Savannah Miller Posted November 19, 2018 Share Posted November 19, 2018 19 minutes ago, IronFilm said: So? This has happened multiple times with BMD camera releases as well. The BMPCC was the only camera I can remember that shipped without RAW enabled from the start. Most of their newer cameras have shipped without huge issues. Kinefinity doesn't even fix basic problems like monitor lag but continues to increase the specs of their cameras. I'm actually suspecting that the delays and lack of footage from the Pocket 4K is because they switched from the Sony IMX294 sensor to the slightly newer IMX299 variant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IronFilm Posted November 19, 2018 Share Posted November 19, 2018 3 hours ago, Savannah Miller said: Kinefinity doesn't even fix basic problems like monitor lag That was a blown up storm in a teacup. People have gone and measured it. The Terra 4K has no more monitor lag than is typical for many other cameras. Sometimes I think other people just are looking for reasons to dump on Kinefinity, because they're the new little guy to pick on. 3 hours ago, Savannah Miller said: continues to increase the specs of their cameras. You say that like it is a bad thing! It isn't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxmizer Posted November 19, 2018 Share Posted November 19, 2018 Leaving aside the battles, I think that if kinefinity wants to produce numbers in sales, it must price its photocameras half of what is the current price ... expand retailers and service centers. alternatively, continue to not buy anyone ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chromatron.Digital Posted November 19, 2018 Share Posted November 19, 2018 Comparing price: Most of the cameras we've all been comparing the Mavo LF to are not Large Format cinema cameras, but are Super35 sensors. Someone above said they should price the Mavo LF at $8000 to compete. There is in fact a Super35 version of the Mavo for exactly that price (http://www.kinefinity.com/shop/mavo_preorder/?lang=en). Comparing the Mavo LF to even a RED Raven or Varicam LT is like comparing oranges to a grapefruit. Comparing Resolutions: Someone said you could find an Alexa Classic with High Speed license for the price of the Mavo LF body. The Mavo shoots in 6k. The Alexa Classic shoots in 2k. It's been at least a year since I've seen or heard about an Alexa Classic on a set, for film, music videos, commercials...no client wants less than 4k footage anymore. No Cinematographer wants to rent a Classic. They're a pain in the butt to use on set, they're bulky, and because of their weight require the use of support equipment that costs many times more than equipment that will support the 2.5-lb body of the Mavo. (Side note, the Alexa LF body is 17.5-lbs!) The general pool of producers and directors have caught on, and now everyone wants 4k or they feel they're not getting their money's worth. Heck, even the Alexa Mini and Amira don't shoot in true 4k, their saving grace is that DP's can have the camera digitally upscale the 3.4k sensor (which records 3.2k 16:9) to "4k" so directors and producers are happy XD The sad thing is, the Alexa LF was only made so Arri could have a camera that was Netflix and Amazon approved. They only approve cameras for their content that have 4k+ sensors, and Arri's ALEV III sensor (in all of it's beauty) only has 3392×2200. Essentially, were the Kinefinity cameras actually sold by a retailer in the US, then they would be approved for streaming service content all the way back to the Terra 4K and KineMax 6k. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Savannah Miller Posted November 20, 2018 Share Posted November 20, 2018 Blackmagic probably sells more than 10x what Kinefinity does. Kinefinity cancelled an entire camera (Terra 5K) which supposedly had a 5K dual-gain sensor. Where were they getting a 5K dual-gain sensor with 15 stops of dynamic range when the one in the 4.6K had to be custom-designed because Fairchild Imaging didn't make one large enough. Kinefinity cameras have too high-end of an attempted feature set and price without nailing the image and basic operation like Blackmagic has done. I am definitely not surprised if Blackmagic is already working on a new camera with this Sony sensor, and if they are, it will be much cheaper. They are probably working on continuous autofocus too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IronFilm Posted November 20, 2018 Share Posted November 20, 2018 21 minutes ago, Savannah Miller said: I am definitely not surprised if Blackmagic is already working on a new camera Am I'm certain Kinefinity is working on their next camera too. So is Panasonic. So is Canon. So is Sony themselves. This is just normal business that everyone does. People are always working on their next product. