Administrators Andrew Reid Posted October 15, 2018 Author Administrators Share Posted October 15, 2018 A combined 1.7m views and not a single mention of serious rolling shutter in 4K. And we wonder why Canon continue to outsell Panasonic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattH Posted October 15, 2018 Share Posted October 15, 2018 The banding is fixed patten noise and happens on all canon sensors I think so its going nowhere. That's the major advantage with sony sensors which dont have this flaw. About the crop. Are you absolutely sure its cropping to 1.6 in apsc mode? might it be cropping more, therfore making the transition to 1.8 crop less? It would be easy to test with a tripod and another canon apsc camera with the same prime lens. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tyger11 Posted October 15, 2018 Share Posted October 15, 2018 I thought I read that the RF mount is closed, so to not expect any third party lenses (at least none with AF) until reverse engineering is done, maybe never? I'd never invest in this system until that question is answered, unless one intends to stick with Canon lenses. I'm done giving this company money; not even going to be buying Canon lenses going forward. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shield3 Posted October 16, 2018 Share Posted October 16, 2018 Remember, Andrew - the C-Log on the 1DC was manual exposure only as well? I do, and it was frustrating. It's not that way on the Cx00 series. Silly Canon. Is there an additional crop from 24 to 30p in 4k? (or 25/30 for you across the pond)? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Andrew Reid Posted October 16, 2018 Author Administrators Share Posted October 16, 2018 I could understand if the C-LOG limits were auto-ISO related - it doesn't work well under ISO 400 (banding goes through the roof) - but to restrict it so you can't use an automatic shutter speed seems a bit mental to me. No technical justification. So probably just another thing to nudge pros in the direction of a Cx00 instead. 57 minutes ago, MattH said: The banding is fixed patten noise and happens on all canon sensors I think so its going nowhere. That's the major advantage with sony sensors which dont have this flaw. Canon still seem to have a lot of the noisy circuits up-front. They don't seem to have BSI sensors. EOS R and 5D IV are FSI. Same with M50 I believe. That one is the worst for the fixed pattern banding. It is horrendous in the shadows in 4K on the M50. Quote About the crop. Are you absolutely sure its cropping to 1.6 in apsc mode? might it be cropping more, therfore making the transition to 1.8 crop less? Something to test. Actually Canon pulled a little trick in EF-S lens mode - which is the AUTOMATIC crop mode that happens when you attach an EF-S lens. They made the 1080p the same crop as the 4K - so around 1.8x - so there is no change in FOV between 1080p and 4K in movie mode. With 1.6x crop mode enabled, and a normal lens, there is. So Canon seem to think their EF-S users are too stupid to realise what's going on No 1.6x 1080p for them! Quote It would be easy to test with a tripod and another canon apsc camera with the same prime lens. All to do. I'll work on it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snowbro Posted October 16, 2018 Share Posted October 16, 2018 1 hour ago, MattH said: The banding is fixed patten noise and happens on all canon sensors I think so its going nowhere. That's the major advantage with sony sensors which dont have this flaw. About the crop. Are you absolutely sure its cropping to 1.6 in apsc mode? might it be cropping more, therfore making the transition to 1.8 crop less? It would be easy to test with a tripod and another canon apsc camera with the same prime lens. Yeah, they just have artifacting/striping when shooting into something bright ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattH Posted October 16, 2018 Share Posted October 16, 2018 1 hour ago, Andrew Reid said: Actually Canon pulled a little trick in EF-S lens mode - which is the AUTOMATIC crop mode that happens when you attach an EF-S lens. They made the 1080p the same crop as the 4K - so around 1.8x - so there is no change in FOV between 1080p and 4K in movie mode. With 1.6x crop mode enabled, and a normal lens, there is. So Canon seem to think their EF-S users are too stupid to realise what's going on No 1.6x 1080p for them! Ah ,that might be what I was thinking of. Im think I remember a review mentioning something about the the crop that was unexpected so that might have been it. I guess it is easier to get the 1080 by downscaling the 4k than line skiping a marginally larger area. Although that would lead me to think that perhaps the HD in crop mode has better detail than the line skipped full fram HD. Still I suppose the test is worth it just to see as really theres nothing physical to stop them choosing any crop they wanted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OliKMIA Posted October 16, 2018 Share Posted October 16, 2018 3 hours ago, Andrew Reid said: Yes Canon is aware of the backlash about uncompetitive video specs on DSLR and mirrorless cameras, but due to the inertia of changing the direction of such a big ship And also because most people still