OIS vs sheer weight for stabilisation?

[jhnkng]

I was on set last week watching the camera op pull off beautiful dolly shots with an Amira off an EasyRig. It still takes a practiced hand but you couldn't do that with a lighter camera.

[kye]

6 hours ago, IronFilm said:

Which is why you then need an Easyrig (or at least a shoulder rig, but that is limiting in various aspects, and still is not something you want to do for very long periods once it gets heavy). 

I should also say that I've contemplated buying a monopod, as this could be used as a counterbalance when hand-holding the camera, but would also take the weight and give me completely stable shots, which even though I hand-hold, is still the goal for maybe half the shots I shoot.

[BTM_Pix]

12 minutes ago, kye said:

I should also say that I've contemplated buying a monopod, as this could be used as a counterbalance when hand-holding the camera, but would also take the weight and give me completely stable shots, which even though I hand-hold, is still the goal for maybe half the shots I shoot.

It's funny you should say that....

I saw this in a shop at the weekend and you immediately came to mind !

It's a bit of a jack of all trades as its a monopod and also has three leg base but these are weighted so that its actually very stable as a tripod substitute.

However, they also fold up not only for shorter storage but also act as a counter balance for its other trick which as you can see by the handle is to transform it into a steadicam.

The monopod itself is carbon fibre which obviously makes it lighter in the bag but heavier on the wallet and there are a couple of versions of it for different camera loads.

I think the price is a bit steep but this was in MediaMarkt which isn't exactly bargain world for a lot of things. I had a quick Google and the aluminium versions of the smaller one as well as different manufacturers of it are a lot cheaper online.

Obviously, I couldn't try it out in the shop so have a scout on YouTube etc for reviews but it seems like it could be a useful product. 

Unless it's shit of course

 

 

[kye]

9 minutes ago, BTM_Pix said:

It's funny you should say that....

I saw this in a shop at the weekend and you immediately came to mind !

It's a bit of a jack of all trades as its a monopod and also has three leg base but these are weighted so that its actually very stable as a tripod substitute.

However, they also fold up not only for shorter storage but also act as a counter balance for its other trick which as you can see by the handle is to transform it into a steadicam.

The monopod itself is carbon fibre which obviously makes it lighter in the bag but heavier on the wallet and there are a couple of versions of it for different camera loads.

I think the price is a bit steep but this was in MediaMarkt which isn't exactly bargain world for a lot of things. I had a quick Google and the aluminium versions of the smaller one as well as different manufacturers of it are a lot cheaper online.

Obviously, I couldn't try it out in the shop so have a scout on YouTube etc for reviews but it seems like it could be a useful product. 

Unless it's shit of course

You thought of me?  That may be a sign you should seek professional help! ???

That monopod did look interesting though, and I've contemplated a steadicam too.  I've never owned a monopod and I'm tempted to buy a super-cheap aluminium one just to 'understand' it.  

I analysed a couple of my finished videos and looked at every shot and thought about how I got the shot and if I could have used a tripod, and the short answer was that very few shots were tripod-compatible in the sense that either I couldn't get the tripod into the location (art galleries, museums, events, etc), the shot was taken faster than I would have had time to setup for, the shot required the camera to move, or the subject was moving too fast or too much during the shot for it to work.  There are some shots where a tripod would be great however, like pans of a nice scenic lookout, and these are the shots where I miss that next level of stabilisation.  In this sense a monopod would be great, especially if it was really light.

I really do struggle with equipment, and my next scenic trip is to India, which is with a humanitarian organisation to go and see the work they're doing as well as see a bit of the country.  As I'm not a professional I think I'd feel awkward showing up to see people who live in poverty with a huge camera and no reason for it other than it's a hobby.  I'm tempted to use it as a film-making development opportunity and just use my iPhone or perhaps something like the new GoPro because of the stabilisation.  I'm also a little bit concerned for the security aspects, and I'm also a bit concerned because whenever I do a tour of some kind the guide always sees my camera and thinks I'm a pro and asks me to send my finished video to them so they can use it for marketing - too much pressure!!  One of the reasons I like photography is there's no pressure..  If I only take my phone then I can use that as an excuse to limit expectations

In a sense, this thread is completely opposite to that - a modular cinema camera + cine lens + screen is a more professional setup, but once you have a camera bigger than a pocket camera I think everyone thinks you're a pro and the size doesn't matter much beyond that point

[BTM_Pix]

57 minutes ago, kye said:

