Best APSc camera with 4:3 mode and x2 squeeze

[Robinhood]

I'm going to buy a 2X anamorphic adaptor to derive the traditional 4 perf uncropped 2.66:1 aspect ratio. 

So-- which DSLRs, whether starting at apsC or at FF (but that provide a s35 mode), have a 4:3 mode and anamorphic x2 squeeze/display option??? And obviously... 10bit is ideal.

I'd really like to get a Fuji like the X-T3, but i'm unsure if this camera has these anamorphic function modes, to even be in consideration. In other words, if I am going to buy an additional camera... like an apsC, it's gotta be a really good investment with all the appropriate custom user settings to properly monitor in camera and record in these modes to attain true uncropped 2.66  
 

Does the Canon 1DC have a 4:3 mode combined with it's 4k or s35 modes???

[elgabogomez]

None unfortunately, the only dslr-like camera with anamorphic mode is the Panasonic gh series (gh4, gh5, gh5s). You can crop the xt3 16:9 image to 4:3 in post though. Yes you loose detail and information but with 4k is not that bad. The “open gate” modes of the gh5 and gh5s give you almost the same field of view of the xt3 4:3 “crop in post” with more info and details.

You need to go to bigger cinema cameras to have anamorphic modes, the cheapest apsc being the ursa mini 4.6, then the kinefinity mavo, and then up in price to a second hand alexa or red epic.

[Robinhood]

There are no APSc cameras that have a 4:3 mode???

Does the Canon 1DC have a 4:3 modes?? I know my ML'd Canon 5diii does have a 4:3 with x2 squeeze option BUT it does NOT have a s35 mode, in order to crop into the sensor and therefore allow me to use wider FF lenses for that format, such as a 35mm or 25mm, without vignetting.

I'm basically trying to find a rig that has 4:3 and 2x squeeze, but will allow me to get to those wider focal lengths without the vignetting... so I figured an apsC camera would do the trick (since it's closest to cinema 35mm) 

other options like the Letus anamorphic adaptor won't work -- though it does allow to go as wide as 21mm on apsC, it's only a 1.3x squeeze and thus cannot capture 2.66...
I presume this setup is on a 16x9 mode as well and that is what you are referring to? I don't understand why one would go from a 2.40 image captured on a 16x9 mode into a 4:3 cropped/shaped image?

[dhessel]

Yep as stated above no such camera exists. GH4 or GH5 with a speed booster is as close as you will get.

Are you sure the MIII has a 2x squeeze mode? That is news to me as I didn't think any Canon camera could do s 2x desqueeze. Are you using Magic lantern?

[Robinhood]

6 minutes ago, dhessel said:

Yep as stated above no such camera exists. GH4 or GH5 with a speed booster is as close as you will get.

Are you sure the MIII has a 2x squeeze mode? That is news to me as I didn't think any Canon camera could do s 2x desqueeze. Are you using Magic lantern?

Good to know. May you explain to me what a speed booster does in that whole equation of doing anamorphic squeezes on a 16x9 mode??

Yeah ML does allow you to shoot at 3.5k with a 2x squeeze on a 4:3 mode-- which does grant my desired 2.66:1 aspect ratio BUT it's not punching in on the sensor to a physically smaller crop size to mimic the exact mm size of the tinier negative of 4 perf 35mm... therefore, all the full frame lenses attached to this camera will vignette quite quickly and you can't go very wide... maybe not even as wide as 50mm.... so to me, that seems entirely pointless because you can't actually use the full range of focal lengths of an anamorphic cinema prime set. 

Of course-- anyone please do chime in, if in fact, I am wrong on that-- Honestly, I hope I am since I've already got the camera and FF lenses... so if I could go wider angle and simply buy an adapter then I'd be good to go. 

This issue is why i'm thinking if a larger format FF camera has a 4:3 option on a super35 mode, The combination will allow for my wider angles to not vignette and then I don't even have to purchase a smaller format camera along with it's own set of lenses 

[DBounce]

The Red Weapon fits this description and has anamorphic modes. As does the Arri Alexa and others. You said the best.

[Robinhood]

3 minutes ago, DBounce said:

The Red Weapon fits this description and has anamorphic modes. As does the Arri Alexa and others. You said the best.

hehe yes I did. Well how about we say... the best option in the prosumer market. Or maybe any options in the prosumer markets at this point will do to fit the bill

[webrunner5]

GH4 is about the cheapest way you can go.

[DBounce]

7 hours ago, webrunner5 said:

GH4 is about the cheapest way you can go.

Only GH cameras are not APSC sized. They are M43... which is half the size of APSC. I believe Kinefinity makes something that fits the bill in their Mavo line. Or you can use a Fuji X-T3 with a Atomos Ninja V for desqeezing the image and recording the 10 Bit signal.