buy their cameras, as long as they can get away with giving less for more money, they will do it. And as you say: 3 hours ago, Andrew Reid said: They are leading the market In my case, I'm done with Canon, I haven't bought anything from them for years and I stopped investing in the EF system (except the Irix 11m f/4, I needed for a job, great lens btw). I'm keeping my old bodies and lenses and waiting for the next Sony or S1 when they'll get it right. This stupid logic is beyond me, instead of giving money to Canon I blew $10k with Panasonic over the past 5 years... and it might continue as I need a C cam for a new project. Honestly I would have been happy to keep all my money in a single system but Canon tries to force me to buy something I don't need (a huge Cine camera). It's not even about the price. 3 hours ago, Andrew Reid said: Also the 3 top EOS R reviews on YouTube don't mention the rolling shutter problem on the camera in 4K, which I think is letting down a combined total of nearly a million viewers. These 3 guys (Peter, Caleb and Jordan) are all wonderful people and I have nothing personal against them, but I think it's a major failing not to mention it. I don't know any of these guys, and that's probably why... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kisaha Posted October 16, 2018 Share Posted October 16, 2018 We shot a small internet project (with some very famous actors here) and we used the C200. The guy that rent us the camera had shot NOT even 1 raw project with it. I just don't get why anyone will buy half of the Canon products anymore. He also just got a 80D as a B cam. He considered an M camera, but no. Too many mounts! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonpais Posted October 16, 2018 Share Posted October 16, 2018 This is nothing new: Engadget, CameraLabs, Videomaker and DPReview all reported about the horrible rolling shutter issue over one month ago. I seriously doubt Canon outsells Panasonic just because a handpicked number of vloggers don't happen to mention rolling shutter in their hands-on and first impression reviews of the EOS R. First-look and first-impressions videos are just that and nothing more - not in-depth reviews - which is why Chris and Jordan refer viewers to DPReview's more detailed review on their website. This review kind of buries the lack of IBIS at the very bottom, likening it to the GH5s - a straight-up video camera if there ever was one - rather than comparing it to their direct rivals, Sony and Nikon - so can't exactly be considered unbiased. I do happen to have my own biases - I consider a 1.7X crop of much graver consequence than the lack of IBIS - and not a single reviewer mentioned in your article fails to mention it. Curiously, most also provide ample video samples, charts and tests along with their findings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmcindie Posted October 16, 2018 Share Posted October 16, 2018 If the rolling shutter in 4k is the same as a 5d mk IV, I'd say it's pretty much the same RS as on a sony 6300/6500. Or about-ish. How many of those youtubers reported a horrible RS on the a6300? I think it was discussed maybe at the this forum and then not much. It's just... a majority of users seem to still use these 4k cams in 1080p. I sold my a6300 and the guy who bought it uses always the 1080p50 mode because he wants the option to slowdown some shots. The thing is, in 1080p50 the camera looks horrendous but he doesn't care or even see it. And he makes videos constantly and bills them too haha. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonpais Posted October 16, 2018 Share Posted October 16, 2018 3 minutes ago, hmcindie said: If the rolling shutter in 4k is the same as a 5d mk IV, I'd say it's pretty much the same RS as on a sony 6300/6500. Or about-ish. How many of those youtubers reported a horrible RS on the a6300? I think it was discussed maybe at the this forum and then not much. It's just... a majority of users seem to still use these 4k cams in 1080p. I sold my a6300 and the guy who bought it uses always the 1080p50 mode because he wants the option to slowdown some shots. The thing is, in 1080p50 the camera looks horrendous. There are thousands of rolling shutter tests of the a6300 on YouTube. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmcindie Posted October 16, 2018 Share Posted October 16, 2018 Just now, jonpais said: There are thousands of rolling shutter tests of the a6300 on YouTube. Oh yeah, I guess I don't really search for that stuff anymore. It was a horrible camera that everyone loved. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonpais Posted October 16, 2018 Share Posted October 16, 2018 8 minutes ago, hmcindie said: Oh yeah, I guess I don't really search for that stuff anymore. It was a horrible camera that everyone loved. Not sure whether that’s so or what that’s got to do with this discussion, though I do know many people still shoot with those cameras. Not being argumentative, just wondering what that’s got to do with this thread... Are you saying rolling shutter’s not such a big deal after all? Or that regardless of how poor a camera is, it will sell like hotcakes? ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Members Mattias Burling Posted October 16, 2018 Super Members Share Posted October 16, 2018 Disclaimer: I dont like or want rolling shutter. I love the motion from the videos I shot with the global shuttered D16 and BMPC4K. A fun fact I've told many times before, still applies so here it goes again One of the top, if not number one, TV shows in Sweden is a game show called "On the track" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/På_spåret). Its a quite difficult show with questions about everything from food to sports in different geographical locations. Its been going on since 1987 with an average of 2 million viewers and a peak of 3.7 million. In 1990 when the record was set that accounted for 43% of the population. Remove those to young and/or to old and we get pretty much everybody. Three times every show we get to watch an up speed train ride and the camera is filming from within the train. It goes on until the contenders guess where the train is heading. So every week 2 000 000 people watch bent poles, crooked houses and leaning towers, for at least ten episodes per year. Never ever ever ever, not once, nope nope nope, no no not a single time have I or anybody I know ever heard anyone point it out or simply said "have you noticed the bent poles?" Camera nerds like us of course see it but no one else cares even a little bit. My point is, if a camera ticks all your boxes but has a flaw like aliasing, RS or a bit of noise in the shadows. Then maybe its still good enough for your audience. Imo it I rather have a camera I like with a bit of noise in the shadows than a camera I dont enjoy. User, Castorp, jonpais and 4 others 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
User Posted October 16, 2018 Share Posted October 16, 2018 To the unindentured, bashing camera specs is the last refuge of the inept and unimaginative. Vote with your dollar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Django Posted October 16, 2018 Share Posted October 16, 2018 Fair point.. and going further with that I've never heard a single viewer in the world complain that a movie/video scene had a poor/massive crop factor. Ignorance is bliss.. but that doesn't mean of course, we as filmmakers don't notice these limitations and have to work with/around them. Personally RS really bothers me. 4K on EOS-R will be locked tripod/slider shots only. and not aboard any trains! Getting back to the review (great as usual) there is one category of shooters andrew doesn't mention in his who this camera will appeal to, and those are 1080p shooters. Yes we are still alive in 2018! A lot of YT content is still 1080p, even from top tier accounts. TV/Cable is still 720p/1080i. Most hollywood movies/theatres are 2K. This is where RF/EF L/Cine lenses will matter, to get all the resolving power possible from Canon's soft 1080 and of course benefit from the entire FF. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mokara Posted October 16, 2018 Share Posted October 16, 2018 4 minutes ago, Django said: Fair point.. and going further with that I've never heard a single viewer in the world complain that a movie/video scene had a poor/massive crop factor. Ignorance is bliss.. but that doesn't mean of course, we as filmmakers don't notice these limitations and have to work with/around them. Personally RS really bothers me. 4K on EOS-R will be locked tripod/slider shots only. and not aboard any trains! Getting back to the review (great as usual) there is one category of shooters andrew doesn't mention in his who this camera will appeal to, and those are 1080p shooters. Yes we are still alive in 2018! A lot of YT content is still 1080p, even from top tier accounts. TV/Cable is still 720p/1080i. Most hollywood movies/theatres are 2K. That is weird. My TV is claiming that it is receiving 1080p input from cable. Most of the new shows on Netflix are 4K. I think you will find that a lot of YouTube content is 1080p because that is what their cameras shoot, or because everyone has told them that all you need is 1080p. Chicken and egg thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Django Posted October 16, 2018 Share Posted October 16, 2018 Depends on your country.. cable boxes usually upscale to 1080p/4K. Netflix has it's own restrictions (you won't be able to submit anything to them with your 4K DSLR/hyrbid anyhow). Casey Neistat infamously went back from shooting 4K with a GH5 to 1080p on a 6D for that FF Canon look & DPAF (i heard he's on 1DX2 now, probably EOS R soon). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy Posted October 16, 2018 Share Posted October 16, 2018 Nice article... As ever with Canon, the end image (and AF) is sometimes worth the headaches and cripples. Unless the 1080/60p is better than it first sounds though... I think i'll skip this and stick with Fuji. Not sure about this btw 12 hours ago, Andrew Reid said: I think when the EOS R was sketched out (5D Mark IV sensor), the past customers were 90% stills orientated. Now it is probably even 50-50 video and stills and they don’t seem to have the right sensor for that. I am sure the sales of this camera and all Canon cameras will still be heavily skew towards still shooters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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