Sony A7R IV / A7S III / A9 II to feature 8K video, as new 60MP and 36MP full frame sensor specs leak

[Cliff Totten]

Gain/amplification tricks are Wonderfull.

However, if a photosite is half full of photons, all of the gain/amplification tricks in the world wont change how many photons were collected. 

A photosite that is half full, is still only half full even after you add +3 or +9 or even +50db. The only way to increase the signal to noise ratio is to add more and more photons and fill up that photosite. Counting two or more "fill-ups" and adding those voltages together seems to acheive that goal....acording to MIT's lab work.

I believe that Sony STARVIS' quad pixel, multi exposure trick was the beginning of this idea. Its different but it does allow a cluster of 4 green (or red abd blue)  pixels to have two seperate exposures to collect more photons for the shadow areas. This IS a true temporal multi exposure trick.

This MIT idea is not exactly a "temporal" time trick, its using the same exposure time for all photosites, its just allowing the saturated ones to "dump and reload"  before the cycle is complete for the entire sensor. Its one global sensor exposure time with the brightest areas "stacking" their voltage output together so they avoid saturation.

I dont know...im only speculating. But I do know that gain and actual "light exposure" are two very very very very very different things.

CT

Also....I did read that MIT put a patent on this "dump, reload and stack voltages" technique. I dont know if Sony can use it or not.

[KnightsFan]

4 hours ago, androidlad said:

The 605K e- FWC at base is simply achieved by hexa-gain readout. Period.

I'm still unclear on how adjusting gain can change the FWC. Doesn't gain happen to the signal AFTER the well?

[Cliff Totten]

38 minutes ago, KnightsFan said:

I'm still unclear on how adjusting gain can change the FWC. Doesn't gain happen to the signal AFTER the well?

Absutely right. All the gain in the universe doesn't turn a half-full pixel well into a full pixel well. Gain has zero affect on the amount of light (photons) that were counted. Gain also cannot improve signal to noise ratio either. A 25% full pixel well will always be noisier than a 99% full well.

Yes, you can take a 25% full pixel well reading and amplify that (dim voltage) and amplify it to represent pure white, but it will never be the same as getting a pure white value from a 100% full pixel well. (And of course all the mid tone mappings that come with it)

"Gain" is not "exposure" in any way shape or form.

[ND64]

6 hours ago, androidlad said:

IMX490, an 1/1.55" automotive sensor, achieves up to 760Ke- with only 3um photosite

And all automative sensors do some kind of pixel binning. Use this tool and set binning factor to 4 and see what happens:

https://www.microscopyu.com/tutorials/ccd-signal-to-noise-ratio

[androidlad]

1 minute ago, Eric Calabros said:

And all automative sensors do some kind of pixel binning. Use this tool and set binning factor to 4 and see what happens:

https://www.microscopyu.com/tutorials/ccd-signal-to-noise-ratio

Nah. It's full pixel readout, no binning no temporal HDR trick.

Have a read at the IEDM 2018 Sony paper.

[ND64]

21 hours ago, androidlad said:

Nah. It's full pixel readout, no binning no temporal HDR trick.

Have a read at the IEDM 2018 Sony paper.

Its paper. You mentioned "automative" sensor as an example, and I said its very common in this industry to achieve big FWC with binning. What evidence you have that proves otherwise? 

[yoclay]

Personally, I would rather see less resolution and more of the updated processing power that is obviously being implemented given to the elimination of rolling shutter issues.  It is the single biggest dead giveaway that one is shooting with DSLR's.

[thebrothersthre3]

10 hours ago, yoclay said:

Personally, I would rather see less resolution and more of the updated processing power that is obviously being implemented given to the elimination of rolling shutter issues.  It is the single biggest dead giveaway that one is shooting with DSLR's.

I agree. I'd be perfectly happy with an A7S with 10-12 bit recording, better rolling shutter, higher bitrate high speed recording. 

[wolf33d]

On 12/27/2018 at 1:08 AM, yoclay said:

Personally, I would rather see less resolution and more of the updated processing power that is obviously being implemented given to the elimination of rolling shutter issues.  It is the single biggest dead giveaway that one is shooting with DSLR's.

I disagree. Well, I want more power too but this is a given.  More resolution is important for use for photo as well and compete with Panasonic S1. 
Today more and more people get mirorrless to shoot hybrid photo video

[webrunner5]

8 minutes ago, wolf33d said:

I disagree. Well, I want more power too but this is a given.  More resolution is important for use for photo as well and compete with Panasonic S1. 
Today more and more people get mirorrless to shoot hybrid photo video

Yeah but more resolution means smaller pixels, which means worse low light. That is the problem with most Hybrids. There is always a trade off, and usually the video side is the loser. That is why pure Cine cameras always win out. Most of them has crazy low resolution.

[wolf33d]

3 minutes ago, webrunner5 said:

Yeah but more resolution means smaller pixels, which means worse low light. That is the problem with most Hybrids. There is always a trade off, and usually the video side is the loser. That is why pure Cine cameras always win out. Most of them has crazy low resolution.

Yes but come on, A7 III low light level isn't good enough? I think in video FF we have reached an amazing level of high iso low noise now. 
24-36mpx is good I think. On top of that it allows for crop mode which the A7S cannot do. Crop mode in video is magical, 2 lenses in one without quality loss. 