[dhessel]

11 hours ago, Robinhood said:

Good to know. May you explain to me what a speed booster does in that whole equation of doing anamorphic squeezes on a 16x9 mode??

Yeah ML does allow you to shoot at 3.5k with a 2x squeeze on a 4:3 mode-- which does grant my desired 2.66:1 aspect ratio BUT it's not punching in on the sensor to a physically smaller crop size to mimic the exact mm size of the tinier negative of 4 perf 35mm... therefore, all the full frame lenses attached to this camera will vignette quite quickly and you can't go very wide... maybe not even as wide as 50mm.... so to me, that seems entirely pointless because you can't actually use the full range of focal lengths of an anamorphic cinema prime set. 

Of course-- anyone please do chime in, if in fact, I am wrong on that-- Honestly, I hope I am since I've already got the camera and FF lenses... so if I could go wider angle and simply buy an adapter then I'd be good to go. 

This issue is why i'm thinking if a larger format FF camera has a 4:3 option on a super35 mode, The combination will allow for my wider angles to not vignette and then I don't even have to purchase a smaller format camera along with it's own set of lenses 

The speedbooster basically will make the m43 sensor into aps-c size sensor while giving you about one additional stop of brightness in the image.

Also I am not really aware of any cinema prime Anamorphic lenses in EF mount, that could be an issue for both the cannon and speedbooster options.

[Robinhood]

4 hours ago, DBounce said:

Or you can use a Fuji X-T3 with a Atomos Ninja V for desqeezing the image and recording the 10 Bit signal.

2

This sounds promising....can you unpack how this workflow would go? Would I be using my x2 anamorphic front adaptor atop my FF lenses (on this smaller apsC sensor) which is set to 16x9 mode? Or would I need to get ApsC lenses instead?

Can you describe the crop/sqeeze option modes that are readily available in camera for this model?

 

3 hours ago, dhessel said:

The speedbooster basically will make the m43 sensor into aps-c size sensor while giving you about one additional stop of brightness in the image.

Also I am not really aware of any cinema prime Anamorphic lenses in EF mount, that could be an issue for both the cannon and speedbooster options.

hmmm so these speed  boosters are used in conjunction with m43 lenses or with larger format lenses  (like apsC or FF) to then theoretically squeeze in more FOV to create a larger APSC size?

Is there anything in reverse? Like could I used FF lenses with some sort of speed booster attachment on a smaller sensor size format -- thus I'd just be shooting down the center of the barrel and not using the entire image circle of the lens? Sort of like when then use LF lense on a smaller 35mm cinema camera. 

If i'm stuck with having to buy an additional camera since it's my only option which provides these features... I rather not also have to invest in purchasing an enitre new set of lenses for that format too.

[dhessel]

Yes, that is basically the concept of a speed booster. A speed booster takes a larger format lens and allows you to attach it to a smaller format camera. It then strinks the image circle of the larger format lens to better fit the smaller sensor and in the process the image gets brighter. In order for this to work the flange focal distance of the lens needs to be much larger than the flange focal distance of the camera in order to fit the optics required inside. 

So for the GH5 it has a FFD of 18 or 20mm, I don't recall which,  and you can get a speed booster for EF mount lenses which has an FFD of 44mm. With the speed booters that are available today they can take the image circle of an APS-C EF mount lens and shrink it down to fit the M43 sensor of the GH5 maintaining the depth of field, field of view and adding an addition 1+ stops of brightness.

What you end up with is basically a APS-C GH5 that now has an EF mount or Nikon, etc...

[Robinhood]

7 minutes ago, dhessel said:

Yes, that is basically the concept of a speed booster. A speed booster takes a larger format lens and allows you to attach it to a smaller format camera. It then strinks the image circle of the larger format lens to better fit the smaller sensor and in the process the image gets brighter. In order for this to work the flange focal distance of the lens needs to be much larger than the flange focal distance of the camera in order to fit the optics required inside. 

So for the GH5 it has a FFD of 18 or 20mm and you can get a speed booster for EF mount lenses which has an FFD of 44mm and with the speed booters that are available today they can take the image circle of an APS-C EF mount lens and shrink it down to fit the M43 sensor of the GH5 maintaining the depth of field, field of view and adding an addition 1+ stops of brightness.

hmmm so is there a speed booster to even go from FF EF lenses down to Panasonic GH5 or Black Magic?
Does this new black magic 4k camera have all the same multi-aspect ratio sensor options as the GH5??? I'd rather go with this camera instead if so
https://www.blackmagicdesign.com/products/blackmagicpocketcinemacamera
 

Also-- any word on how the Fuji X-T3 + Atomos Ninja V external recorder option would work?? I rather go from FF lenses down to apsC than FF down to m4/3rds

