Sony A7R IV / A7S III / A9 II to feature 8K video, as new 60MP and 36MP full frame sensor specs leak

[webrunner5]

4 minutes ago, Amazeballs said:

You dont need full frame mirrorless to do it. Get a cheaper 1 inch camcoder that has a proud 8K steaker on it and sell those. Too much trouble to cool a FF sensor. Panasonic can do it on m43. Sony on FF? Highly doubt it. 

I agree a FF one is doubtful, but it is coming like it or not. You won't know how you lived without it lol when you get one.

[Amazeballs]

I have nothing against it. If a camera can handle 8k it means it can handle every other smaller resolutions at higher framerate and bitrate. I can even imagine using 8k myself once in a year to do a smooth dolly zoom effect

[gt3rs]

I’m all in for dslr/mirror less 8k just there are no target buyers for the olympics, who owns the broadcasting rights will not shoot it with that form factor.... sony still does not have a 4k 60p mirror less .... sony will probably invest in bringing broadcast camera with 8k and hfr for > 100k usd

[Skip77]

1 hour ago, webrunner5 said:

I am talking the Broadcast people using the Sharp. Not Bob down the street. And all the big boys will probably have 8K cameras at the Olympics, even little 8K cameras. That is what sells cameras to people. If you see reporters using the smaller stuff people will run out and buy it. They are not going to run out and buy a Sony just because they are shooting the stuff with a ENG camera with a Box 96x lens on it.  And Japan has been broadcasting some 8K stuff for awhile. 8K TVs are available there, have been.

All these company have to make something happen, they are all losing customers faster than they could have ever imagined a few years ago. They have to get people to buy the latest tech.

Where do you live in Outer Mongolia? I can go down to Best Buy right now and buy a 8k TV. Well I Could afford to buy a Few models lol.

https://www.bestbuy.com/site/tvs/8k-tvs/pcmcat1552503373763.c?id=pcmcat1552503373763

Not for broadcast tv. You Tube.

58 minutes ago, webrunner5 said:

I agree a FF one is doubtful, but it is coming like it or not. You won't know how you lived without it lol when you get one.

If Sony can't get 4K video to work at a close to cine level then a Sony mirrorless camera pushing out 8K will only be worse.  You have a ton of issues that come with 8K video and 8K is not what consumers are asking for in a camera or tv display. 

The jump to 60fps and 10bit becomes harder to do with 8K and you should know this. So no 8K is not coming before the Olympics except maybe in a an entry level camera. Do smartphones do 8K yet? So there you have it.

 

[Mokara]

3 hours ago, Skip77 said:

Not for broadcast tv. You Tube.

If Sony can't get 4K video to work at a close to cine level then a Sony mirrorless camera pushing out 8K will only be worse.  You have a ton of issues that come with 8K video and 8K is not what consumers are asking for in a camera or tv display. 

The jump to 60fps and 10bit becomes harder to do with 8K and you should know this. So no 8K is not coming before the Olympics except maybe in a an entry level camera. Do smartphones do 8K yet? So there you have it.

 

Speak for yourself. I am asking for 8K. Because I know that will reduce artifacts that stem from shooting at high resolution.

Oversampled sensor cameras are shooting at 6K already, but we need more than that, especially when we start having 80"+ panels becoming commonplace. Personally I would rather be able to do that downsampling myself in post, than have the camera do it and just have to take whatever it produces. There are compromises made in that process, and the further you can put those compromises off the better it will be for your final product IQ.

If you are interested in maintaining maximum IQ you will want 8K.

[Skip77]

26 minutes ago, Mokara said:

Speak for yourself. I am asking for 8K. Because I know that will reduce artifacts that stem from shooting at high resolution.

Oversampled sensor cameras are shooting at 6K already, but we need more than that, especially when we start having 80"+ panels becoming commonplace. Personally I would rather be able to do that downsampling myself in post, than have the camera do it and just have to take whatever it produces. There are compromises made in that process, and the further you can put those compromises off the better it will be for your final product IQ.

If you are interested in maintaining maximum IQ you will want 8K.

We are getting 6k sampled down to 4k now and that's it.  The quality is not what we want across the board.

P4K is great, Nikon Z6 does a great job and the S1 looks great. And the S1H has to come out to give us better video then the previous models I mentioned. With this the S1H might not be better then the P4K or the S1 or Z6 in image quality, feature yes. 

Why does anyone want 8K with horrible rolling shutter, bad DR and cropped sensor read out? Does anyone remember how we got here and the lack of improvement to 4k video in the last two years? 

Again the P4K is great and Nikon Z6 pushed companies to finally open the gate and give us 10 bit full frame. Other then that I want these companies to improve 4k before they jump to 8K.

