180 shutter degree rule for 60fps content

[@yan_berthemy_photography]

Hi there,

I would like to get a smooth slow motion with motion blur when rendering 60fps slow motion footage to 24fps. Can I shoot with the 180 shutter degree rule with 60fps ? Looks good in post production.

[BenEricson]

1 hour ago, @yan_berthemy_photography said:

Hi there,

I would like to get a smooth slow motion with motion blur when rendering 60fps slow motion footage to 24fps. Can I shoot with the 180 shutter degree rule with 60fps ? Looks good in post production.

It depends how fast your subject is moving and if you are following motion or not. I would suggest running tests. You're not going to be able to do any crazy twixtor or optical flow with 180 degree shutter. 

[thebrothersthre3]

If you are just slowing down to 24p then yes 180 is the norm, though you can go higher.

[scotchtape]

Yeah really depends, like if you are in a really shaky environment it's better to jack the shutter speed way high otherwise you'll get motion blur in your footage.

But for normal use 180 works just fine.

[Emanuel]

Congrats for the idea of this pertinent discussion, no matter what or where our convictions are... : -)

[@yan_berthemy_photography]

18 hours ago, thebrothersthre3 said:

If you are just slowing down to 24p then yes 180 is the norm, though you can go higher.

Hi @thebrothersthre3

 

I would like to shoot a quality video, of course, I want to use a setting that is good. Should I use 4k or C4K? Will crop decrease the pixels quality?

I want to use C4K with Shutter angle of 180 degrees, is this ok? enough smooth?

Camera used: Panasonic GH4

 

Thanks a lot, looking forward to an answer.

 

regards.

[BasiliskFilm]

If you know in advance that you are going to slow down to 24p then 180 degree will give you the "correct" amount of blur for whatever your original frame rate. The problem comes if you decide to use your footage at actual speed say 60p footage on a 30p timeline by dropping half the frames. It will look a bit choppy as your 1/120 shutter is now the equivalent of a 90 degree shutter. 

After Effects has slightly more sophisticated tools for retiming footage, if you want to ramp it up and down, and recreate "correct" motion blur in post (see Pixel Motion Blur)

In Premiere you can just send a single clip to After Effects, retime it, apply effects and still render it within your Premiere timeline.

If you are just editing in Premiere and getting creative with retiming, you will probably have to put up with some choppiness.

[@yan_berthemy_photography]

30 minutes ago, BasiliskFilm said:

If you know in advance that you are going to slow down to 24p then 180 degree will give you the "correct" amount of blur for whatever your original frame rate. The problem comes if you decide to use your footage at actual speed say 60p footage on a 30p timeline by dropping half the frames. It will look a bit choppy as your 1/120 shutter is now the equivalent of a 90 degree shutter. 

 After Effects has slightly more sophisticated tools for retiming footage, if you want to ramp it up and down, and recreate "correct" motion blur in post (see Pixel Motion Blur)

In Premiere you can just send a single clip to After Effects, retime it, apply effects and still render it within your Premiere timeline.

If you are just editing in Premiere and getting creative with retiming, you will probably have to put up with some choppiness.

Hi @BasiliskFilm

 

Thanks a lot for your kind answer,

I will use the 60fps footage on a 24fps timeline in premiere pro, so there won't be any issues.

Another question, when I want to slow down the speed of the 60fps footage, do I interpret the footage to 24fps or do I click on speed/duration and change it to 50% ? which one provides the smoothest look?

 

Regards,

Yan.

 

 

[BasiliskFilm]

1 hour ago, @yan_berthemy_photography said:

Hi @BasiliskFilm

 

Thanks a lot for your kind answer,

I will use the 60fps footage on a 24fps timeline in premiere pro, so there won't be any issues.

Another question, when I want to slow down the speed of the 60fps footage, do I interpret the footage to 24fps or do I click on speed/duration and change it to 50% ? which one provides the smoothest look?

 

Regards,

Yan.

 

 

40% is the correct slowdown from 60 on a 24 fps timeline, otherwise you will get a mis-match in frames which will certainly appear jittery.
In Premiere if you choose to slow down by a number that is not a perfect multiple, you can set Time Interpolation to "Optical Flow" in the Clip Speed dialogue. This will intelligently generate frames in between your actual frames to create smooth movement. It takes longer to render, and can occasionally create visual glitches, but is a handy option; it can even let you take your original footage down to maybe half speed again 

[@yan_berthemy_photography]

2 hours ago, BasiliskFilm said:

40% is the correct slowdown from 60 on a 24 fps timeline, otherwise you will get a mis-match in frames which will certainly appear jittery.
 In Premiere if you choose to slow down by a number that is not a perfect multiple, you can set Time Interpolation to "Optical Flow" in the Clip Speed dialogue. This will intelligently generate frames in between your actual frames to create smooth movement. It takes longer to render, and can occasionally create visual glitches, but is a handy option; it can even let you take your original footage down to maybe half speed again 

Ok, @BasiliskFilm 

I understand, but, the best way is to do directly by changing speed and duration or interpret footage as 24fps?

 

Thanks a lot.

[BasiliskFilm]

1 hour ago, @yan_berthemy_photography said:

Ok, @BasiliskFilm 

I understand, but, the best way is to do directly by changing speed and duration or interpret footage as 24fps?

 

Thanks a lot.

Interpret footage is a change you can do to a whole clip when you import it, so that it is automatically playing in slow-mo when you put it in the timeline.  Retiming is more useful when you chop a clip up and play some bits at different speeds. So it is a matter of working practice - you can produce an identical looking result either way.