[webrunner5]

33 minutes ago, wolf33d said:

Yes but come on, A7 III low light level isn't good enough? I think in video FF we have reached an amazing level of high iso low noise now. 
24-36mpx is good I think. On top of that it allows for crop mode which the A7S cannot do. Crop mode in video is magical, 2 lenses in one without quality loss. 

Yeah but the A7 mk III is "only" 24mp. Look how the A7r mk III and the Nikon Z7 are. They are worse. The Z6 is better because it is only 24mp, probably the same sensor that is in the A7 mk III with some Nikon changes. But you only really need a little over a 8mp sensor to do 4K. Same with the Fuji X-T3. Small sensor size of 26mp..

[androidlad]

17 minutes ago, webrunner5 said:

Yeah but the A7 mk III is "only" 24mp. Look how the A7r mk III and the Nikon Z7 are. They are worse. The Z6 is better because it is only 24mp, probably the same sensor that is in the A7 mk III with some Nikon changes. But you only really need a little over a 8mp sensor to do 4K. Same with the Fuji X-T3. Small sensor size of 26mp..

The 36MP IMX435 has a unique sub-pixel structure with complementary carrier (similar to below) that obliterates A7S III/A7III in terms of dynamic range and sensitivity.

[webrunner5]

Well on paper it does. Not seen in the flesh yet. But sure there is going to be breakthroughs that we can't even imagine. But the newer sensors are going to have to be 36mp or more just to be able to do 8K which is like a bit more than 33mp. No choice in the matter going forward. I doubt the new a7s is going to shoot 8k, but it might downsample from 8k

[Vision]

any eta on release date yet? 

[mercer]

Yeah, if the a7siii isn’t a small MP camera, I don’t really see the point of it. 12-14mp and 10bit 4K up to 60p (preferably 120p) and that camera is a winner. If it has better IBIS and Venice color, then win-win. With 10bit, sLog3 will be a more production viable profile that will have the best usable DR of any of its competitors.

[thebrothersthre3]

19 hours ago, mercer said:

Yeah, if the a7siii isn’t a small MP camera, I don’t really see the point of it. 12-14mp and 10bit 4K up to 60p (preferably 120p) and that camera is a winner. If it has better IBIS and Venice color, then win-win. With 10bit, sLog3 will be a more production viable profile that will have the best usable DR of any of its competitors.

I have a feeling they won't give us internal 10bit. Hopefully I am wrong. This camera could be a holy grail though. People saying Hybrid cameras are finally there in terms of being good enough. If the A7S3 delivers internal 10 bit 4k 60p with venice color, then I'll say that is true. 

[Cliff Totten]

1 hour ago, thebrothersthre3 said:

I have a feeling they won't give us internal 10bit. Hopefully I am wrong. This camera could be a holy grail though. People saying Hybrid cameras are finally there in terms of being good enough. If the A7S3 delivers internal 10 bit 4k 60p with venice color, then I'll say that is true. 

I would bet that 10bit on any future Alpha camera is a HUGE internal debate among Alpha and XDCAM/Pro division managers. I'm betting the Alpha team is eager to give 10bit while XDCAM/Pro is screaming "no way!....10bit is OUR territory!"

I'm certain that Panasonic will absolutely give their new FF cameras 10bit. This competition will greatly twist Sony's arm and probably force them to do something very uncomfortable,....make the A7S-III the first Alpha camera to have 10bit recording! Sony will do everything it can to slow the growth of Panny's new S series cameras. The last thing Sony wants is to be out-gunned ny Panasonic and give Panny a turbo-charged product rocket launch. If Sony can match Panasonic feature for feature, they can take away the "specialness" of Panny's very first full frame cameras. Sony Alpha wants to desperately steal Panasonic's thunder. 

Alpha managers will win the argument and be happy but XDCAM/Pro managers will grumble about it all the way!

LOL!

CT

[thebrothersthre3]

53 minutes ago, Cliff Totten said:

I would bet that 10bit on any future Alpha camera is a HUGE internal debate among Alpha and XDCAM/Pro division managers. I'm betting the Alpha team is eager to give 10bit while XDCAM/Pro is screaming "no way!....10bit is OUR territory!"

I'm certain that Panasonic will absolutely give their new FF cameras 10bit. This competition will greatly twist Sony's arm and probably force them to do something very uncomfortable,....make the A7S-III the first Alpha camera to have 10bit recording! Sony will do everything it can to slow the growth of Panny's new S series cameras. The last thing Sony wants is to be out-gunned ny Panasonic and give Panny a turbo-charged product rocket launch. If Sony can match Panasonic feature for feature, they can take away the "specialness" of Panny's very first full frame cameras. Sony Alpha wants to desperately steal Panasonic's thunder. 

Alpha managers will win the argument and be happy but XDCAM/Pro managers will grumble about it all the way!

LOL!

CT

Sony's auto focus will give them an edge either way though. 

[heart0less]

Any hope that these soon-to-be-announced Sony cameras will have some anamorphic mode like GH4/5 do?

Some improvements to IBIS in video mode would be a very welcome feature, as well. Especially in the APS-C body, since the sensor in there has more space to roam about.