OIS vs sheer weight for stabilisation?

[kye]

I shoot hand-held, but because camera shake isn't my aesthetic I naturally assumed that OIS and IBIS were the only solutions, but I'm now wondering if the weight of some of the cine lenses will be as good as OIS.

With rigs that have heavier cine lenses do you need OIS?

 

 

I was inspired by this video which has great looking output and looks (relatively) compact.

That setup looks like an XT-3 with Ninja V and MKX 18-55 cine lens.  There are lots of other options too, for example a C100 or Pocket4K with appropriate cine glass.

I am a little bit apprehensive of the weight too, considering that I carry my rig for hours at a time, although if it was something special I'm sure I could get some comfy straps.

[IronFilm]

7 minutes ago, kye said:

I shoot hand-held, but because camera shake isn't my aesthetic I naturally assumed that OIS and IBIS were the only solutions, but I'm now wondering if the weight of some of the cine lenses will be as good as OIS.

With rigs that have heavier cine lenses do you need OIS?

It is not just the lens, but the weight of the entire rig of camera + V lock + accessories etc that makes the image stable. 

But by the time you get to that point, then you can no longer hold it steady for any extended period of time. Which is why you then need an Easyrig (or at least a shoulder rig, but that is limiting in various aspects, and still is not something you want to do for very long periods once it gets heavy). 

Have been very seriously considering getting a knock of Easyrig from China to use with my Sony PMW-F3 rig. For instance:
 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/3-18kg-Easyrig-Gimbal-Vest-Easy-Rig-Flowcine-for-DJI-Ronin-3-AXIS-Camera/332708600544

https://www.ebay.com/itm/YELANGU-3-18KG-As-Easyrig-Camera-Gimbal-Stabilizing-Vest-with-Arm-Rig-Accessory/113146003427

https://www.ebay.com/itm/8kg-Easyrig-Flowcine-Serene-Arm-Steadicam-Vest-Arm-For-3-Axis-Handheld-Gimbal/392028734017

 

 

[kye]

4 minutes ago, IronFilm said:

But by the time you get to that point, then you can no longer hold it steady for any extended period of time. Which is why you then need an Easyrig (or at least a shoulder rig, but that is limiting in various aspects, and still is not something you want to do for very long periods once it gets heavy). 

Have been very seriously considering getting a knock of Easyrig from China to use with my Sony PMW-F3 rig.

Yes, I feared as much.  I just got back from a trip where my rig was the XC10 and Rode VMP+ and all I took was a wrist strap and I kind of regret not taking a shoulder strap as carrying around the camera while not using it got a bit tiring on the hand, and that rig isn't that heavy compared to what we're talking about here!

An easy rig is way beyond where I'm willing to go, personally. 

[IronFilm]

27 minutes ago, kye said:

An easy rig is way beyond where I'm willing to go, personally. 

Yeah. Even I am sitting on the fence about using this.  Do I want to go this far? 

And I do shoots in which I'll have a 1st AC. (although, might only just be a single AC shared between 2 cameras! Although on Monday's shoot I was DoP for, at least we had a 1st AC and a 2nd AC to help out myself and my B cam op)

Certainly at the next half step up level from where I'm at, you start to see easyrigs used quite often when it is appropriate. As they're an extremely handy tool. 

But Easyrigs also extremely expensive, not sure if it is a worthwhile compromise to cheap out get a Chinese easyrig for a fraction of the cost. Yes they are heaps cheaper, but if they fail to live  up to what they promise then all of that will just be money wasted down the drain? (which could be $400+, or even US$700+ if I'm getting the chinese Serene with the Easyrig as well)

[jonpais]

Weight + balance. An easyrig is a great idea. You will still need to stabilize in post just like the pros do.The Chinese knockoffs work just fine in my experience.

 

[IronFilm]

37 minutes ago, jonpais said:

Weight + balance. An easyrig is a great idea. You will still need to stabilize in post just like the pros do.The Chinese knockoffs work just fine in my experience.

Do you have one?
 

[jonpais]

Just now, IronFilm said:

Do you have one?
 

Yes, the one I’m shooting with in the video I shared above. 

[Mako Sports]

I don't think Ive ever heard of a true Cine lens with built in IS. Ive seen those 15+ lb shoulder rigs and at that point you don't need lens IS. 

[IronFilm]

4 minutes ago, jonpais said:

Yes, the one I’m shooting with in the video I shared above. 

Ohhhhhhhhh!! Interesting you're using it with a GH5 that already has IBIS! I'd have expected it more with a GH5S instead. 

I see you've got a different easyrig model than the first two I linked to above, what made you specifically choose that design? (do you have the Serene as well?)

[jonpais]

2 minutes ago, IronFilm said:

Ohhhhhhhhh!! Interesting you're using it with a GH5 that already has IBIS! I'd have expected it more with a GH5S instead. 

I see you've got a different easyrig model than the first two I linked to above, what made you specifically choose that design? (do you have the Serene as well?)

I got the easyrig because carrying that kind of weight around would kill my back, but it helps with stabilization too and allows me to pan up and down or sideways smoothly. I'm a pretty shaky fellow.  

They do make you look like part of the Jetson family, though!

I was only able to find that particular model here in Vietnam.

I think they have one with a higher payload as well, with a correspondingly higher price. It would be worth it if you were shooting with say, the Ninja Inferno all day, since that sucker is heavy as heck. Best advice is to not buy the Inferno.  

[IronFilm]

15 minutes ago, jonpais said:

I think they have one with a higher payload as well, with a correspondingly higher price. It would be worth it if you were shooting with say, the Ninja Inferno all day, since that sucker is heavy as heck. Best advice is to not buy the Inferno.  