[Towd]

If you are shooting at 60fps and know that you are going to be putting the footage on a 24fps timeline and running it at 40% speed so it plays at a "normal" speed, wouldn't it make more sense to shoot at at 360 degree shutter angle so your footage ends up at least close to 180 degree?  360 * .40 = 144 shutter angle

Also, if you want exactly a 180 shutter angle, but want the option of going to slow motion without using software in post, you could shoot at 48fps with a 360 degree shutter and slow by 50%.  This would remove every other frame in your timeline and give you exactly a 180 degree shutter angle.

Granted these solutions will give you a 360 shutter angle when you go slow motion, but if the vast majority of your footage is going to be normal speed, it would keep the shutter angle more natural for the majority of your footage.  Slow motion is also a non-standard look, so having a 360 shutter angle on the slow motion sections is probably less of an issue than having a 90 or 72 degree shutter angle on you normal footage ( which is what happens if you run 48 and 60 fps footage shot with a 180 degree shutter angle on a 24fps timeline).

Am I missing something here?

[@yan_berthemy_photography]

1 hour ago, Towd said:

If you are shooting at 60fps and know that you are going to be putting the footage on a 24fps timeline and running it at 40% speed so it plays at a "normal" speed, wouldn't it make more sense to shoot at at 360 degree shutter angle so your footage ends up at least close to 180 degree?  360 * .40 = 144 shutter angle

 

Doing this will ruin my footage, this will make too much motion blur when we slow 360 degree shutter speed footage.

 

I think I'll keep 180 shutter angle for 60fps for 24fps timeline and C4K 24fps 180 shutter angle.

 

Thanks a lot @Towd , appreciating your help.

[Towd]

15 minutes ago, @yan_berthemy_photography said:

Doing this will ruin my footage, this will make too much motion blur when we slow 360 degree shutter speed footage.

 

I think I'll keep 180 shutter angle for 60fps for 24fps timeline and C4K 24fps 180 shutter angle.

 

Thanks a lot @Towd , appreciating your help.

You are correct, if you are just going to run the footage shot at 60fps slowed down onto a 24fps timeline and you want to play back every frame, 180 is the best choice.  I was describing a technique for shooting at 48fps or 60fps and then playing it back at normal speed on a 24fps timeline where every other frame is dropped, but with the option of ramping into slow motion.

You seem to just be interested in running the footage as only slow motion, so in that case 180 degree is probably going to give you the most natural result.  I've done a lot of work with high speed stuff shot at 96 and 120 fps, and we've found shooting with a 360 degree shutter helps reduce strobing when the footage is ramped to normal speed.  So, I was just throwing that out there.  But it is really only a concern if you are going to drop frames to play it at "normal" speed.

Didn't mean to stir up confusion.?

[@yan_berthemy_photography]

9 minutes ago, Towd said:

You are correct, if you are just going to run the footage shot at 60fps slowed down onto a 24fps timeline and you want to play back every frame, 180 is the best choice.  I was describing a technique for shooting at 48fps or 60fps and then playing it back at normal speed on a 24fps timeline where every other frame is dropped, but with the option of ramping into slow motion.

You seem to just be interested in running the footage as only slow motion, so in that case 180 degree is probably going to give you the most natural result.  I've done a lot of work with high speed stuff shot at 96 and 120 fps, and we've found shooting with a 360 degree shutter helps reduce strobing when the footage is ramped to normal speed.  So, I was just throwing that out there.  But it is really only a concern if you are going to drop frames to play it at "normal" speed.

Didn't mean to stir up confusion.?

yes, 

Another question @Towd   , when I want to slow down the speed of the 60fps footage, do I interpret the footage to 24fps or do I click on speed/duration and change it to 50% ? which one provides the smoothest look?

[Towd]

11 minutes ago, @yan_berthemy_photography said:

yes, 

Another question @Towd   , when I want to slow down the speed of the 60fps footage, do I interpret the footage to 24fps or do I click on speed/duration and change it to 50% ? which one provides the smoothest look?

In Premiere, I think both solutions will give you the same end result.  I typically leave the import camera settings alone and just set the playback speed on the timeline.  So for 60fps footage, it would be 40% for 24fps.   Any time you are doing this, you want to be sure your time interpolation is set to "frame sampling" rather than "frame blending".

Just another caveat, some cameras can record at one speed but set playback for another speed.  (Red cameras do this.)  So in those cases the footage will already be slowed down on a 24fps timeline, and if you want it to play back at normal speed you have to speed it up.

[@yan_berthemy_photography]

Hi there, I have another issue, when I use my v-log L with 180 shutter speed in a sunny day, the 180-degree shutter speed is making too much light, so the image is burned. How do I do the get better results? Do I need to down the aperture of the lens of directly by changing the shutterspeed?

 

regards.

[webrunner5]

3 minutes ago, @yan_berthemy_photography said:

Hi there, I have another issue, when I use my v-log L with 180 shutter speed in a sunny day, the 180-degree shutter speed is making too much light, so the image is burned. How do I do the get better results? Do I need to down the aperture of the lens of directly by changing the shutterspeed?

That is the one of the reasons they made ND filters. If you shoot video, especially a camera with a Log in it, you have to own ND filters

[@yan_berthemy_photography]

16 minutes ago, webrunner5 said:

That is the one of the reasons they made ND filters. If you shoot video, especially a camera with a Log in it, you have to own ND filters

Hi, which ND filter would you suggest me for a panasonic gh4?

[@yan_berthemy_photography]

@webrunner5

 

Thanks for your answer, I will buy Tyfoto one for a pancake lens (52mm filter) 

Won't this produce a cross when filming?

 

Thanks.