I really do struggle with equipment, and my next scenic trip is to India, which is with a humanitarian organisation to go and see the work they're doing as well as see a bit of the country.  As I'm not a professional I think I'd feel awkward showing up to see people who live in poverty with a huge camera and no reason for it other than it's a hobby.  I'm tempted to use it as a film-making development opportunity and just use my iPhone or perhaps something like the new GoPro because of the stabilisation.  I'm also a little bit concerned for the security aspects, and I'm also a bit concerned because whenever I do a tour of some kind the guide always sees my camera and thinks I'm a pro and asks me to send my finished video to them so they can use it for marketing - too much pressure!!  One of the reasons I like photography is there's no pressure..  If I only take my phone then I can use that as an excuse to limit expectations

 

If you're looking for something compact, versatile and with one eye on not being too far out of pocket if it gets stolen or breaks then......

You might want to consider a used DJI Osmo Plus.

Its small, stabilised (obviously  ), has 3 times optical zoom, can take a microphone and has a few tricks it can do that would be useful on a trip such as motion timelapse, subject tracking and also the instant 180 degree selfie mode.

It also doesn't scream pro camera either.

As a bonus, it actually that novelty factor about it that will more likely encourage people to engage with you out of curiosity to what it is than shy away like they would with a pro camera.

The Osmo Plus gets a lot of hate for what it isn't and what it can't do but nowhere near enough credit for what it is and what it can do.

For the sort of trip that you are talking about, it might actually be a very appropriate option.

The bigger bonus is to pick up the M1 module which means you will be able to take the camera off the handle and replace it with the M1 to turn it into a fully fledged Osmo mobile for your iPhone. This gives you the option then of a bit more stealth and looking like a tourist if you want it without compromising the stabiliser aspect and, again, being able to take advantage of the motion time-lapse and subject tracking etc.

 

[kye]

5 hours ago, BTM_Pix said:

If you're looking for something compact, versatile and with one eye on not being too far out of pocket if it gets stolen or breaks then......

You might want to consider a used DJI Osmo Plus.

I considered the Osmo camera some years ago - it definitely doesn't get the respect it deserves.  Cameras that don't shoot shallow DoF are almost automatically scorned online unfortunately.

However, after @mercer suggested I take a G85 to India and I was looking at lenses, I realised that I have an old Panasonic GF3 and 14mm F2.5 lens in the back of the cupboard that would be perfect.  The lens is a flexible focal length, and its F5 equivalent is close to the FF F4 Iook that I believe I want.  The GF3 isn't a camera to write home about (for video anyway - it takes lovely stills), but it's tiny and will do the job of letting me test my one camera / one lens theory.

Basically my theory is that having one camera and one lens with IQ that has magic will be better than a more flexible setup that is super flexible and can shoot almost anything but has no soul.  I don't think either the 14mm F2.5 or GF3 have magic, but at least this will be a real test of the concept of having a less flexible setup and see if it works for how I shoot.

[BTM_Pix]

12 minutes ago, kye said:

Basically my theory is that having one camera and one lens with IQ that has magic will be better than a more flexible setup that is super flexible and can shoot almost anything but has no soul.  I don't think either the 14mm F2.5 or GF3 have magic, but at least this will be a real test of the concept of having a less flexible setup and see if it works for how I shoot.

Be careful, thats how people end up with a Leica Q

 

[mercer]

Idk, do a Vimeo search of Panasonic 14mm f/2.5 and BMPCC and you may find some magic... I found one for you...

 

[BTM_Pix]

26 minutes ago, mercer said:

Idk, do a Vimeo search of Panasonic 14mm f/2.5 and BMPCC and you may find some magic... I found one for you...

Whoah..hang on a minute there...

Letting shots breathe for more than 0.5 seconds, a faint whiff of a tripod and no drone shots?!!??!

What a weirdo that filmmaker must be 

 

[kye]

@mercer Yes, absolutely.  I'm not sure it's the lens that makes magic in that case, but it's still wonderful.  That was one of the videos I analysed when I was trying to work out how people shoot travel videos without IS, and I did note the tripod-like shots, which work for the tranquil style and pace of the video.

And so, I now extend my travel kit to the 14mm F2.5, Panny GF3 camera body, and Manfrotto tiny tripod!  If I also use my 256Gb SD card, with the ~20Mbps codec it will give me enough space to shoot however much I want, so no pressure to download footage each day  

That may be one of the smallest ILC with tripod setups ever!