Some of the old timers here say go get the C100 because who needs 4K anyway.  Now 8K is something we need?

[Mokara]

39 minutes ago, Skip77 said:

We are getting 6k sampled down to 4k now and that's it.  The quality is not what we want across the board.

P4K is great, Nikon Z6 does a great job and the S1 looks great. And the S1H has to come out to give us better video then the previous models I mentioned. With this the S1H might not be better then the P4K or the S1 or Z6 in image quality, feature yes. 

Why does anyone want 8K with horrible rolling shutter, bad DR and cropped sensor read out? Does anyone remember how we got here and the lack of improvement to 4k video in the last two years? 

Again the P4K is great and Nikon Z6 pushed companies to finally open the gate and give us 10 bit full frame. Other then that I want these companies to improve 4k before they jump to 8K.

Some of the old timers here say go get the C100 because who needs 4K anyway.  Now 8K is something we need?

That is not what you said. You claimed that consumers are not asking for 8K, and that is not true. 

Saying that 8K is not important is like saying that 10 bit or 4:2:2 is not important. In all three cases more information available to the user makes for a better image after editing. 

[Skip77]

17 minutes ago, Mokara said:

That is not what you said. You claimed that consumers are not asking for 8K, and that is not true. 

Saying that 8K is not important is like saying that 10 bit or 4:2:2 is not important. In all three cases more information available to the user makes for a better image after editing. 

I don't think consumers are asking for 8K.  I din't change my opinion at all. 

People still complain about 4K and dealing with it. Consumer demand is not for 8K.  3-4 people on this thread is not the consumers that create demand.

19 minutes ago, Mokara said:

That is not what you said. You claimed that consumers are not asking for 8K, and that is not true. 

Saying that 8K is not important is like saying that 10 bit or 4:2:2 is not important. In all three cases more information available to the user makes for a better image after editing. 

No a bigger video file only means it's a bigger video file.  Bad 8K video will still be bad.

10bit 4:2:2 in 8K will be so difficult to do on a FullFrame mirrorless camera. We can hardly get 4K 10bit 4:2:2 and you want 8K. 

8k video on smartphone. 

https://momofilmfest.com/samsung-ai-8k-video-recording-smartphone-chip/

[Mokara]

If you have a large viewing panel you need higher resolution. It is not simply a case of resolving individual pixels, but resolving objects those pixels are comprising. If you have an object that is, say 3x3 pixels in size (a leaf, for example), it will resolve as a blob visually. That creates a lot of jarring ugliness in any image where said object is not blurred out through depth of field or something like that. This is a particular problem on any video that has vegetation with most current cameras/TVs. This is why stuff shot at FHD looks like complete crap from an IQ point of view on a large panel. If you are viewing on a large panel (and for immersion you want to be relatively close to it so it covers a large part of your field of view) you are easily going to see those IQ artifacts, your leaves will look like blobs instead of leaves. Maybe that looks realistic to you if you need glasses and don't have them, but if your eyesight is good you will see them.

All these "viewing distances" that people go on about when trying to rationalize shooting at low resolution ignore the fact that it is not pixel resolution that is the deciding factor, it is object resolution. 

31 minutes ago, Skip77 said:

I don't think consumers are asking for 8K.  I din't change my opinion at all. 

People still complain about 4K and dealing with it. Consumer demand is not for 8K.  3-4 people on this thread is not the consumers that create demand.

No a bigger video file only means it's a bigger video file.  Bad 8K video will still be bad.

10bit 4:2:2 in 8K will be so difficult to do on a FullFrame mirrorless camera. We can hardly get 4K 10bit 4:2:2 and you want 8K. 

8k video on smartphone. 

https://momofilmfest.com/samsung-ai-8k-video-recording-smartphone-chip/

It is only difficult to do because the processors in cameras use decade old tech.

Big files are not an issue. Storage is cheap.

Many of the high end cameras are already capable of shooting 8K 10bit. My little RX100V can shoot 20 mpixel stills at 25 fps for example, and I believe that is 12 bit. So it is capable of shooting 8K at 10bits. The problem is the limitations imposed by the processors. But, if you build a body with enough cooling for the processors, and use multiple processors if necessary to overcome the ancient technology used in them, you can shoot at those specs.

In short, there is no real technological reason to not have cameras with these capabilities, although they likely would be need to be designed as dedicated video camera bodies rather than hybrids if there is not a jump in technology.

[webrunner5]

They will make faster processors, and faster readout sensors down the road, and they will produce less heat. Tech is moving at an unheard of pace. AI and computational computing is just at it's beginnings. 8K will be the norm in 3 years like it or not.

