Blackmagic: a middle-gound...?

[Mokara]

Speaking of the Ninja V, I wonder if you could make a sort of Frankenstein camera from it, by bolting a sensor module to the back using the mounting screws on the top and bottom. Maybe Atomos should look into that, lol. A true modular camera for relatively little effort.

The Ninja V has it's extra data port for add-ons, so you should in principle be able to control a sensor from the recorder itself. Which means it is quite feasible to do this with the way the unit was designed (their other recorders probably can't). Maybe they have that as one of the future plans?

[Yehouda]

The BMPCC 4K is already a recorder with a sensor ?

[Anaconda_]

1 hour ago, webrunner5 said:

The LS300 is just too fragile to use as a everyday throw it in the bag camera. The LCD and EVF suck on it. Ehh, you kind of Need to use them a lot. For gentle use. sure it is a great camera. But no 10 bit in 4K. Not broadcast.

I've just used it every day, 7 days a week for 4 weeks straight and I carried it in a bag each day too. It's fine. Yes the LCD and VF suck, but there are exposure tools to combat that. Learn to use those, and the build quality isn't an issue - just make sure you don't put the camera in the bag with the LCD open, but you wouldn't do that with any camera anyway. It's definitely broadcast quality.

48 minutes ago, Kisaha said:

There were some significant issues with the JVC LS300. It isn't like it was the best camera ever, and noone bought it. 

Also, they must have sold quite a few. It is the most common JVC camera around here for sure. Do we even know the name of any other recent JVC camera?! I don't.

Edit: it sure is broadcast.

The LS300 may be the most common JVC camera here, but the Sony A7 series are probably the most common Sony cameras here - doesn't really mean much right?

Their new camera has some amazing features and internal ProRes is an amazing feature, but we don't even know what it's called. Imagine if Sony released their new camera with the exact same specs - we'd definitely know what it's called, and most likely have orders in. 

 

@Yehouda - but surely the BMPCC4K can't compete with the ANVPSC4k

[kye]

If you stick with the concept that BM makes cinema cameras, then I can't think of any logical set of features that would fit the pricing gap in the lineup, unless it was to cannibalise the Ursa. As a small company with limited product development capabilities (and a serious expectation to support and improve the camera that people haven't even received yet) I'd say that they wouldn't be about to release anything else.

At the point they start committing to any type of spec for the next one:

1. They'd really want to understand what the raft of FF mirrorless cameras will do to the market
2. They'd want to understand how well BRAW is doing in the market
3. It would probably be 8K

As a company that makes cinema cameras, there isn't a logical unmet need in the middle of their range, but there is one above their range.  People talk about how BM colour science is right up there with ARRI, and if they really think big, then taking their industry knowledge they'd go really big.  Making an 8K BRAW Super URSA for mid-level cinema camera money would do for the top end what the BMPCC v1 and v2 did for 1080 RAW and 4K RAW.

I'm now sure how many people on here are that familiar with what the top of the industry looks like and how far into the stratosphere it goes?  For example, Resolve goes right to the state of the art with colour, and in that arena its competitors are things like Baselight, which I'm not sure I've heard anyone here even mention, so they're not just about bringing normal cinema tech down in price, they're also playing well above that.

[Kisaha]

4 minutes ago, Anaconda_ said:

I've just used it every day, 7 days a week for 4 weeks straight and I carried it in a bag each day too. It's fine. Yes the LCD and VF suck, but there are exposure tools to combat that. Learn to use those, and the build quality isn't an issue - just make sure you don't put the camera in the bag with the LCD open, but you wouldn't do that with any camera anyway. It's definitely broadcast quality.

The LS300 may be the most common JVC camera here, but the Sony A7 series are probably the most common Sony cameras here - doesn't really mean much right?

Their new camera has some amazing features and internal ProRes is an amazing feature, but we don't even know what it's called. Imagine if Sony released their new camera with the exact same specs - we'd definitely know what it's called, and most likely have orders in. 

It means that the Sony A is a very succesfull Sony range of products (with 7 cameras and many many lenses and accessories) and the JVC LS300 is a very successful JVC camera. It means exactly that.

[BTM_Pix]

22 minutes ago, kye said:

I'm now sure how many people on here are that familiar with what the top of the industry looks like and how far into the stratosphere it goes?  For example, Resolve goes right to the state of the art with colour, and in that arena its competitors are things like Baselight, which I'm not sure I've heard anyone here even mention, so they're not just about bringing normal cinema tech down in price, they're also playing well above that.

When BM bought DaVinci nine or ten years ago, the support contract alone for Resolve was $80,000 a year.