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sanveer Posted November 20, 2018 Share Posted November 20, 2018 I guess the Kinefinity Mavo LF exists at a premium cinema camera price range (especially with all necessary accessories), where users want to use a system they are familiar with, by a known corporation/ manufacturers, something that has a SUPERB sales and after sales network, and something that is built and works like a tank. At that price range, newer entrants are a disadvantage, especially if their price is not a fraction of the established lot. The Blackmagic Pocket Cinema 4k crashes the Cinema Camera party by offering 4k RAW and ProRes at a fraction of the cost, along with a built in (huge) LCD, and cheap memory options, and nothing extra needed to be able to use the camera (apart from a memory card and a lens). Maybe Kinefinity should have started by making a DSLR form factor 4k camera at $2k or less and taken it from there. Jim Jannard had billions to blow (along with a markwting genius brain) when he entered the Pro Cinema Camera Market), so RED cannot be compared with the smaller players. Also RED started out at a time when the Cinema Camera market was still in its infancy wrt to RAW and other standards, so it was in many ways, a level playing field. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IronFilm Posted November 20, 2018 Share Posted November 20, 2018 1 hour ago, sanveer said: I guess the Kinefinity Mavo LF exists at a premium cinema camera price range (especially with all necessary accessories), where users want to use a system they are familiar with, by a known corporation/ manufacturers, something that has a SUPERB sales and after sales network, and something that is built and works like a tank. At that price range, newer entrants are a disadvantage, especially if their price is not a fraction of the established lot. I think many people can make the mistake of lumping all these "expensive" or "premium" cameras into one big muddled up "high end" category which they then mistakenly think is all the same tier more or less as each other. When that is not at all the case, there are many tiers located within that big muddled up lot they've mixed them up into. Keep in mind what the competition looks like where the MAVO LF is priced at. We're talking cameras like the Canon C300 mk2, Sony PMW-F5, and the RED Raven. In the professional market we're very much talking about the low/mid end segment of the market. While the Kinefinity MAVO LF is trying to promise to compete up at the levels of a Sony VENICE / Canon C700 FF / RED MONSTRO / ARRI ALEVA FF / etc, which are all placed right right at the very top top end of the market and are much much much more expensive than the MAVO LF! Thus it is understandable if there are people out there who are willing to live with some of the trade offs of a Kinefinity camera if it means they can get a "high end" camera for a "low/mid end" price. 1 hour ago, sanveer said: The Blackmagic Pocket Cinema 4k crashes the Cinema Camera party by offering 4k RAW and ProRes at a fraction of the cost, along with a built in (huge) LCD, and cheap memory options, and nothing extra needed to be able to use the camera (apart from a memory card and a lens). The BMPCC4K no more makes the MAVO LF (or Terra 4K) irrelevant than it makes any ARRI or RED irrelevant (or many other cameras from low to high, like a Panasonic EVA1 or Sony FS7, etc... or even the other dirt cheap cameras, like a Fujifilm X-T3 or Panasonic GH5 are still relevant cameras to consider even in a world with the BMPCC4K shipping) 1 hour ago, sanveer said: Maybe Kinefinity should have started by making a DSLR form factor 4k camera at $2k or less and taken it from there. Why? There is tonnes of competition in the mirrorless world. The likes of Yi and others have tried. (even Samsung! And gave up) Kinefinity is smart in the niche they've targeted, nobody else is in their little small niche area of higher end but at budget prices with the exception of the URSA Mini Pro (and some past attempts from other players, like the failed AJA CION. And some possible new entrants... Z Cam might be knocking on their door in another generation or two) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sanveer Posted November 20, 2018 Share Posted November 20, 2018 5 hours ago, IronFilm said: Why? There is tonnes of competition in the mirrorless world. The likes of Yi and others have tried. (even Samsung! And gave up) Kinefinity is smart in the niche they've targeted, nobody else is in their little small niche area of higher end but at budget prices with the exception of the URSA Mini Pro (and some past attempts from other players, like the failed AJA CION. And some possible new entrants... Z Cam might be knocking on their door in another generation or two) Offering RAW and ProRes? 5 hours ago, IronFilm said: I think many people can make the mistake of lumping all these "expensive" or "premium" cameras into one big muddled up "high end" category which they then mistakenly think is all the same tier more or less as each other. When that is not at all the case, there are many tiers located within that big muddled up lot they've mixed them up into. Keep in mind what the competition looks like where the MAVO LF is priced at. We're talking cameras like the Canon C300 mk2, Sony PMW-F5, and the RED Raven. In the professional market we're very much talking about the low/mid end segment of the market. While the Kinefinity MAVO LF is trying to promise to compete up at the levels of a Sony VENICE / Canon C700 FF / RED MONSTRO / ARRI ALEVA FF / etc, which are all placed right right at the very top top end of the market and are much much much more expensive than the MAVO LF! Thus it is understandable if there are people out there who are willing to live with some of the trade offs of a Kinefinity camera if it means they can get a "high end" camera for a "low/mid end" price. The Mavo LF price is just the brain of the camera. There are many other components (like on all major modular cinema cameras). People who can usually afford the $15000-20000 can afford another few thousand dollars for upgrading to a subjectively better camera. 