Progress or just sit there like a bump on a log and get passed at a light speed pace. The latest tech savoy people will eat you alive. There is no stopping it.  All these company's now have to improve at a unheard of pace or die. They will all try, some will lose. If you are serious about this stuff you have to keep up like it or not.

You have always had to have deep pockets to do this stuff. The future will be even more challenging than now money wise. It is moving at a unimaginable pace. There will be more and more ways to take your money just like the past has. Nothing new. There will be 16K, 32K, on and on. And the same people will be pissing, who the hell needs that lol.

Look at these new 360 cameras now. They demand at least 8K now, and Really need 16K or more. I think they may be the future of video like them or not. No wrong camera angle, pick any scenes you want. You are probably going to have to be better at computing, editing than shooting down the road, more than now. Have to be the jack of all trades.

[Skip77]

2 hours ago, webrunner5 said:

They will make faster processors, and faster readout sensors down the road, and they will produce less heat. Tech is moving at an unheard of pace. AI and computational computing is just at it's beginnings. 8K will be the norm in 3 years like it or not.

Progress or just sit there like a bump on a log and get passed at a light speed pace. The latest tech savoy people will eat you alive. There is no stopping it.  All these company's now have to improve at a unheard of pace or die. They will all try, some will lose. If you are serious about this stuff you have to keep up like it or not.

You have always had to have deep pockets to do this stuff. The future will be even more challenging than now money wise. It is moving at a unimaginable pace. There will be more and more ways to take your money just like the past has. Nothing new. There will be 16K, 32K, on and on. And the same people will be pissing, who the hell needs that lol.

Look at these new 360 cameras now. They demand at least 8K now, and Really need 16K or more. I think they may be the future of video like them or not. No wrong camera angle, pick any scenes you want. You are probably going to have to be better at computing, editing than shooting down the road, more than now. Have to be the jack of all trades.

Not a 8K A7 Sony series or Canon or Nikon FullFrame.  Stop moving the goal post to meet your theory. You were the guy who said we don't need 4K because 1080P is fine. You also push the C100 all the time. Now you claim 8K is coming and will be the norm in 3 years. How far have we come since 2016 ? 

[webrunner5]

Well my days are over shooting video, actually they are, my shit all got stolen from my house couple days ago. But for someone like you you are going to have to get off your ass and make shit happen. And if you don't keep up your ass is grass as they used to say. So you can shit around and play silly games, or suck it up and learn to go balls to the wall. That is what it is going to take. Learn from us old timers young and old and move onward. Or just do the same old stuff everyone else is doing and loose out.

You are using the wrong brand to move forward. You will always be sucking hind tit. Nikon missed the boat a Long time ago with video. And don't give that ooh it will have 12 bit Raw. Big ass deal. Lots of cameras have has Raw for years. BMD has been doing it for years from cameras you can buy for Peanuts used and new that has a way better look to it. FF is not some damn God Mode trust me.

[Skip77]

24 minutes ago, webrunner5 said:

Well my days are over shooting video, actually they are, my shit all got stolen from my house couple days ago. But for someone like you you are going to have to get off your ass and make shit happen. And if you don't keep up your ass is grass as they used to say. So you can shit around and play silly games, or suck it up and learn to go balls to the wall. That is what it is going to take. Learn from us old timers young and old and move onward. Or just do the same old stuff everyone else is doing and loose out.

You are using the wrong brand to move forward. You will always be sucking hind tit. Nikon missed the boat a Long time ago with video. And don't give that ooh it will have 12 bit Raw. Big ass deal. Lots of cameras have has Raw for years. BMD has been doing it for years from cameras you can buy for Peanuts used and new that has a way better look to it. FF is not some damn God Mode trust me.

Was you gear covered and insured from theft.  File a claim.

@webrunner5 what can we do to help you out and help you replace the gear you had? 

Here's a few notes about me.

- I go balls to the wall right now

- I do national tv commercial but need to do one a month or more as a goal.

- My Nikon Z6 let's me shoot the in-between clients and has already saved my thousands of dollars in rental cost. 

- My Z6 matches up with C200 footage that we needed a crew, lights and stabilizer to pull off. 

- I love the look of the P4K and will pick one up in the future. 

- My FS7 DP shoot 3 days with pink dots n his sensor and that's a lesson learned

- You are under estimating the Z6 and what it cam do.

- I am keeping up with the times and technology. The Z6 was the right step in the right direction. For Now. 

