Sony A7R IV / A7S III / A9 II to feature 8K video, as new 60MP and 36MP full frame sensor specs leak

[BigSheets]

6 hours ago, Django said:

I'm not saying you're not on to something... but the A7SIII rumors have simply been all over the place to the point of it reaching unicorn status.

Sony themselves have sort of admitted going back to the drawing boards and postponing its release.. 

It's one thing to have a great sensor but materializing it into a stable/viable camera is another.

As for sensor data sheets, I don't want to argue with numbers but they don't always reveal the full picture (no pun intended). 

Many claimed A73 > A7S2 in low-light but really the cam got there by "cheating" with heavy use of NR at high ISO values.

Getting back to 8K i think it will be put in the Mark IV Sony cameras, just in time for the 2020 Tokyo Olympics.

That is the roadmap deadline the Japanese tech industry has set for 8K consumer product roll-out.

If Sony were to "go back to the drawing board" with the A7Siii, it would take another 2 years to release the camera. My guess is they are battling with some bugs, most likely heat management.

[mkabi]

Anybody interested in boarding the 8K train, can buy a 8K monitor from Dell now...

https://www.dell.com/en-ca/shop/dell-ultrasharp-32-8k-monitor-up3218k/apd/210-alez/monitors-monitor-accessories

I'd be interested if it weren't so expensive

[Django]

21 hours ago, BigSheets said:

If Sony were to "go back to the drawing board" with the A7Siii, it would take another 2 years to release the camera. My guess is they are battling with some bugs, most likely heat management.

Sounds like it's a lot more than bug fixes / heat management and that “for time frame, it may require longer than you probably imagine” :

..Sony also shoots down the 8K theory inside a MILC before 2020..

[BigSheets]

20 hours ago, Django said:

Sounds like it's a lot more than bug fixes / heat management and that “for time frame, it may require longer than you probably imagine” :

..Sony also shoots down the 8K theory inside a MILC before 2020..

3

Saw this video and this is just PR spin/buying time. Redesigning a camera would be a massive fail for Sony. This camera was being planned when the A7sii launched so there is no way they're "going back to the drawing board"

[webrunner5]

Speaking of photokina, canceled next year. WTF.

https://***URL not allowed***/photokina-2019-cancelled-starting-annually-2020/

[zerocool22]

Heat management seems to be the main struggle for all companies. But they already have come far. Blackmagic managed to do it with the pocket 4K, so the rest will follow suit prob. Prob even in even smaller bodies.  

[liork]

39 minutes ago, zerocool22 said:

Heat management seems to be the main struggle for all companies. But they already have come far. Blackmagic managed to do it with the pocket 4K, so the rest will follow suit prob. Prob even in even smaller bodies.  

All Micro 4/3 have managed to do so, you do not hear about heating problems in Panasonic or Olympus cameras. In FF this is more problematic.

[zerocool22]

22 minutes ago, liork said:

All Micro 4/3 have managed to do so, you do not hear about heating problems in Panasonic or Olympus cameras. In FF this is more problematic.

APSC seems to have the same issue. As thats why the reason the ursa mini's are that big, half the camera is a cooling fan.

[Kisaha]

1 hour ago, liork said:

All Micro 4/3 have managed to do so, you do not hear about heating problems in Panasonic or Olympus cameras. In FF this is more problematic.

Olympus is not a video powerhouse and GH5(s) - the most video capable m43 cameras - is bigger and heavier than most full frame cameras so to manage heat.

[Django]

Not to mention Pocket 4K (like most cine cams) isn't weather sealed which allows it to have those big cooling vents above the mount..

[liork]

2 hours ago, Kisaha said:

Olympus is not a video powerhouse and GH5(s) - the most video capable m43 cameras - is bigger and heavier than most full frame cameras so to manage heat.

Olympus definition is not relevant. The E M1 II can shoot C4K and does not get heat. The issue is sensor size.

[androidlad]

Sensor module MOQ unit pricing revealed:

IMX410 (A7III, Z6, Mavo LF) 110000JPY
IMX251 (A7R II/III) 120000JPY
IMX309 (D850, Z7) 130000JPY
IMX455 (future 8K camera) 150000JPY (Windowed 8K & 16Bit ADC)
IMX435 (future 8K camera) 380000JPY (Ultimate all-in-one sensor with wide DR & high sensitivity)

[DBounce]

20 minutes ago, androidlad said:

Sensor module MOQ unit pricing revealed:

IMX410 (A7III, Z6, Mavo LF) 

Nikon has a sizable sensor design department. So... I’m pretty certain the Nikon Z cameras are not using Sony sensors... rather Sony manufacturers Nikon designed sensors for Nikon. 

@Andrew Reid posted an article about it. The original source was Image Resource that actually went to Nikon and toured their facility.

Just like Apple designs their own CPUs and outsources the manufacturing... Nikon does the same thing with their sensors.

The idea that Nikon is using Sony designed sensors in the Z7 or Z6 is “fake news”.

 

[Kisaha]

6 hours ago, liork said:

Olympus definition is not relevant. The E M1 II can shoot C4K and does not get heat. The issue is sensor size.

