AXIOM Beta

[pathfinder]

Getting close ?

 

https://www.apertus.org/november-2018-news-article

 

[webrunner5]

I think it is just going to be too expensive compared to the PK4. That camera has really hurt this and the E2 price wise.

[Dimitris Stasinos]

They where also getting close exactly 2 years before today. This is definitely a huge effort and i can partially understand the various difficulties behind the project but it is moving too slow in a fast moving market. By the time (and if) this camera is 100% functional, 8K will be a must, new sensors with better DR & sensitivity will flood the market (this has already happened) and ProRes (if not RAW) will be a standard codec in the sub 2000$ (if not less) category. As far as i know (i am not an expert in any way) this design is based on a couple of 5 year old (or more) sensors and i don't think it will be THAT modular and adaptive to newer sensor designs. Correct me if i am wrong on this but i think this project needs massive funding and a group of 10-20 full time developers to keep going, or else it's doomed.

[tweak]

3 minutes ago, Dimitris Stasinos said:

They where also getting close exactly 2 years before today. This is definitely a huge effort and i can partially understand the various difficulties behind the project but it is moving too slow in a fast moving market. By the time (and if) this camera is 100% functional, 8K will be a must, new sensors with better DR & sensitivity will flood the market (this has already happened) and ProRes (if not RAW) will be a standard codec in the sub 2000$ (if not less) category. As far as i know (i am not an expert in any way) this design is based on a couple of 5 year old (or more) sensors and i don't think it will be THAT modular and adaptive to newer sensor designs. Correct me if i am wrong on this but i think this project needs massive funding and a group of 10-20 full time developers to keep going, or else it's doomed.

I thought the whole idea is to be adaptive to new sensors etc?

[webrunner5]

21 minutes ago, tweak said:

I thought the whole idea is to be adaptive to new sensors etc?

Yes you are right about that. But I don't see how they are going to keep up with development as fast as the rest of the industry is going. And it is going crazy fast. Non of this open source stuff goes very fast. Linux is a great example of that. Sure it gets better, but not as some rapid pace. Sony seems to be pumping out Sensors faster and faster.

[Phil A]

58 minutes ago, tweak said:

I thought the whole idea is to be adaptive to new sensors etc?

So was the big, original Blackmagic Ursa and that went the way of the dodo with no new sensor ever.

[webrunner5]

54 minutes ago, Phil A said:

So was the big, original Blackmagic Ursa and that went the way of the dodo with no new sensor ever.

Yeah but I have seen them for 2000 bucks or less lately. That is a tempting price for a A cam Cine camera. I like the output from them.

[pathfinder]

2 hours ago, Dimitris Stasinos said:

By the time (and if) this camera is 100% functional, 8K will be a must...

 

I've never met anyone with an 8K monitor. If someone out there is salivating over the idea of trudging through the arduous process of adapting their worklow around 8K, then... well... there's one born every minute they say. I dread to think what the render times are like with 8K, but it must be a downright misery.

[webrunner5]

Japan is broadcasting 8K right now. They have and sell 8K TV's. Apparently most countries are Way behind. I would imagine if you output in 4K doing a lot of Green, Blue screen, VFX, 8K would be a god send. People that buy and use the Red VV 8K camera must be using a 8K monitor. Lot cheaper I bet than a few cameras I suspect.

[Dimitris Stasinos]

10 hours ago, pathfinder said:

 

I've never met anyone with an 8K monitor. If someone out there is salivating over the idea of trudging through the arduous process of adapting their worklow around 8K, then... well... there's one born every minute they say. I dread to think what the render times are like with 8K, but it must be a downright misery.

I am no fan of 8K either at the moment, it's too soon for our systems to handle it. I even wrote 2 articles last year on redshark about how the industry is pushing us to this direction with no reason at all (i mean there is no benefit for us, the reason for them is of course long term profit).

But it will eventually happen and we have to accept this. Of course it will take some time as 4K is not established yet, i am still delivering in Full HD and no client has asked me a 4K export yet.

Anyway, as i said the Axiom camera is an admirable effort but the concept of an adaptive body is not that simple. You can't just swap a camera's sensor with a newer one and expect it to work without serious software development and hardware updates. Even their prototype has a long way until it's fully functional and the specs are getting already obsolete by this year's releases.

 

 

[Danyyyel]

12 hours ago, webrunner5 said:

Japan is broadcasting 8K right now. They have and sell 8K TV's. Apparently most countries are Way behind. I would imagine if you output in 4K doing a lot of Green, Blue screen, VFX, 8K would be a god send. People that buy and use the Red VV 8K camera must be using a 8K monitor. Lot cheaper I bet than a few cameras I suspect.