- I honestly have no clue if the Nikon Z6 is the system to build anything off of except it might be my personal camera

- I know and have heard of a lot of DP's that invested in the FS7, C200 or BM Ursa Mini Pro 4.6K and are trying to sale those systems because they need full light packages because every shoot can't be a big production. No one shows up with the FS7, C200 or BM Ursa Mini Pro 4.6K ready to shoot on a lower budget. You have to light these cameras up to get them to look right. So it's not just the camera set up.

- Most DP's and videographers aren't the creative let's go land the job and handle the job from script to screen. I am that guy. 

- I've rented the RED set up with high profile DP and it worked out great. No issues and the client was 100% happy with the end result. I carried insurance and the whole 9 yards.

- My goal is to land big clients and buying a cine camera and gear won't be an issue. 

- I'm learning on the camera side. I'm a director, editor, camera and creative director.

- I'll put my creative director talent up against anyone.

- My whole goal with the Z6 was getting a B-camera that matched the C200 and FS7 on real shoots so I wasn't renting those cameras on certain jobs. So far this has worked out. 

I posted footage from the Z6 a few post back. What did you think? 

 

Here's a callout to anyone willing to help.  I need help finding the right audio gear to use on the middle end productions and higher end productions. Audio is the one part that I haven't been happy with on any production that I was involved with. I have hired multiple sound guy and the quality is not there. 

 

 

[webrunner5]

Hey as it stands right now the Nikon Z6 is a damn good camera. As all know I am not a fan of the new CS, but hey that is me. But Nikon is not going to come out, or have right now any good "better" stuff to upgrade with or too. So you are in a dead end system. Not my cup of tea if I was in it long term. YMMV.

And no I have no Homeowners Insurance. So I am shit out of luck. But hell I will live. They even stole my iPad, and ND filters on and on. Hell they even tried to steal my new TV. Found it out in my shed hidden! Pretty much my whole camera backpack also I had. Sucks ass. Still have my Tripod so I can stick my iPhone on it lol. I have endured a lot more trust me. I don't need any help. I am burned out and tired anyways. Just not the best time of my life as of late. I will live I guess and perk up in a bit lol. Old age sucks at times. I am still full of piss and vinegar so can't be too bad. But thanks for asking.

I don't know what to tell you. Sounds like you have a interesting job in the industry. This stuff is expensive as hell. Used is your friend. Some of the old stuff made lots of people lots of money for a good reason. Don't write that stuff off because it is old. Most people Only have a 720p TV in their home. We all act like we Really need 8K. For certain stuff we might. You know what you need more than me. But you have to plan ahead, not just buy the latest and greatest out at the time. For just pleasure 1080p is fine. Look at the how the OG BMPCC is for a beautiful output.

You really can't mix camera makers cameras in Post. You have to stick to one brand and marry it, lenses and all. It is hard enough let alone making it harder by mixing in stuff. Time is money and there is little time to shit around when someone else is paying for it. Just think stuff out and ask good questions. There is a lot of talented people on here.

 

[Skip77]

30 minutes ago, webrunner5 said:

Hey as it stands right now the Nikon Z6 is a damn good camera. As all know I am not a fan of the new CS, but hey that is me. But Nikon is not going to come out, or have right now any good "better" stuff to upgrade with or too. So you are in a dead end system. Not my cup of tea if I was in it long term. YMMV.

And no I have no Homeowners Insurance. So I am shit out of luck. But hell I will live. They even stole my iPad, and ND filters on and on. Hell they even tried to steal my new TV. Found it out in my shed hidden! Pretty much my whole camera backpack also I had. Sucks ass. Still have my Tripod so I can stick my iPhone on it lol. I have endured a lot more trust me. I don't need any help. I am burned out and tired anyways. Just not the best time of my life as of late. I will live I guess and perk up in a bit lol. Old age sucks at times. I am still full of piss and vinegar so can't be too bad. But thanks for asking.

I don't know what to tell you. Sounds like you have a interesting job in the industry. This stuff is expensive as hell. Used is your friend. Some of the old stuff made lots of people lots of money for a good reason. Don't write that stuff off because it is old. Most people Only have a 720p TV in their home. We all act like we Really need 8K. For certain stuff we might. You know what you need more than me. But you have to plan ahead, not just buy the latest and greatest out at the time. For just pleasure 1080p is fine. Look at the how the OG BMPCC is for a beautiful output.

You really can't mix camera makers cameras in Post. You have to stick to one brand and marry it, lenses and all. It is hard enough let alone making it harder by mixing in stuff. Time is money and there is little time to shit around when someone else is paying for it. Just think stuff out and ask good questions. There is a lot of talented people on here.

 

I wish you the best in the future. Sucks about the gear.

Nikon with 10 bit 4K out looks good for now and 12 bit RAW will be nice to play around with. (If I get the Ninja recorder).