GH5 is a video camera that records unlimited video and my NX1 and NX500 never overheats with an APS-C sensor in hot hot summers. Obviously is more complicated than just "sensor size". Gaming/editing laptop's biggest issue is overheating and they do have the tiniest sensor (in their web cams)...

[Mokara]

10 hours ago, DBounce said:

Nikon has a sizable sensor design department. So... I’m pretty certain the Nikon Z cameras are not using Sony sensors... rather Sony manufacturers Nikon designed sensors for Nikon. 

@Andrew Reid posted an article about it. The original source was Image Resource that actually went to Nikon and toured their facility.

Just like Apple designs their own CPUs and outsources the manufacturing... Nikon does the same thing with their sensors.

The idea that Nikon is using Sony designed sensors in the Z7 or Z6 is “fake news”.

 

More specifically, it is an idea propagated by people who have no clue how business works.

16 hours ago, zerocool22 said:

Heat management seems to be the main struggle for all companies. But they already have come far. Blackmagic managed to do it with the pocket 4K, so the rest will follow suit prob. Prob even in even smaller bodies.  

Heat management is not an issue for BM because they have a "feature" where they do little or no compression. No compression is zero pressure on the processor, which is where heat comes from. So, in actual fact the BM "feature" just reflects the bargain basement design of their camera. If you are not doing compression, or very little, you can throw in a cheap underpowered processor and call it a done deal, but just put up some smoke to fool the noobs and call your cost cutting a "superior feature" to pull the wool over the eyes of people who don't know any better.

Marketing to the ignorant at it's finest. Convince them that less is more.

[Mokara]

5 hours ago, Kisaha said:

GH5 is a video camera that records unlimited video and my NX1 and NX500 never overheats with an APS-C sensor in hot hot summers. Obviously is more complicated than just "sensor size". Gaming/editing laptop's biggest issue is overheating and they do have the tiniest sensor (in their web cams)…

Overheating comes from the processor, not the sensor. The NX cameras did not overheat because they had a thermally efficient state of the art (at the time) processor that could handle the workloads imposed on it by the compression. Most other cameras, especially those from Canon, have more primitive processors which can't handle the work load without melting, which is why all sorts of compromises have to be made. When you buy a Canon you get crap outdated tech. They try to deflect from the deficiency by encouraging nonsense like "color science" and other such unquantifiable things that people talk about but can't really say what it is.

Good old fashioned marketing. Convince the sheep that the slaughterhouse is cool and just lead them in.

[KnightsFan]

21 minutes ago, Mokara said:

So, in actual fact the BM "feature" just reflects the bargain basement design of their camera.

 

21 minutes ago, Mokara said:

cutting a "superior feature" to pull the wool over the eyes of people who don't know any better.

I dont think thats a fair assessment of blackmagic. Prores is, for whatever reason, an industry standard. Blackmagic includes it because thats what standard workflows require. If blackmagic were responsible for making prores standard, then you could say they were just trying to market an inferior product.

Moreover, as much as i believe that more efficient encoding is better, it is significantly easier on a processor to edit lightly compressed material. Editing 4k h265 smoothly requires hardware that many people simply dont have yet, such as the computer lab at a university i recently used. Prores was simply easier for me to work with.

But for the most part, you are right. Processors seem to be a limiting factor for cameras at this point. Even "bad" codecs like low bitrate h264 can look good, if rendered with settings which are simply unattainable for real time encoding with current cameras. Its great to see sony making bigger and better sensors, but with better processors and encoders, last generation sensors could have better output.

[thebrothersthre3]

2 hours ago, KnightsFan said:

 

I dont think thats a fair assessment of blackmagic. Prores is, for whatever reason, an industry standard. Blackmagic includes it because thats what standard workflows require. If blackmagic were responsible for making prores standard, then you could say they were just trying to market an inferior product.

Moreover, as much as i believe that more efficient encoding is better, it is significantly easier on a processor to edit lightly compressed material. Editing 4k h265 smoothly requires hardware that many people simply dont have yet, such as the computer lab at a university i recently used. Prores was simply easier for me to work with.

But for the most part, you are right. Processors seem to be a limiting factor for cameras at this point. Even "bad" codecs like low bitrate h264 can look good, if rendered with settings which are simply unattainable for real time encoding with current cameras. Its great to see sony making bigger and better sensors, but with better processors and encoders, last generation sensors could have better output.

Yeah my computer doesn't playback H265 very well, at least once color grades or anything slightly heavy is applied when editing. Transcoding everything to prores now. Which I really don't mind as I save space recording H265 onto SD cards. But its nice sometimes, for quick projects, to be able to edit immediately without transcoding. 

Prores looks cleaner then highly compressed then H265 or 4, so I like it when its a recording option. 

 

 

 

 

[KnightsFan]

1 hour ago, thebrothersthre3 said:

Prores looks cleaner then highly compressed then H265 or 4, so I like it when its a recording option. 

Give h265 the same or even Half the data rate as prores and then compare. 10 bit 422 h265 at a high bitrate looks REALLY good to me.

[androidlad]