Regardless--  of either m43 or the apsC options  -- I just need clarification of whether using a speed booster will or will not increase my focal length widths available compatibility without vignetting  while using the 2x front adaptor
cause FF lenses start can't go wider then 50mm, but it I can suddenly go wider to 25mm on FF lenses due to a smaller sensor size and speed booster combo onto a smaller camera format (as if I were using apsC or m43 lenses on those given formats) then then would be incredible and solve my problem

 

[DBounce]

2 hours ago, Robinhood said:

This sounds promising....can you unpack how this workflow would go? Would I be using my x2 anamorphic front adaptor atop my FF lenses (on this smaller apsC sensor) which is set to 16x9 mode? Or would I need to get ApsC lenses instead?

Can you describe the crop/sqeeze option modes that are readily available in camera for this model?

You can record the output in any number of available flavors on the Atomos Ninja V. Select the option to desqueeze to 1.33x. Assuming you have shot the footage in 16x9 aspect ratio this should correct the image. This also makes the assumption that your anamorphic lens can cover the entire sensor.

[webrunner5]

1 hour ago, Robinhood said:

hmmm so is there a speed booster to even go from FF EF lenses down to Panasonic GH5 or Black Magic?
Does this new black magic 4k camera have all the same multi-aspect ratio sensor options as the GH5??? I'd rather go with this camera instead if so
https://www.blackmagicdesign.com/products/blackmagicpocketcinemacamera
 

Also-- any word on how the Fuji X-T3 + Atomos Ninja V external recorder option would work?? I rather go from FF lenses down to apsC than FF down to m4/3rds

Regardless--  of either m43 or the apsC options  -- I just need clarification of whether using a speed booster will or will not increase my focal length widths available compatibility without vignetting  while using the 2x front adaptor
cause FF lenses start can't go wider then 50mm, but it I can suddenly go wider to 25mm on FF lenses due to a smaller sensor size and speed booster combo onto a smaller camera format (as if I were using apsC or m43 lenses on those given formats) then then would be incredible and solve my problem

 

There is No Speedbooster that can downsize that I ever heard of. They all upsize. Now you can use a Sony A7 series camera and go to the s35, APSC crop mode and put a Speedbooster on and go Back to FF. Helps with Rolling Shutter. But can't use Native lenses doing it. And you could just use a Sony A7 series as a APSC camera using the E lenses, no problem. Or you can use Clear Zoom on them and get a longer lens basically for free in FF mode. They are a damn versatile camera.

[dhessel]

1 hour ago, Robinhood said:

hmmm so is there a speed booster to even go from FF EF lenses down to Panasonic GH5 or Black Magic?
Does this new black magic 4k camera have all the same multi-aspect ratio sensor options as the GH5??? I'd rather go with this camera instead if so
https://www.blackmagicdesign.com/products/blackmagicpocketcinemacamera
 

Also-- any word on how the Fuji X-T3 + Atomos Ninja V external recorder option would work?? I rather go from FF lenses down to apsC than FF down to m4/3rds

Regardless--  of either m43 or the apsC options  -- I just need clarification of whether using a speed booster will or will not increase my focal length widths available compatibility without vignetting  while using the 2x front adaptor
cause FF lenses start can't go wider then 50mm, but it I can suddenly go wider to 25mm on FF lenses due to a smaller sensor size and speed booster combo onto a smaller camera format (as if I were using apsC or m43 lenses on those given formats) then then would be incredible and solve my problem

 

There are no speed boosters that can boost that far, APS-C is is the maximum the GH5 can use. I believe the Pocket does have the same sensor, 4:3 and anamorphic modes are probably likely but I don't what support it currently has and what is planned.

There are speedboosters that can go from FF to APS-C but it all depends on the flange focal distances of the lenses and camera. So you can buy a speedbooster to go from FF to APS-C on a Sony where you have EF lenses and the Sony E mount..

As for focal lengths and anamorphic adapters I think the widest focal length that can be used is 58mm FF with a 2X stretch, I could do that with a Helios 44 58mm and a Kowa 16H but there was still a tiny bit of vignetting. For other formats its all about equivalence so you could go as low as 30mm on M43 because the field of view, which is what matters for vignetting, is the same for a 60mm FF lens as a 30mm M43 lens.

The anamorphic adapter has a maximum FOV the taking lens can have and not vignette, nothing will change that. 

[KnightsFan]

1 hour ago, Robinhood said:

Does this new black magic 4k camera have all the same multi-aspect ratio sensor options as the GH5???

 

7 minutes ago, dhessel said:

There are no speed boosters that can boost that far, APS-C is is the maximum the GH5 can use. I believe the Pocket does have the same sensor

To clarify, the P4K has the same sensor as the GH5S, not the GH5.