I am still waiting for 4k next year for the last 5 years, oh wait I am still waiting for 1080p, because 90% of the world is still on 720p and SD. Japan and Korea are some kind of tech lab experiment that never represent the world. In fact 1080p is good enough and in a good sense for any normal viewing distance display for our human brain. Over and above that is really pushing it in terms of diminishing return. it is like moving from a 100 hp car to a 400 hp one to get .2 second better from 0 to 100, now that's for 4k, I don't even know what will 8k bring.

[Kisaha]

36 minutes ago, Danyyyel said:

I am still waiting for 4k next year for the last 5 years, oh wait I am still waiting for 1080p, because 90% of the world is still on 720p and SD. Japan and Korea are some kind of tech lab experiment that never represent the world. In fact 1080p is good enough and in a good sense for any normal viewing distance display for our human brain. Over and above that is really pushing it in terms of diminishing return. it is like moving from a 100 hp car to a 400 hp one to get .2 second better from 0 to 100, now that's for 4k, I don't even know what will 8k bring.

A 400hp car should do the 0-100 at a few seconds, while a 100hp one needs 11-14(depending the weight and other things). It is not a very good example!

[hansel]

Well, on the road you can easily drive 160km/h with 100hp. With 400hp obviously, too. But on a normal viewing situation 4K is already a waste while 8k is simply for show off race car drivers were 99% of humanity just shake their head about this guy in a lambo. It is manly just penis size at this point and everybody knows size is very important and storytelling is completely unnecessary if you can have 8k or a lambo respectively.

[Kisaha]

Yep, I do not even own a 4K tv or monitor, but recently I had to give 4K material to a client for 2 different jobs, so I am buying a 4K monitor/TV and editing PC in 2019. Everyone and their mothers (quite literally) own a 4KnTV these days (there are as low as 300euros here), and younger people want something to watch on their new shiny 4K TVs, so I see demand for 4K videos will rise significantly, and really soon. It is going to be a necessity.

8K TVs are sold here as well, I do not see this technology catching up before 2025, or even 2225! But seriously, 8K is mandatory for VR/360 video, 4K just doesn't have the necessary resolution, so these 2 technologies will be linked I guess. So in the traditional form of film and video 4K will be enough, but in newer aspects of the industry 8K will be needed.

[webrunner5]

There is a Huge difference between even 1080p and 2K let alone what 4K looks like. Saying 4K is a waste of time is crazy. It is beautiful just like HDR 4K is even better. Now is it necessary, well I think so if you are into watching movies. But I have seen little that looks very Filmic, Cinematic on footage that sharp, but like I have said those days are dying. Sharp as heck footage is in, and it is here to stay like it or not. No going back. Beautiful B&W Movies from the late 30's, early 40's are literally going to be a thing of the past. Shame.

[pathfinder]

I'm seriously into watching movies... but for instance I just downloaded some stuff off Youtube in 360p (it can';t be got anywhere else). Because you see, it's not the picture quality that really counts. It's good to have, but real filmmaking is about the story (and a host of other stuff that doesn't depend on resolution).

 

That's what's unfortunate. There's this fanatical obsession over K numbers. And given that AXIOM Beta is about giving creatives more freedom, I wouldn't like to see the effort blighted by reactionary fixation on the idea of keeping up with the Joneses... or Japanese broadcasted TV.

[IronFilm]

On 12/7/2018 at 10:09 AM, pathfinder said:

Getting close

I expect to see this statement posted again in 2020 as well....

[Danyyyel]

20 hours ago, Kisaha said:

Yep, I do not even own a 4K tv or monitor, but recently I had to give 4K material to a client for 2 different jobs, so I am buying a 4K monitor/TV and editing PC in 2019. Everyone and their mothers (quite literally) own a 4KnTV these days (there are as low as 300euros here), and younger people want something to watch on their new shiny 4K TVs, so I see demand for 4K videos will rise significantly, and really soon. It is going to be a necessity.

8K TVs are sold here as well, I do not see this technology catching up before 2025, or even 2225! But seriously, 8K is mandatory for VR/360 video, 4K just doesn't have the necessary resolution, so these 2 technologies will be linked I guess. So in the traditional form of film and video 4K will be enough, but in newer aspects of the industry 8K will be needed.

