice. mind you this is a real location – if there was no fourth wall it wouldnt be a problem ?

I get that sometimes. I also get it when you're trying to get something really big in frame too. Yesterday I was at some Greek ruins and checked the framing and had to walk back, three times(!) before it fit into the wide end of the XC10 24-240mm zoom.

I'd suggest that it's any time you're working in a location where you struggle for space is a potential wide angle lens situation.

[BTM_Pix]

10 hours ago, kaylee said:

one thing i learned making my short is that i wouldve like a MUCH wider angle than 24mm on full frame

i did NOT anticipate that lol

You might want to consider using a viewfinder app for your phone like the Cadrage one.

It simulates the FOV you will get from all different formats and lenses so you can quickly get a preview of what you are going to get before you set all your real gear up.

It works with the common wide angle adapters on the phone as well to simulate much wider lenses.

It might be useful in your situation as well @kye as I know you like to keep stealthy so would delay the moment at which you get your real camera out of the bag in the situation you described above

https://www.cadrage.at