Also, you can use the Speed Booster XL on a M43 sensor to get a (roughly) APS-H field of view, which is slightly larger than APS-C.

1 hour ago, Robinhood said:

Does this new black magic 4k camera have all the same multi-aspect ratio sensor options as the GH5??? I'd rather go with this camera instead if so

While it uses the same sensor, the P4K does not currently have any 4:3 recording modes.

[dhessel]

Also I am sensing from your replys that you may not have a complete understanding of focal lengths and how the relate to different formats. If I am wrong I am sorry but I recommend you study up on that a bit first.

[Robinhood]

5 hours ago, KnightsFan said:

  

To clarify, the P4K has the same sensor as the GH5S, not the GH5.

Also, you can use the Speed Booster XL on a M43 sensor to get a (roughly) APS-H field of view, which is slightly larger than APS-C.

While it uses the same sensor, the P4K does not currently have any 4:3 recording modes. 

aaghh that's so disappointing the Black magic doesn't have 4:3 mode! I love the cameras ease of use and the ability to preload LUTs and shooting in prores in camera without a recorder. Unreal for it to not have anamorphic compatibilities. Also i love the fact that is has a true stills mode that takes a screen grab of whatever you're recording video as, and doesn't revert to something else like the Canon 5D does. 
I desperately want to be able to take stills of my anamorphic images as de-squeezed 2.66 pics straight in-camera, or at the least, a squeezed image that I can manually unsqueeze in post by 2X using batch captures in photoshop

So all in all it's only the GH5 /GH5s that has a built-in multi-aspect ratio sensor in micro4/3  -- a Magic Lantern'd Canon 5Diii is the only one for full frame camera -- and there doesn't appear to be one in apsC or apsH?? Please confirm. 

This video basically proves that for my intentions, doing anamorphic via 16x9 is pointless, since it is impossible to capture the true height VFOV that one does on a 4:3 mode whether it be micro 4/3, FF, or even 4 perf 35mm film 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=reKtdJhEGg4

So now I know that 4:3 mode is required to get 2.66:1 and that I cannot get to attain the widest focal lengths of traditional 35 cinema lenses, such as the 25mm or 35mm focal lengths, unless I'm attaching my 2X anamorphic front adaptor onto either ApsC lenses + using a speed adaptor (to retain their orginally intended field of views) or simply just use micro 4/3 lenses on their given format??? Please confirm or redefine my conclusion if any of this is incorrect

Two quick clarifications: A speed booster is NOT required to fit apsC lenses onto micro4/3 camera mounts??... what I mean is, it does allow them to fit/mount AND with the added benefit of retaining their original field of view?
Secondly-- do these 35mm front element anamorphic adaptors even attached/fit onto Micro 4/3 lenses in the first place? In other words, is this even an option?

[KnightsFan]

14 minutes ago, Robinhood said:

So all in all it's only the GH5 /GH5s that has a built-in multi-aspect ratio sensor in micro4/3  -- a Magic Lantern'd Canon 5Diii is the only one for full frame camera -- and there doesn't appear to be one in apsC or apsH?? Please confirm.

The Z Cam E2, which I believe also uses the GH5S/P4K sensor, has a 4:3 mode, but afaik the E2 is still in a "beta" stage where you can get one, but only directly from their website. Very few reviews exist for it.

I don't believe there are any others. I'm not familiar with current ML capabilities. Maybe some other ML cameras can shoot 4:3 as well.

18 minutes ago, Robinhood said:

I desperately want to be able to take stills of my anamorphic images as de-squeezed 2.66 pics straight in-camera

The GH5s/P4K/E2 are all very low resolution, primarily designed for video. I wouldn't recommend taking photos with them.

30 minutes ago, Robinhood said:

A speed booster is NOT required to fit apsC lenses onto micro4/3 camera mounts??... what I mean is, it does allow them to fit/mount AND with the added benefit of retaining their original field of view?

A speed booster is not required, no.

To answer your question from before...

7 hours ago, Robinhood said:

I just need clarification of whether using a speed booster will or will not increase my focal length widths available compatibility without vignetting  while using the 2x front adaptor
cause FF lenses start can't go wider then 50mm, but it I can suddenly go wider to 25mm on FF lenses due to a smaller sensor size and speed booster combo onto a smaller camera format (as if I were using apsC or m43 lenses on those given formats) then then would be incredible and solve my problem

No. Instead of thinking of the speed booster as widening your lens, think of it as enlarging your sensor. If you put a speed booster on an APS-C camera, you now have a full frame camera. If a lens vignettes on full frame, it will vignette on APS-C+speed booster. In fact it might even vignette MORE with wide lenses with large apertures.