6 hours ago, IronFilm said: The BMPCC4K no more makes the MAVO LF (or Terra 4K) irrelevant than it makes any ARRI or RED irrelevant (or many other cameras from low to high, like a Panasonic EVA1 or Sony FS7, etc... or even the other dirt cheap cameras, like a Fujifilm X-T3 or Panasonic GH5 are still relevant cameras to consider even in a world with the BMPCC4K shipping) Actually it does. While the Ursa Mini 4.6k may be more on the price range war, things like options for better low light, various flavours of RAW, high speed options and limitless recording put it as a competitor in some ways. The lack of more audio options, SDI and other connections, along with EVF and other accessories do obvious matter. GH5/ GH5s have other advantages of extremely long batter life, weather proof bodied, extremely affordable recording media options, huge lens line-up and practically limitless lens options with adaptors, IBIS/ OIS, etc. The cinema cameras probably don't even have OIS (except perhaps Canon EF lenses), but except for shoulder mounting (especially without stabilizers), they dong need them. All I an saying is that between the high end rentals of tge 30-65k camera range and the 4k options of DSLRs and cameras that record ProRes and RAW below the 10k mark, the middle market is more of less pushing filmmakers towards the high end, unless they are penny punching. And I am not sure why they would trust Kinefinity in the 10k (and under) and 10k+ price bracket of cameras. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
androidlad Posted November 20, 2018 Share Posted November 20, 2018 Mavo LF sensor datasheet, IMX410, shared by A7III: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sanveer Posted November 20, 2018 Share Posted November 20, 2018 1 hour ago, androidlad said: Mavo LF sensor datasheet, IMX410, shared by A7III: Wow. You're an encyclopedia of camera sensors. I now know who to contact if I ever make my own smartphone or ILC ??? webrunner5 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlexTrinder96 Posted November 21, 2018 Share Posted November 21, 2018 Some nice footage here, colours look seriously impressive! Shot at iso:10240... capitanazo, IronFilm and Alt Shoo 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IronFilm Posted November 21, 2018 Share Posted November 21, 2018 9 hours ago, sanveer said: Offering RAW and ProRes? I was speculating, I said "within a generation or two". But as it is, Z Cam already plans to offer ProRes with their current latest camera. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IronFilm Posted November 21, 2018 Share Posted November 21, 2018 9 hours ago, sanveer said: The Mavo LF price is just the brain of the camera. There are many other components (like on all major modular cinema cameras). I compared it to RED Raven / C300mk2 / F5. (which are low/mid range cameras, while the MAVO LF is attempting to target the highest end) You'll find that a kit (with enough batteries/media for raw for a whole day) for a new F5 or RED Raven will surely up costing more than a MAVO LF. No question about it. But I was being generous in my cost comparison (I could have listed EVA1/FS7/C200/UMP/etc as low end examples, but then people would point out they're a bit cheaper. So I went with listing low/mid range ones instead which are closer ish in price, but still more expensive than a MAVO LF) 9 hours ago, sanveer said: People who can usually afford the $15000-20000 can afford another few thousand dollars for upgrading to a subjectively better camera. But it is not a "few thousand dollars" more. Kinefinity is positioning the MAVO LF against the RED MONSTRO / Canon C700 FF / ARRI ALEVA LF / Sony VENICE but as a much much lower cost alternative, as those cost tens of thousands of dollars more. Kinefinity (like BMD) is for the shooter who wants a higher end camera than they've got the budget for and in exchange is willing to be a bit adventurous. 10 hours ago, sanveer said: The lack of more audio options, SDI and other connections, along with EVF and other accessories do obvious matter. Good. So you agree these factors matter. In fact the lack of them can completely rule a camera out from a production. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IronFilm Posted November 21, 2018 Share Posted November 21, 2018 9 hours ago, androidlad said: Mavo LF sensor datasheet, IMX410, shared by A7III Do you have proof? Could be made my Panasonic or Samsung instead. Who knows. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sanveer Posted November 21, 2018 Share Posted November 21, 2018 58 minutes ago, IronFilm said: Do you have proof? Could be made my Panasonic or Samsung instead. Who knows. Unlikely. Panasonic and Samsung aren't even in the game. They never really were. I am also curious as to who actually made the sensor for the NX1. Would love to see the datasheet on that one. It could be AltaSense or OneSemi (not not absolutely likely). The Panasonic's promised organic sensor is a very recent development (If at all), and way too high end to every make it to a camera under 50k. 3 hours ago, IronFilm said: I compared it to RED Raven / C300mk2 / F5. (which are low/mid range cameras, while the MAVO LF is attempting to target the highest end) You'll find that a kit (with enough batteries/media for raw for a whole day) for a new F5 or RED Raven will surely up costing more than a MAVO LF. No question about it. But I was being generous in my cost comparison (I could have listed EVA1/FS7/C200/UMP/etc as low end examples, but then people would point out they're a bit cheaper. So I went with listing low/mid range ones instead which are closer ish in price, but still more expensive than a MAVO LF) I must say it again. RED had practically infinite resources at hand, to begin with. And while RED seems like a great success story, it's like Spielberg making a Zero Budget Feature. For THE most influential filmmaker of our time, who also happens to be a billionaire it really is a Joke. RED was big enough to buy a few camera makers to start it's cinema camera journey. Kinefinity is not on the same footage. I read a Superb article a few days/ weeks ago about how the original RED cameras had some terrible issues with quality control, extreme delays with delivery, very poor availability of parts and very low dynamic range (well under 10 stops and barely above the 7 stops of the REC709 standard). The C200 has the same sensor as the C700. Which means it had superb low light and dual autofocus. And good RAW. And about $7.5k with great ergonomics and a body that appears way more ready to shoot (it does need lenses, batteries, Monitor, EVF, CFast Cards etc). Do you see what I am getting at. The MAVO is unable to justify the price. 4 hours ago, IronFilm said: I was speculating, I said "within a generation or two". But as it is, Z Cam already plans to offer ProRes with their current latest camera. The ProRes and RAW are still in development and it's a $2k camera. Which puts greater pressure on MAVO and other new entrants with much higher prices (maybe not compared the absolute high end of cameras). Blackmagic does it well by offering a usable camera out of the box (you actually only need a lens and Memory Card), which costs $1295, but with $300 worth of the Software Suite. And it already shoots ProRes and RAW out if the bix (unlike the ECam Z2) and will shoot even better RAW (BRAW) soon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IronFilm Posted November 21, 2018 Share Posted November 21, 2018 1 hour ago, sanveer said: I read a Superb article a few days/ weeks ago about how the original RED cameras had some terrible issues with quality control, extreme delays with delivery, very poor availability of parts and very low dynamic range (well under 10 stops and barely above the 7 stops of the REC709 standard). Oh yes, the RED ONE M (before it got the new MX sensor) was pretty bad, although my friend still shoots quite a lot with it! 1 hour ago, sanveer said: The C200 has the same sensor as the C700. Which means it had superb low light and dual autofocus. And good RAW. And about $7.5k with great ergonomics and a body that appears way more ready to shoot (it does need lenses, batteries, Monitor, EVF, CFast Cards etc). Sure, for indie filmmakers and little corporate shooters who don't care about all the flaws the C200 has vs the C700. Such as: no 10bit codec, no SDI/HDMI at once (WTF???), no TC, etc 1 hour ago, sanveer said: Do you see what I am getting at. The MAVO is unable to justify the price. No. For YOU personally then the MAVO LF is unable to justify its price. And on that point I fully agree with you. It doesn't sound like it is the right camera for you. But I still claim the MAVO LF has a place in the market for filmmakers who want a very high end specced camera for a drastically lower price. (just like BMD does with their cameras such as the UMP, which has many many fans on this forum) 1 hour ago, sanveer said: The ProRes and RAW are still in development Check out my post over in the Z Cam E2 thread. ProRes already exists right now in the Z Cam E2. sanveer 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alt Shoo Posted November 21, 2018 Share Posted November 21, 2018 I’m very curious about the MAVO LF and I understand there are other aspects to a cinema camera’s “worthiness”, but if it uses the same sensor as the Sony full frame DSLR offerings, I’ll pass. I won’t, but rather get the Sony and kit it out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IronFilm Posted November 21, 2018 Share Posted November 21, 2018 a) no proof has been given as to what sensor is being used & b) there are a billion other factors which go into the image than merely what sensor is used! And on top of that there are a billion other factors which go into a camera choice than just the image. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
androidlad Posted November 21, 2018 Share Posted November 21, 2018 7 hours ago, IronFilm said: Do you have proof? Could be made my Panasonic or Samsung instead. Who knows. I'm already walking on razor's edge posting the sensor model number and datasheet. Certainly not gonna post pictures of the module inside the camera! If you look at the resolution and framerate combination, it matches perfectly with the spec. Sony Semicon is currently the only company that supplies consumer sensors in large quantity, and that's the only FF model available. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.