Photokina 2018 Part 1: Panasonic S1 and S1R full frame 4K/60p and Fujifilm GFX 100MP 4K Medium Format. WOW!

[thebrothersthre3]

I wonder if it will have 10bit 60p? 

DFD auto focus once again. Panasonic what are you doing. It says it has a deep learning AI, so maybe that is something? Regardless camera tech is really going through the roof. 

As of now though I am still set on a Fuji XT3. Medium format interests me tho. 

[noone]

1 hour ago, mkabi said:

You know what.... at this point, even if Sony put out an a7S3... its like... oh ok... another contender that has caught up to the benchmark that Panasonic is setting.

In fact, I would even say that Fuji is really setting the bar here... just when Panasonic goes FF.... oh yeah? MF is really the direction the industry is going ?

Maybe, maybe not.

The Panasonic cameras are really just announcements of things to come next year.

Sony may still surprise with an A7siii that slips in BEFORE the Panasonic cameras are actually released (if the Sony is coming at all that is)!

The issue for me with the Panasonic cameras is that unless you are a shareholder in Panasonic, these new cameras will be as alien to M43 users as Canon, Sony

or Nikon (actually for Canon even more so since Canon EF lenses can be adapted with near native AF at least for AFS).

Think about it, a set of M43 lenses will not work on these new cameras and I doubt the Leica L mount lenses will work anytime soon on a GH5 or other M43 camera

so you would need two sets of lenses if going with Pana FF and M43 but with Canon EF lenses you can go FF AND M43 (and Sony E can too and more).

These Pana/Leica/Sigma cameras will want to be light years better than anything else to be successful since for all but a very small number of people it means an entirely new and expensive system aimed at pros and high end users and a VERY expensive switch.            IF Sony puts out a A7siii, it will be usable along with all

the other Sony stuff right form release so unless they stuff it up big time, I would think it is going to be good (again, assuming it does actually arrive).

 

Choice is good and getting better but it is coming to the point there will be too MUCH choice for them all to survive.

[thebrothersthre3]

1 hour ago, noone said:

Maybe, maybe not.

The Panasonic cameras are really just announcements of things to come next year.

Sony may still surprise with an A7siii that slips in BEFORE the Panasonic cameras are actually released (if the Sony is coming at all that is)!

The issue for me with the Panasonic cameras is that unless you are a shareholder in Panasonic, these new cameras will be as alien to M43 users as Canon, Sony

or Nikon (actually for Canon even more so since Canon EF lenses can be adapted with near native AF at least for AFS).

Think about it, a set of M43 lenses will not work on these new cameras and I doubt the Leica L mount lenses will work anytime soon on a GH5 or other M43 camera

so you would need two sets of lenses if going with Pana FF and M43 but with Canon EF lenses you can go FF AND M43 (and Sony E can too and more).

These Pana/Leica/Sigma cameras will want to be light years better than anything else to be successful since for all but a very small number of people it means an entirely new and expensive system aimed at pros and high end users and a VERY expensive switch.            IF Sony puts out a A7siii, it will be usable along with all

the other Sony stuff right form release so unless they stuff it up big time, I would think it is going to be good (again, assuming it does actually arrive).

 

Choice is good and getting better but it is coming to the point there will be too MUCH choice for them all to survive.

I agree, they are pretty much a new player to some extent. I am pretty sure Sony will release an A7S3 very soon. 

[kye]

@noone I agree that there are too many systems to survive. It's an interesting time, as it is an industry in disruption and also, depending on how you look at it and over what time scales, in consolidation.

In the long term I think we will have three form factors, large modular cinema cameras with mind boggling specs, smartphones with many lenses and AI driven computational image processing, and the middle offering that will be the successful synergy of video and stills.

As smartphones eat the bottom end of the market it's the middle offering that we're moist concerned about here, and we've got a number of iterations before this space settles down.

[OzNimbus]

No articulating screen?  PASS!

Specs are meaningless if the body isn't practical.   I've had enough of dicking around with "solutions" that just add complexity.   If I can't flip the screen around the camera is useless.

I do over a million views a month on Youtube and need to get shit done.

www.youtube.com/spectresoundstudios

[Dan Sherman]

27 minutes ago, OzNimbus said:

No articulating screen?  PASS!

Specs are meaningless if the body isn't practical.   I've had enough of dicking around with "solutions" that just add complexity.   If I can't flip the screen around the camera is useless.

I do over a million views a month on Youtube and need to get shit done.

www.youtube.com/spectresoundstudios

Based on the videos on your channel, you don't need a flippy screen! Since your footage is so static, you would be much better served by an HDMI cable, and the cheapest monitor you can get your hands on.


 

[fuzzynormal]

I'd readily rent that Fuji for doc or corporate work.  

[wobba]

WOW ... no PDAF, yet again!

CDAF is barely adequate on a m4/3 size sensor that is aided by a deep depth of field. 

On a full frame sensor, with a narrow depth of field, CDAF will be a disaster. 

 

[Yurolov]

5 hours ago, mkabi said:

You know what.... at this point, even if Sony put out an a7S3... its like... oh ok... another contender that has caught up to the benchmark that Panasonic is setting.