Even if you bought a used system, DaVinci would charge you $50,000 for their engineers to re-comission it so you could then join the service contract programme and pay them $80,000 a year.

So its not just a case of BM bringing the price of the features of high end systems down in price, they have brought the actual system down in price for normal users.

Its the same story when they bought Fairlight. 

When I was using the CMI in studios in the mid 80s, it was the price of a very decent house and when that morphed into a post-tool as the MFX-3 and FAME console from the late 90s onwards it was a similar story and now you get that for free inside Resolve.

What BM have done to bring all that stuff to the masses at such a low cost is nothing short of incredible.

I just wish they'd buy a company who make accurate on screen battery meters.....

[Mokara]

3 hours ago, Yehouda said:

The BMPCC 4K is already a recorder with a sensor ?

You can plug a SSD into it?

I'm pretty sure that the Ninja will outperform the BMPCC. The point of such a system would be the fact that it is modular, so you could do things such as switch out sensors of different sizes relatively easily. You could use whatever memory size works for you, whatever battery size works, etc. All you would need is a bracket to house the recorder, with a dumb hotshoe for attaching mics and such. The bracket would house the sensor, which in turn can be controlled through the proprietary data interface on the V. 

So, to do something like that they would need to make a bracket, a controller module (which slots in the battery mounting) with a cable to plug into the sensor to supply power and control things such as aperture/focus adjust/gain, a sensor module and a lens mount module (so that you can mount a variety of lenses). If any part of the system fails or has a significant upgrade, just replace it and keep the rest.

[andrgl]

23 minutes ago, Mokara said:

You can plug a SSD into it?

I'm pretty sure that the Ninja will outperform the BMPCC. The point of such a system would be the fact that it is modular, so you could do things such as switch out sensors of different sizes relatively easily. You could use whatever memory size works for you, whatever battery size works, etc. All you would need is a bracket to house the recorder, with a dumb hotshoe for attaching mics and such. The bracket would house the sensor, which in turn can be controlled through the proprietary data interface on the V. 

So, to do something like that they would need to make a bracket, a controller module (which slots in the battery mounting) with a cable to plug into the sensor to supply power and control things such as aperture/focus adjust/gain, a sensor module and a lens mount module (so that you can mount a variety of lenses). If any part of the system fails or has a significant upgrade, just replace it and keep the rest.

Never ever going to happen, too niche, no profit to be made. Also Blackmagic couldn't even make this work with their original URSA turret scheme.

Why would you want to swap sensors when the recorder/body is out of date in 16 months?

[Yehouda]

@Anaconda_ANVPSC4K! Sounds good! ?

@MokaraAtomos could make a camera but I don't think it is in their interest yet. Switching out sensors of different size would be great but it is already really difficult to make interchangeable mounts so it is too much to ask mostly for a first camera. The technical promblems would be really BIG.

Maybe one day Atomos will make a camera but I think DJI will move first.

[IronFilm]

7 hours ago, Mokara said:

A company like Blackmagic does not move enough product to pay for the development cost of more than a few models. They are a niche player, targeting people with big dreams and few resources. So, at the high end the make something like the Ursa to target those sorts of people in the pro segment, and something like the 4K pocket camera for those sorts of people in the consumer segment. If they did something in between they would not be competitive in the pro segment or the consumer segment (and it would come at the expense of their more targeted products that are competitive, potentially rendering them uneconomic), but it would still cost them the same as the other two cameras. That is why they are unlikely to do it.

They could help keep cost of development down by using an identical URSA Mini Pro body but with a cheaper BMPCC4K sensor in it. 

However I'd hope they'd redesign the body down to make it smaller/lighter, perhaps a third shorter for instance. And give it a new MFT mount (while still keeping ND filters built in)

But yes, I agree with your points in general. 

6 hours ago, kye said:

It would probably be 8K

Unlikely to happen this year or next from BMD

As BMD aims relatively mainstream with their cameras. As to get low prices they need decent volume. 

8K is not mainstream enough. 

For similar reasons I don't see a FF cinema camera happening from BMD either in 2019 (although I'd rate the changes of that a fair bit higher than an 8K camera happening, but still low chances). 

 

[Mokara]

5 hours ago, andrgl said:

Never ever going to happen, too niche, no profit to be made. Also Blackmagic couldn't even make this work with their original URSA turret scheme.

Why would you want to swap sensors when the recorder/body is out of date in 16 months?

If the recorder is out of date, swap a new recorder in. After all, when you use a recorder with a conventional camera, that is essentially what you are doing.