@BTM_Pix I'm also one of these crazy film-makers that don't use every special effect in the book to try and jazz up dull footage with no storyline

One of the reasons I chose Resolve was that it was a basic editor but advanced in colour processing and things like stabilisation.  This is because my edits to date have only involved straight cuts and the odd dissolve (which I use as a scene change queue).  However, colour being so important it's great to have the tools really available - the colour performance of the other "all in one" packages is laughable, and stabilisation and other things like that to compensate for my shooting style and lack of skill

I don't own a drone either, and I'm not looking to buy one.

[mercer]

@kye I don’t know if I’ve ever seen any video from the GF3, but I’ve always liked the size and shape of it. Go for it, think like an artist and have fun with it. A lot of this crap is nonsense, I can show you some GH1 video before the hacks that are beautiful.

It isn’t news that I have an affinity for older cameras and lesser resolutions. I will shoot 48fps slow motion on my 5D3 in 2:35 which is actually less than 720p...

To this day, I still miss my D5500. Speaking of, here is a very long and boring test I did a while ago with the D5500 and Nikkor 28mm f/2. I used a Benro Monopod collapsed with the feet pressed against my shoulder. It provided enough stabilization for a run and gun set up, and I also had the option to use the Monopod in a traditional fashion...

Anyway, the point is... don’t worry about this crap, you probably already own a camera that is good enough. Or if you want something different, don’t sweat the details. The creativity you put into it will make more of a difference than any new fangled spec... well except for IBIS... that’s just magic.

[kye]

Shot and edited this today with the setup I pictured above.  GF3 + 14mm F2.5 + Manfrotto pocket tripod.

Shot in full auto with manual focus (because there are no settings available in video mode except focus mode, and autofocus is sloooow and hunts a bit), editing and colour in Resolve.

The setup was a PITA really, the tripod either obscures the screen or the MF ring on the lens, which is focus by wire, the screen is fixed so good angles are almost blind, there's no focus assists during recording apart from a slider showing you where in the focus range you are (when you stop recording it shows a small 1:1 crop so if the focus distance isn't changing then it's ok) and it's so small it's hard to hold steady although the tripod actually helps as a bit of a handle.

Not bad for a metal body camera that came with two lenses, memory card, battery, charger, UV filter, screen protector, air blower, and many other things for under $450 about a decade ago.  Of course, we're now in 2018 and I'd rather a setup that was nicer to hold, use, and could be configured in any way at all

It takes great photos though, and has full manual controls as well as RAW in stills mode.  Pity about video mode.

[IronFilm]

23 hours ago, Shirozina said:

The main reason pro cinema cameras don't need stabilised lenses is not the weight but that with a global shutter camera movement is a lot less irritating / noticable. 

False, global shutter cameras in 2018 are extraordinarily rare.

You're perhaps confusing "fast rolling shutter" (which even many very affordable cameras can manage) with "global shutter"???
 

20 hours ago, kye said:

That would help, but I suspect it's the rotational inertia (weight at distance) of the setups, or that these cameras are normally mounted to something that makes the most difference.

Absolutely. On high end shoots there are only rarely if even purely naked handheld shots. (unless that is explicitly a look that is desired)

 

20 hours ago, kye said:

I sympathise.  In a sense I'm at the next "tier" down from you in weight, but was wondering what a heavier setup looked like and how much heavier it can be without it becoming an issue.

In a way it's a compounding weight problem.  Adding 1-2kg to a camera might mean getting a larger rig, which will add a huge amount of weight to the setup, and also size, which means you need larger cases to carry everything around..  etc etc etc.

And more manpower. Getting an easyrig pretty much makes it almost essential an assistant is then used. 

20 hours ago, kye said:

I should also say that I've contemplated buying a monopod, as this could be used as a counterbalance when hand-holding the camera, but would also take the weight and give me completely stable shots, which even though I hand-hold, is still the goal for maybe half the shots I shoot.

You can make some monopod shots be basically the same as a tripod shot. 
But a monopod can also give you little jib movements, or very short "steadicam" movements, etc
Is a very versatile tool!

 

12 hours ago, kye said:

However, after @mercer suggested I take a G85 to India and I was looking at lenses, I realised that I have an old Panasonic GF3 and 14mm F2.5 lens in the back of the cupboard that would be perfect.  The lens is a flexible focal length, and its F5 equivalent is close to the FF F4 Iook that I believe I want.  The GF3 isn't a camera to write home about (for video anyway - it takes lovely stills), but it's tiny and will do the job of letting me test my one camera / one lens theory.