I've learned a lot about the Z6 and it's CS. Mainly don't trust what it gives you and calibrate or adjust manually.  I used 8500K in the outside guitar guy video for the first time. The Z6 doesn't have color shift were one area is off balanced that throw off the other color. 

I shot footage last week that looked just like the C200 CS. Not just skin tone but that nice shadow color that the C200 gives you.

I want the P4K for it's reference camera value and it's a good step into cinematography.  I love to push gear and get the most out of it. 

Audio is my blind spot.

 

 

[webrunner5]

Well Kisaha and IronFilm, and others know a ton more than I do about that Audio stuff. So you are in good hands with them. But it is just about as important as the footage to be honest.

[gt3rs]

6 hours ago, webrunner5 said:

They will make faster processors, and faster readout sensors down the road, and they will produce less heat. Tech is moving at an unheard of pace. AI and computational computing is just at it's beginnings. 8K will be the norm in 3 years like it or not.

Progress or just sit there like a bump on a log and get passed at a light speed pace. The latest tech savoy people will eat you alive. There is no stopping it.  All these company's now have to improve at a unheard of pace or die. They will all try, some will lose. If you are serious about this stuff you have to keep up like it or not.

You have always had to have deep pockets to do this stuff. The future will be even more challenging than now money wise. It is moving at a unimaginable pace. There will be more and more ways to take your money just like the past has. Nothing new. There will be 16K, 32K, on and on. And the same people will be pissing, who the hell needs that lol.

Look at these new 360 cameras now. They demand at least 8K now, and Really need 16K or more. I think they may be the future of video like them or not. No wrong camera angle, pick any scenes you want. You are probably going to have to be better at computing, editing than shooting down the road, more than now. Have to be the jack of all trades.

Fully agree especially with 360.... I played around with a samsung gear 360 2 years agoo and it was just crap, now I have 2 insta360 one x and the quality is still miserable when reframed but is so much easier to reframe in post.... small wide angle cameras like gopros, osmos, drone fix lens cameras have their days counted.... with 360 reframing and stabilization is just an easier game.... just need 8k or better 16k.

Especially for things that you cannot retake is so much easier....

360 camera vendors have the advantage that is not so easy to achieve the same freedom with phones so they may have a safer market

[Kisaha]

5 hours ago, Skip77 said:

Here's a callout to anyone willing to help.  I need help finding the right audio gear to use on the middle end productions and higher end productions. Audio is the one part that I haven't been happy with on any production that I was involved with. I have hired multiple sound guy and the quality is not there. 

Sound is a lot more difficult to control and capture than light. You can blacken out a room quite easily and for cheap, but you can not soundproof it easily, and/or for cheap. Post is a lot more difficult also. You can have raw from a dead cheap camera these days, but there is no raw in sound.

I am working the sound for 20 years now and I believe that 70% of it is just experience.

If you want the best equipment, that is easy, read a few posts on a production sound forum, and go buy the most expensive ones, but I do not see that you can succeed where seasoned professionals didn't; or you just hired some kid with a Zoom H recorder and a Deity or Rode NTG2 microphone that is self proclaimed a sound man?

@gt3rs I have that Insta and is way cool in daylight. There is this Ricoh 1" now, which significantly raises the bar of what such a camera can do.

When we have 8K from 2 m43 sensors, then that will change everything.

[gt3rs]

@Kisaha yep the insta one x is misarble in low light.... The Ricoh 1" start to be usable for photos problem is that is week on video only 4k 30..... for video quality is below the insta….
I think already 8k from two 1" would already be a game changer... maybe in a year or so.... with dual cards I don't think it is a problem to save two 6k streams to be stitched to 8k problem is that they target consumers and editing on phones and low end PC would simply not work for 8k.... is already a stretch 5.7k

[newfoundmass]

17 hours ago, Mokara said:

Speak for yourself. I am asking for 8K. Because I know that will reduce artifacts that stem from shooting at high resolution.

Oversampled sensor cameras are shooting at 6K already, but we need more than that, especially when we start having 80"+ panels becoming commonplace. Personally I would rather be able to do that downsampling myself in post, than have the camera do it and just have to take whatever it produces. There are compromises made in that process, and the further you can put those compromises off the better it will be for your final product IQ.

If you are interested in maintaining maximum IQ you will want 8K.

80"+ TVs won't be commonplace anytime soon. How many people really have the room in their homes for one, whether it's mounted on the wall or on a stand? 

Most of us can't really see the full benefit of 4K on our TVs and monitors unless we're literally right in front of them. 

Most people that think they NEED 8k really don't.