Photokina 2018 Part 1: Panasonic S1 and S1R full frame 4K/60p and Fujifilm GFX 100MP 4K Medium Format. WOW!

[Emanuel]

9 minutes ago, Dan Sherman said:

AF in video is more demanding, so it will always lag behind stills. encoding/processing video takes up a lot of cpu power leaving less for the AF engine.

So, some other approach oblige, isn't it? Canon, Sony, Fuji have done it. When Panny...?!

@webrunner5@jonpais Out of likes today.

[Dan Sherman]

3 minutes ago, Emanuel said:

So, some other approach oblige, isn't it? Canon, Sony, Fuji have done it. When Panny...?!

 

 

I don't know, i don't work for them. If you don't like what they have, then don't but their products, it's as simple as that.

 

 

[Emanuel]

2 minutes ago, Dan Sherman said:

 

I don't know, i don't work for them. If you don't like what they have, then don't but their products, it's as simple as that.

 

 

No, this can work for you, perhaps. But no every people enter in 'my dick is bigger than yours' argument or sorta alike : )

I am their client for three decades now. Without mention to have invested my OWN money and my partners' resources in their glass lineup. I am demanding more care on my own needs from them. As simple as that.

Funny coincidence BTW:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panny

https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Panny

: -)

[Dan Sherman]

3 minutes ago, Emanuel said:

I am their client for three decades now. Without mention to have invested my OWN money and my partners' resources in their glass lineup. I am demanding more care on my own needs from them. As simple as that.

Sounds like entitlement to me!

[sanveer]

I see it like this. Some M43 users, and many Full Frame Freaks rant some sh!t about M43 cameras lacking the full frame look, and some rubbish about why Full Frame is better without being able to articulate why exactly. I personally think all full frame sensors and lenses have a noticeable amount of vignetting, and the majority of Full Frame videos, especially those before PDAF were terribly out of focus (I believe entire seasons of food and travel shows, shots have been shot of focus). After PDAF, things have improved substantially, and Canon and Sony seem to be really hitting it out of the park with their versions of it. 

Panasonic could have created the FF for 3 major reasons:

1. To create the promised 8k sensor in their Varicam (and EVA 2?), which would require a FF or larger sized sensor.

2. It was already making cameras for Leica since 2014 (released in 2015), so it has more than enough experience in that field. Also Leica's pricing ensured that it was a niche product and unable to challenge Canon, Nikon and Sony. Plus until Now (before the Mirrorless party was gate-crashed by Canon and Nikon), nobody had 10-bit video in a Full Frame Camera (internally or externally). With video features alone, Panasonic could have affected sales of everyone else. Add 14-bit RAW, good autofocus and a good line-up of lenses, and Panasonic could capture a large part of the market. 

3. The FF move was, in many ways, to protect the M43 market and ensure that people have 2 distinct systems to chose from, instead of constantly whining about not having a larger sensor and a certain kind of film look.

 

The more I read the press releases and see all the interviews of Panasonic personnel online, the more I am certain that this is going to have a way better screen and EVF, have a new codec (Blackmagic RAW 12:1) or much improved codec, way better low light, much faster burst speeds, have a leaf shuttwr or a hybrid shutter of some sort, and PDAF hidden under an alias name (AI/ Neural Engine or some other rubbish name). 

Btw BOTH Nikon and Canon have shameless kept Only a single SD Card Slow in their Mirrorless Full Frame Cameras. That may be the biggest reason not to get either for serious professional work. In many ways, that is as important as PDAF. Maybe more.

I hope they fix that articulation on the screen, and PDAF. Those two seem to the only issues right now. 

[Emanuel]

3 minutes ago, Dan Sherman said:

Sounds like entitlement to me!

I believe 32 years after my 1st Panny purchase followed by others to count each decade after, must have some care by these suppliers. I just don't think they're going in the right direction on that (AF) one.

Still customer, so demanding. I'm not even the typical AF shooter guy, go figure! : ) Others do, gimbals time.

If not, I simply would not care about at all.

[maxmizer]

1 hour ago, sanveer said:

I hope they fix that articulation on the screen, and PDAF. Those two seem to the only issues right now. 

Also the price.

[BTM_Pix]

There shouldn't really be too much of a mystery about the 24mp version of the Panasonic .

If you can't wait until next Spring to see what it can do there are loads of example images from it here 

https://www.flickr.com/groups/slleica/

[Nodnarb]

5 hours ago, ajay said:

I find this whole CDAF vs PDAF debate rather irritating. Tony Northrup yesterday already was trashing S1/S1R because of Panasonic's perseverance of using CDAF in the new FF system. Really? No one has had hands-on with a production model yet (and won't for some time) and already is claiming that it will have autofocus issues.

The problem is that everyone watches these reviewers on Youtube and repeat on the forums what is the perceived downfalls of a camera before the camera has ever been tested.

Obviously Panasonic has faith in their autofocus system. As others have stated, as faster processors come into play it will come to a point in which autofocus is so fast you won't be able to tell who is using what system to obtain focus. Who cares if it's CDAF or PDAF as long as it works?

 

When the GH4 launched in 2014, Panasonic "obviously" had faith in their autofocus system. Yet when it came to video, the CDAF looked pretty bad compared to the PDAF on the 70D, NX1, and a6000. The GH4 was a fantastic camera, but it was clear back then that Panasonic needed to include PDAF if they wanted to achieve good video autofocus. So in 2017 when the GH5 was realeased, a lot of people were disappointed that PDAF was again missing from the specs. Panasonic "obviously" had faith in their autofocus system, but real world usage found the GH5's "Advanced CDAF" was still not as good as the PDAF in some 3 year old cameras, much less some of the latest models from other manufacturers.