In fact, I would even say that Fuji is really setting the bar here... just when Panasonic goes FF.... oh yeah? MF is really the direction the industry is going ?

Ha ha good luck to those trying to carry that brick around with them. Makes the 1dx mark ii look portable. It will be some time yet before these cameras get small enough and cheap enough to have any sort of market relevance except as a niche object of desire.  

[thebrothersthre3]

We've only seen the S1R, I don't think we've seen photos of the S1, which is the video centered camera. Could very well have a standard pana screen. 

[OzNimbus]

2 hours ago, Dan Sherman said:

Based on the videos on your channel, you don't need a flippy screen! Since your footage is so static, you would be much better served by an HDMI cable, and the cheapest monitor you can get your hands on.


 

Static shots, yes.   But still have to get the camera into tight spots in the studio around drummers and whatnot.  A monitor needs cabling & power.  That's extra work.   
Dealt with a Sony A7s for three years and various "solutions."   ..all of which required extra work.   Got a GH5 last year & wondered how the hell I managed without it.   Mainly because of the flip out screen!

Never switching back to a non-flipping screen, I don't care what the specs say.  Practicality trumps specs.

 

[noone]

Just realised that Sigma is going to make an adapter for Canon EF lenses for L mount.

 

If that works well (and based on some of their other adapters, no reason it shouldn't), then that brings it into play a lot more for some Canon lens users.

[Robert Collins]

18 minutes ago, noone said:

Just realised that Sigma is going to make an adapter for Canon EF lenses for L mount.

 

If that works well (and based on some of their other adapters, no reason it shouldn't), then that brings it into play a lot more for some Canon lens users.

Well apart from the fact that EF lenses have motors designed for pdaf focusing and the L mount doesnt have pdaf.

[OliKMIA]

What's up with the all the whining about the screen? Sure the regular flip screen is nicer but as long as this thing tilts up and down (which it does) that's acceptable for the majority of video work (gimbal, etc.). I really don't understand all the hate here. This is not a Vlogging or selfie camera. Discarding a major alliance between some of the best manufacturers and killers features (4k60 and Dual IS on a FF camera) just for the screen, isn't kind of silly?

That being said, I have the feeling that the S1 and S1R might not be the ultimate video L-mount bodies because:
- Panasonic said the S1 was 70% photo and 30% video oriented
- They showed a slide with a Lumix roadmap aiming for 8k in 2020 for the Tokyo Olympics

Therefore I expect that these cameras to be solid performer for video work (like the G9) without being the ultimate "FF GH5". This one may come in 2020 with 8k. Just speculations obviously.

[noone]

1 hour ago, Robert Collins said:

Well apart from the fact that EF lenses have motors designed for pdaf focusing and the L mount doesnt have pdaf.

Good point though it isn't the L mount that doesn't have PDAF but the Panasonic cameras.

Sigma is also releasing a (foveon) L mount camera next year as well and that will probably work better with Canon lenses.

I guess it will just be like the Sony CDAF only cameras working slowly for AF with the Sigma adapter and the newer hybrid Sony PDAF/CDAF cameras working much better.

Edit, it can still be ok though since Canon EF lenses focus quite fast (for AFS at least) on the CDAF only GX7 and using a Kipon adapter.

This should be better given Kipon is a tiny third party company against this first party coming adapter.

[arant.joseph]

In regards to the new offering from Fuji, I submit a prediction:

 

Rolling shutter.

 

That is all.

[kaylee]

No Louis Vuitton Edition?  PASS!

[Mokara]

11 hours ago, mkabi said:

 

I'm so interested in the GFX 100S....

I may have to wait till 2021 to get it, but lets see the other specs are too....

 

 

The Volvo of cameras.

[Mokara]

6 hours ago, wobba said:

WOW ... no PDAF, yet again!

CDAF is barely adequate on a m4/3 size sensor that is aided by a deep depth of field. 

On a full frame sensor, with a narrow depth of field, CDAF will be a disaster. 

 

Depends on the processing power and the responsiveness of lenses. There is no inherent reason why PDAF is better than CDAF, actually if you have enough processing power the reverse would be true since you are dealing with what actually appears on the image rather than a parallax difference. Consequently it is more accurate, provided you are gathering enough data.

CDAF works better with a narrow depth of field, so putting it in a FF camera is not a disadvantage. PDAF works better with deeper depth of field, since it is essentially a crude rangefinder independent of what is in the image. This is why you will find both types in most MILCs, PDAF is used to get a rough range so the lens focus point is in about the right place, and then CDAF is used to get it set accurately. If your lens is responsive and fast enough however, you don't really need PDAF as much.

[jonpais]

Oops, sry, I thought this was the Panasonic thread. ?

Agree with the poster above - utility trumps specs anyday. If the camera, lenses, accessories, codecs and whatnot are a PITA, I’m not gonna use them. 

Some of my ideas about what’s useful have evolved over time though and I no longer consider a fully articulating screen to be a must. If it is, it looks like Canon’s the only FF mirrorless to have one atm - but at the expense of no IBIS and the crop. ?

Another factor I used to think was of utmost importance was ergonomics - button layout, an adequate grip and so forth - but now that I find myself shooting more and more on a gimbal, size, weight and how well the camera balances with lenses on a small gimbal have become more important to my way of working.