People are getting 4k TV by default , its not like they really really want it, it is just that you can get a 4k TV for 5-10% more than a 1080p one, or no more 1080p model. In fact if 4k was successful in anyway, there would have been a premium on that, but like 3D, no one cares. The reality is that young people are watching movies on their mobile phone or tablets. We are living the MP3 audio transition but for video. It is really sad for people like us who are a bit passionate about image quality but that's a big trend.

The TV manufacturers and as a lot of other consumer electronic product are experiencing a shrinking market because people just can't see a big difference between 1080p and 4k at normal viewing distance. The only thing that for me would push big sales again would be a cheap tech for much bigger screen size. If you could get 80+ inch screen for 1k etc, then people will go back buying TV. Display size does make a difference in the viewing at least for me.

19 hours ago, webrunner5 said:

There is a Huge difference between even 1080p and 2K let alone what 4K looks like. Saying 4K is a waste of time is crazy. It is beautiful just like HDR 4K is even better. Now is it necessary, well I think so if you are into watching movies. But I have seen little that looks very Filmic, Cinematic on footage that sharp, but like I have said those days are dying. Sharp as heck footage is in, and it is here to stay like it or not. No going back. Beautiful B&W Movies from the late 30's, early 40's are literally going to be a thing of the past. Shame.

Sincerely there is about 100 pixel difference between a 1080p and 2k screen. If you can tell me how there is a huge difference, i am happy to hear that. When I am talking about 1080p, I am not talking about Canon 5d style 1080p which is barely 720p, but true 1080p-2k from camera like the Alexa. In my country most screen are still 1080p-2k and until now I have never seen a pixel on 10 meter wide screen.

[webrunner5]

2 hours ago, Danyyyel said:

People are getting 4k TV by default , its not like they really really want it, it is just that you can get a 4k TV for 5-10% more than a 1080p one, or no more 1080p model. In fact if 4k was successful in anyway, there would have been a premium on that, but like 3D, no one cares. The reality is that young people are watching movies on their mobile phone or tablets. We are living the MP3 audio transition but for video. It is really sad for people like us who are a bit passionate about image quality but that's a big trend.

The TV manufacturers and as a lot of other consumer electronic product are experiencing a shrinking market because people just can't see a big difference between 1080p and 4k at normal viewing distance. The only thing that for me would push big sales again would be a cheap tech for much bigger screen size. If you could get 80+ inch screen for 1k etc, then people will go back buying TV. Display size does make a difference in the viewing at least for me.

Sincerely there is about 100 pixel difference between a 1080p and 2k screen. If you can tell me how there is a huge difference, i am happy to hear that. When I am talking about 1080p, I am not talking about Canon 5d style 1080p which is barely 720p, but true 1080p-2k from camera like the Alexa. In my country most screen are still 1080p-2k and until now I have never seen a pixel on 10 meter wide screen.

I am not talking on a Movie Screen. Yeah I doubt these would be too much difference between 1080p or 2K on a huge movie screen. Hell I haven't been to a movie theater only once in the last 30 years. I have PTSD from the service. I get panic attacks hearing very loud noises. I am talking a computer monitor or a TV.

[mkabi]

I’m going to chime in here...

And, this could be purely anecdotal... but I’m sure many of you guys will be able to relate.

4 hours ago, Danyyyel said:

The reality is that young people are watching movies on their mobile phone or tablets.

I find myself doing this once in a while, but I can’t imagine doing this every single time. I do it in times of convenience (e.g. when I’m on the go; or when someone is already watching something on the television that isn’t as interesting to me; or when I can’t find what I want to watch on TV... etc.). And, whenever possible (if it’s possible), where I have to share what I am watching on my phone... I just mirror my phone screen with the media box that I am using...

I don’t think televisions are a dying breed... especially with streaming services like Netflix, Crave and Hulu around... my wife and I peruse through Netflix when we aren’t busy and the kids are in bed. They have some decent content and I’d rather watch that on our 40in TV than a 5in cell phone.

What I do notice is my reliance in front of a desktop has reduced A LOT.... I would spend hours upon hours on them.... even now... this post is directly from my phone. I only ever touch my desktop for video/photo editing and the rare instances where I need to scan something and/or need the word processor.

@webrunner5 I'm sorry that you have to and/or had to go through that... I can't fathom what you've been through, and I really can't imagine being away from a movie theatre that long. 

Speaking of which, I don't think Movie Theaters are a dying breed either.... those are alive and well, in my opinion - no theater is closing down due to lack of business in my area. In fact, some days - especially on opening night - the popular movies are sold out (at least where I live - and its been like that for years now).