Basically my theory is that having one camera and one lens with IQ that has magic will be better than a more flexible setup that is super flexible and can shoot almost anything but has no soul.  I don't think either the 14mm F2.5 or GF3 have magic, but at least this will be a real test of the concept of having a less flexible setup and see if it works for how I shoot.

I have the GF3, and I'd really encourage you to take something else.... even my GX1 I liked a lot more. 
The only good thing about the GF3? Unlimited recording for fifty bucks! (and I purchased it at that price many years ago, maybe three or four years ago if not more??) Made it the perfect E Cam for weddings. 

[BTM_Pix]

1 hour ago, kye said:

Shot and edited this today with the setup I pictured above.  GF3 + 14mm F2.5 + Manfrotto pocket tripod.

Shot in full auto with manual focus (because there are no settings available in video mode except focus mode, and autofocus is sloooow and hunts a bit), editing and colour in Resolve.

The setup was a PITA really, the tripod either obscures the screen or the MF ring on the lens, which is focus by wire, the screen is fixed so good angles are almost blind, there's no focus assists during recording apart from a slider showing you where in the focus range you are (when you stop recording it shows a small 1:1 crop so if the focus distance isn't changing then it's ok) and it's so small it's hard to hold steady although the tripod actually helps as a bit of a handle.

Not bad for a metal body camera that came with two lenses, memory card, battery, charger, UV filter, screen protector, air blower, and many other things for under $450 about a decade ago.  Of course, we're now in 2018 and I'd rather a setup that was nicer to hold, use, and could be configured in any way at all

It takes great photos though, and has full manual controls as well as RAW in stills mode.  Pity about video mode.

Never mind the limitations, feel the liberty !

It got you challenged and engaged on making something with what it had rather than feeling blocked by something it didn't have.

Based on that approach but adding another layer of quality and a bit more flexibility into the mix without straying too far from the small and simple, maybe a used LX100 might be something to consider for your trip?

I'm seeing them for under £300 and that will drop further when the mark II hits the shops in a few weeks. 

[IronFilm]

43 minutes ago, BTM_Pix said:

Based on that approach but adding another layer of quality and a bit more flexibility into the mix without straying too far from the small and simple, maybe a used LX100 might be something to consider for your trip?

 

Good suggestion. 

Or if you're just going to be bringing only a body and a single prime lens anyway, why not one of the various APS-C sensor P&S options? Could be worth a consideration.

[BTM_Pix]

10 minutes ago, IronFilm said:

Or if you're just going to be bringing only a body and a single prime lens anyway, why not one of the various APS-C sensor P&S options? Could be worth a consideration.

My ultimate aim here is to keep laddering him up to the point where has no alternative but to get the new Zeiss ZX1 so we can all get a free review   

[IronFilm]

Don't reveal the end goal! You've given the end game away.

[BTM_Pix]

1 minute ago, IronFilm said:

Don't reveal the end goal! You've given the end game away.

Its OK, its a double bluff to get him to stop at the Leica X Vario.

Oh balls, I've done it again.

[IronFilm]

Layers and layers of thinking! You're playing 3D Chess with us. 

[Bioskop.Inc]

To get steady shots with a minimal set up, then you need 3 points of contact to your body - just holding the camera bare bones is a complete disaster without in-camera/lens help (& then you get that dodgy looking image). If you rig out the camera for a shoulder rig, then unless you exercise & build up your back muscles, you will ruin your back for life - you also will need to learn to put the camera down, a lot or at least take it off your shoulder (years of using ENG cameras taught me so much, especially how delicate & important your back is). Heavier lenses always help with a small camera, but again, you'll need to re-asses how you hold the camera (cradle it or use a top handle etc.) & add movement to your shots to avoid noticing those slight movements you get from breathing or just standing still for too long - you won't be able to just hold it out in front of you for extended amounts of time.

It's amazing how many people just don't want to practice, practice, practice! Handheld camera operating isn't something you can learn or be good at overnight - It's time consuming & you just can't rush to the finishing line without putting in the time. IMHO all the gimbals, IS (whether in-camera/lens or in post) etc. will never look as good or natural as a well rehearsed handheld shot & in the end you will be able to get those shots without thinking about what you're doing.

If you can't be bothered, then a Tripod or Monopod are your options - I also have the Gorillapod with me, as it's so adaptable & will get you shots you'd never be able to get with anything else.