Now in 2018 with Canon, Nikon, Sony and Fuji all producing cams with really good video autofocus using PDAF, I think it's easy to see why critics are disappointed that PDAF will again be missing from Panasonic's next generation of cameras come 2019.

[sanveer]

1 hour ago, maxmizer said:

Also the price.

I guess a Huge Part of the GH5's 2k asking price was 10-bit INTERNAL (with practically Limitless Recording Capabilities), Class Leading Weather Sealing and Superb IBIS.

[eyesuncloudedphoto]

1 hour ago, BTM_Pix said:

There shouldn't really be too much of a mystery about the 24mp version of the Panasonic .

If you can't wait until next Spring to see what it can do there are loads of example images from it here 

https://www.flickr.com/groups/slleica/

At this point, I think it's much safer to deduce that the sensor is a Sony one and not a TowerJazz like in the SL. 

This might be an erroneous assertion but everything points to the same base sensors as the ones in the Nikon Z6/Z7. Not there should be huge difference with the SL sensor, with the same lenses, but just sayin'

[kye]

4 hours ago, Dan Sherman said:

I would't say its bad, its just not what a lot of people want. I mean some of the tests people do are retarded, jumping completely in and out of frame, or moving towards or away from the  camera quickly. Then in real world use, they just sit in front of it vlog style yet still complain because their extreme tests didn't work.

I agree that some tests are far fetched and not useful.

What is useful is seeing how many out of focus shots there are in real videos that aren't about the camera's AF.

Kai Wong had regular occurrences of out of focus shots from his GH5 where he's obviously shot the video and only discovered the focus problem in editing when it's too late to re-shoot.

I've seen him sitting in the middle of the frame talking to camera and it just focuses from him to the background and just stays there for 5 seconds or more completely happy with itself. I think it got better after the update but still wasn't perfect, and this is potentially the easiest composition in the world to focus on.

It might be the technology of the future, but it's not the technology of the present unfortunately.

[BTM_Pix]

2 hours ago, eyesuncloudedphoto said:

At this point, I think it's much safer to deduce that the sensor is a Sony one and not a TowerJazz like in the SL. 

This might be an erroneous assertion but everything points to the same base sensors as the ones in the Nikon Z6/Z7. Not there should be huge difference with the SL sensor, with the same lenses, but just sayin'

Sorry, I left the wink emoji off that !

 

[EspenB]

6 hours ago, sanveer said:

Panasonic could have created the FF for 3 major reasons:

Actually it's only one reason: More profit. Especially on lenses. Look at what Leica L-lenses sell for: 5000 to 6000 USD. Panasonic will not be able to undercut Leicas gross margin with too cheap options. Neither will Sigma which will probably be forced into making mostly big and heavy primes.

 

[Borbarad]

You know that his channel ist mostly satire, or???

 

B

[EspenB]

22 minutes ago, Borbarad said:

You know that his channel ist mostly satire, or???

 

B

Well, give me a reason why Panasonic Lumix S lenses will not be expensive.. After all it's lenses which has the most profit.

Also, if not reasonable succsesfull in a few years the Lumix range might be as short lived as Samsung NX. That is the most prominent danger of investing in one of these mirrorless systems. The market will probably not be big enough to support them all long time.

Also Panasonic is rumoured to not be happy about the GH5S and G9 sales. And there is no GH6 in sight despite the model being two years now. GH5 might continue for another 12-18 months. With some small firmware adjustments. This is signs of a stagnating market. There will be very few new bodies and there will be longer and longer between the releases.

[Shield3]

On 9/25/2018 at 10:35 AM, Andrew Reid said:

 The Panasonic S1 and S1R are probably why! For video they beat every full frame camera past, present and future!
 

This thread has it all - not released yet; but "beat every full frame camera ever, past present and future" (despite all the lack of info we have right now) to "camera sucks".  Only on EOSHD can you get such a wide range of speculation!

The crop monkey is not pleased.

 

[sanveer]

7 hours ago, EspenB said:

Actually it's only one reason: More profit. Especially on lenses. Look at what Leica L-lenses sell for: 5000 to 6000 USD. Panasonic will not be able to undercut Leicas gross margin with too cheap options. Neither will Sigma which will probably be forced into making mostly big and heavy primes.

 

Actually it wil be more like Panasonic's FZ1000 (at $899) vs the same camera rebadged as a Leica V-Lux (at $1,425). Similarly the original Panasonic LX100, (at $899) and then rebadged as a Leica D-Lux (at $1,300). Almost no difference in hardware, albeit a minor colour science difference, and maybe longer warranties.

Which btw was what Hasselblad did with the Solar (with the A7 rebadged), albeit increasing the price Many TIMES instead. 

If that be the case, the difference between Panasonic and Leica in the S1 Series too could be between 50% and 60% (I didn't calculate the exact %). Maybe more. 

[jonpais]

Unspoken agreement between the two companies to make the S1 as large clunky and homely as humanly possible so consumers would happily pay the premium for the Leica.

[Mattias Burling]

22 minutes ago, sanveer said:

Similarly the original Panasonic LX100, (at $899) and then rebadged as a Leica D-Lux (at $1,300). 

The Leica used to include a free full version of Lightroom. And since Adobe pulled the plug it now includes 3 free months. So there is at least a little more value than just the design. 

(BTW, I hate that the support by Adobe for Lightroom has ended. Now I have to include the price of a subscription when buying a late 2018 or newer camera. Unless its a true Leica, Sigma or Pentax which of course shoots DNGs.)