Am thinking about using it with the much heavier Sony PMW-F3 plus an Atomos recorder / V lock / SmallHD monitor / Mattebox / etc

 

So yeah, if I am to get an easyrig, then I just need to figure out these three aspects:

 

1) what weight rating should I get? (there are a few options. Mostly either 3-8kg or 8-18kg. Ideally I think 5-12kg would work for me? I'm kinda needing right in the middle with my Sony PMW-F3 rig. As I'm skeptical that those "3-18kg" easyrigs are really just "8-18kg" models, and I'm not sure how good/bad an overrated easyrig is with a lighter camera??)

 

2) which variation to get of the easyrig? As I see several slightly different designs in terms of the design of the harness or the knobs etc

 

3) To Serene or not?

[UncleBobsPhotography]

Perhaps we should take more note from archery stabilizers: https://luacguides.wordpress.com/equipment/stabilizers/

The goal should be to spread the mass out as much as possible while keeping image sensor (or focal plane?) in the center of mass. Putting the battery on the very back is the most obvious way of doing this, but I've also got some tungsten weights I can attach to 15mm rods to get a similar effect while keeping size down.

 

[jonpais]

Mine is rated 8-18kg, but I think those figures might be a touch optimistic. It was uncomfortable trying to shoot with the GH5, cage, Veydra and Inferno.

Maybe if I'd fiddled around with the tension it would have been better, not sure.

The only thing that gives me pause with mine is the clamp that attaches to the rig. It is spring loaded and I'm always afraid it will slip off, which is why I'd never let go of the camera while using the easyrig. 

Whichever model I got, I'd make sure that it fastens securely. 

i think you have good reason to be skeptical about the payloads. 

13 minutes ago, IronFilm said:

Am thinking about using it with the much heavier Sony PMW-F3 plus an Atomos recorder / V lock / SmallHD monitor / Mattebox / etc

 

So yeah, if I am to get an easyrig, then I just need to figure out these three aspects:

 

1) what weight rating should I get? (there are a few options. Mostly either 3-8kg or 8-18kg. Ideally I think 5-12kg would work for me? I'm kinda needing right in the middle with my Sony PMW-F3 rig. As I'm skeptical that those "3-18kg" easyrigs are really just "8-18kg" models, and I'm not sure how good/bad an overrated easyrig is with a lighter camera??)

 

2) which variation to get of the easyrig? As I see several slightly different designs in terms of the design of the harness or the knobs etc

 

3) To Serene or not?

 

Parker Wallbeck is shooting this commercial handheld with a Red and beefy Sigma Art lens, but not all of us have got biceps like that!

 

[Shirozina]

The main reason pro cinema cameras don't need stabilised lenses is not the weight but that with a global shutter camera movement is a lot less irritating / noticable. 

[androidlad]

2 minutes ago, Shirozina said:

The main reason pro cinema cameras don't need stabilised lenses is not the weight but that with a global shutter camera movement is a lot less irritating / noticable. 

F55 is the only global shutter cinema camera.

[jonpais]

The comment above about cinema cameras not needing stabilization because of global shutter is utterly ridiculous. 

[Shirozina]

43 minutes ago, androidlad said:

F55 is the only global shutter cinema camera.

RED has a mechanical shutter add on, couple of the BM cameras also have it as does the C700 in the PL version. Tho other cinema cameras have very fast refresh rates that are near enough to global anyway for the effect to be all but unnoticeable.

[IronFilm]

2 hours ago, jonpais said:

Mine is rated 8-18kg, but I think those figures might be a touch optimistic. It was uncomfortable trying to shoot with the GH5, cage, Veydra and Inferno.

That is very handy to know, as my Sony PMW-F3 would 100% be heftier, so I'll be sure not to go with any of the more lightweight easyrigs. 

 

[IronFilm]

50 minutes ago, Shirozina said:

RED has a mechanical shutter add on, couple of the BM cameras also have it as does the C700 in the PL version. Tho other cinema cameras have very fast refresh rates that are near enough to global anyway for the effect to be all but unnoticeable.

Mechanical shutter is not quite the same as global shutter. 
And all those cameras which use the BMD 4K sensor (which means the AJA CION as well) are rather flawed cameras, some people accept that, but others run far away and avoid it. So they can be excluded. 

Thus in that sense the Sony F55 is kinda the "only" cinema camera with a global shutter. (wellll.... if you ignore the few CCD cameras as well. So yeah, that "F55" response is mostly true but also has a fair few asterisks after that statement)
 

[kye]

5 hours ago, IronFilm said:

Yeah. Even I am sitting on the fence about using this.  Do I want to go this far? 

I sympathise.  In a sense I'm at the next "tier" down from you in weight, but was wondering what a heavier setup looked like and how much heavier it can be without it becoming an issue.

In a way it's a compounding weight problem.  Adding 1-2kg to a camera might mean getting a larger rig, which will add a huge amount of weight to the setup, and also size, which means you need larger cases to carry everything around..  etc etc etc.

4 hours ago, jonpais said:

Parker Wallbeck is shooting this commercial handheld with a Red and beefy Sigma Art lens, but not all of us have got biceps like that!

I think I might have thighs like that!

Whilst out shooting one day I contemplated if I should buy some of those weights you strap around your wrists as a kind of training regimen!

3 hours ago, Shirozina said:

The main reason pro cinema cameras don't need stabilised lenses is not the weight but that with a global shutter camera movement is a lot less irritating / noticable. 

That would help, but I suspect it's the rotational inertia (weight at distance) of the setups, or that these cameras are normally mounted to something that makes the most difference.