5 hours ago, Yehouda said:

@Anaconda_ANVPSC4K! Sounds good! ?

@MokaraAtomos could make a camera but I don't think it is in their interest yet. Switching out sensors of different size would be great but it is already really difficult to make interchangeable mounts so it is too much to ask mostly for a first camera. The technical promblems would be really BIG.

Maybe one day Atomos will make a camera but I think DJI will move first.

An interchangeable lens mount should not really be a problem. If it is properly designed it would simply be a matter of screwing it in. In principle it is no different from adapters people currently use on existing cameras. Since this would be a video only solution you don't need a mechanical shutter, so that would simplify the design.

[IronFilm]

23 minutes ago, Mokara said:

If the recorder is out of date, swap a new recorder in. After all, when you use a recorder with a conventional camera, that is essentially what you are doing.

In a camera like any URSA then it is the tight integration between recorder/monitor/mount/sensor/audio/etc that we value highly. 

Making various parts swapable then either ruins this completely, or makes it very complex/expensive.

[Dan Keeble]

Yep this is the URSA mini 4K. I'm still getting wonderful images from this super35mm camera, and the global shutter is handy too. 

[A_Urquhart]

I mentioned something similar in the Pocket4K thread just after I got the camera. 

I bought mine as a B Cam to the Ursa Mini Pro. Ultimately though, I would happily have paid a little more for a 'Pocket4KPro'.

Sensor wise, I'm happy with the MFT sensor as I am using mine exclusively with Speedboosters. The other downside generally for MFT is low light performance but I'm really happy with the Pocket4K in that regard. 

Blackmagic, make a Pocket4K Pro with same sensor but a form factor that can include a tilting screen, can accomodate a Sony BPU-60 style battery, an SDi output and maybe has internal ND's. For me, I would want it a little smaller than an FS5, maybe similar to a Canon XC15/ C100 style. ?

[Kisaha]

On 10/25/2018 at 11:41 AM, A_Urquhart said:

I mentioned something similar in the Pocket4K thread just after I got the camera. 

I bought mine as a B Cam to the Ursa Mini Pro. Ultimately though, I would happily have paid a little more for a 'Pocket4KPro'.

Sensor wise, I'm happy with the MFT sensor as I am using mine exclusively with Speedboosters. The other downside generally for MFT is low light performance but I'm really happy with the Pocket4K in that regard. 

Blackmagic, make a Pocket4K Pro with same sensor but a form factor that can include a tilting screen, can accomodate a Sony BPU-60 style battery, an SDi output and maybe has internal ND's. For me, I would want it a little smaller than an FS5, maybe similar to a Canon XC15/ C100 style. ?

100%.

Internal ND are mandatory, not so much the SDI.

Really surprising that BM didn't borrow any of the XC design. 

How's the low light performance vs some other cameras you have used?

[AaronChicago]

The BMPCC4k is an evolution of the original cinema camera, and original pocket - combined into one camera. 

I think BM is going higher end with a large format version of the UMP.

[Emanuel]

On 10/26/2018 at 8:25 PM, AaronChicago said:

The BMPCC4k is an evolution of the original cinema camera, and original pocket - combined into one camera. 

I think BM is going higher end with a large format version of the UMP.

Yeah, but only for the 1st part of your entry : ) I don't think nor hope/want the prediction of your 2nd line may end pretty much accurate anyway... : )) BTW that "PRO" high-end pilgrim route is simply blocking a better service from BMD on introducing into a full media convergence age we all live, more advanced and updated hybrid features such as AF, IBIS only to name a few for their middle-to-lower product range FYI : -)

Who wants to walk back?

 

[IronFilm]

On 10/27/2018 at 7:06 AM, Kisaha said:

Internal ND are mandatory, not so much the SDI.

On many pro sets SDI is kinda mandatory, or at least something more than just the one Micro HDMI output!!
 

[Kisaha]

1 hour ago, IronFilm said:

On many pro sets SDI is kinda mandatory, or at least something more than just the one Micro HDMI output!!
 

P4K has a full HDMI I believe.

I would get internal ND above everything.

If the Pro set is very pro, then they would look for a more appropriate camera, like the Ursa mini pro/EVA/FS7 e.t.c

Here we are talking about a camera to replace workhorse cameras in the middle, like the C100, FS5 the JVC LS300 even.

[mercer]

On 10/25/2018 at 2:37 AM, Dan Keeble said:

Yep this is the URSA mini 4K. I'm still getting wonderful images from this super35mm camera, and the global shutter is handy too. 

I am so tempted some days to order one. So many good videos out there with it. Hopefully it gets BRaw too.