DBounce Posted December 30, 2018 Author Share Posted December 30, 2018 8 hours ago, androidlad said: 1DX II has about 12.7 million phase detection pixels while X-T3 has "only" 2.16 million. Good point! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
liork Posted December 30, 2018 Share Posted December 30, 2018 12 hours ago, DBounce said: Yet many here use crop sensor cameras with little complaints. I’m honestly more concerned with IQ and flexibility in post. So, with your logic, even a full frame camera with a 1" crop is great because some people buy native 1" cameras and don't complain... Each camera with its own format, if you want APS-C crop, you buy a native APS-C camera with native lenses. I you want FF, you buy FF camera. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Django Posted December 30, 2018 Share Posted December 30, 2018 @liork EOS R is a hybrid camera and first & foremost a stills oriented one with a 30MP FF sensor. The body can accept EF & EF-S lenses (first canon dslr/hybrid to do so). It also shoots FF 1080p video & FF 4K Timelapses. Only for 4K video does it apply a 1.74x crop which is close enough to Canon's 1.6x crop on its industry standard Super35 cine cameras. With a native APS-C/M43 camera you cannot get native FF stills or video period. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
liork Posted December 30, 2018 Share Posted December 30, 2018 Like some people say: "IT'S NOT A BUG, IT'S A FEATURE"... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Django Posted December 30, 2018 Share Posted December 30, 2018 Every cam has its limitations but yeah if it's a Canon it's gotta be a "bug" and if you enjoy the cam then you're either a "shill" or an apologist. SMH. Sony cameras overheat, their codecs max out at 100mb with no Intra or 10-bit out options, zombie colors and have poor weather sealing. Nikon Z has no internal log & average to poor AF system. XT3 has no IBIS, no FF stills & poor battery life. GH5 poor low light, bad AF, small sensor..etc. No camera is perfect, pick your weapon(s) of choice and make the most out of it. Dustin and joshhr 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
liork Posted December 30, 2018 Share Posted December 30, 2018 This is not a battle between brands. If a camera has a flaw, then it has a flaw. Its funny how a brand followers try their best effort to explain in the name of the company, why this flaw is not a flow. "APS-C video is good enough", so buy APS-C... "Only for 4K video does it apply a 1.74x crop". Are you serious? I have been shooting only 4K in the last 2-3 years. "Only"... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Django Posted December 30, 2018 Share Posted December 30, 2018 So what? EOS R shoots 4K.. just not FF 4K. I always tend to shoot video in S35 mode anyways on my FF Sony cams. Most pros have been shooting S35 for over a decade. They don't really care that much if 4K has a similar crop. Many still shoot/deliver/broadcast/stream in FHD. That said they may not want to compromise with M43/APSC for their photography needs. In that regard it's ok for them to have a hybrid camera that shoots 30MP FF stills and doubles as a FHD FF/ 4K crop sensor video B-cam. The only serious flaw I see with EOS R is RS. YMMV. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DBounce Posted December 30, 2018 Author Share Posted December 30, 2018 1 hour ago, liork said: This is not a battle between brands. If a camera has a flaw, then it has a flaw. Its funny how a brand followers try their best effort to explain in the name of the company, why this flaw is not a flow. "APS-C video is good enough", so buy APS-C... "Only for 4K video does it apply a 1.74x crop". Are you serious? I have been shooting only 4K in the last 2-3 years. "Only"... I'm going to share some insight with you. After using the Z6 some more... under very controlled conditions, I can reveal the following: when it nails the shot, if you are close to the subject... within two or three feet, and if you are shooting at f1.8... to let the light in, it can be distracting. Why? Because in all honesty, the DOF is just too shallow. So much so that the entire face of a subject cannot be in focus. The solution to this is to stop down. But this means sacrificing the blurred backgrounds and giving up any lowlight advantage that may have been gained by shooting full frame. While shallow DOF works for still images, when used in situations where the subject is moving it quickly becomes a distraction. It makes it hard to draw the viewers attention to the subject matter, as the focus is just too narrow. You end up directing their view to eyelash vs eye, as opposed to face vs hand. I find myself stopping down to F4 to kill the effect. But then you can say bye bye to any lowlight advantages. I think there is a reason that the vast majority of productions are shot with S35. Let's not kid ourselves into thinking it's because these production houses are somehow "unaware" of full frame... or that they could not afford to shoot full frame. The reason they don't shoot full frame is because they don't want to... plain and simple. They understand that the DOF is too distracting... so it hurts the story... and everything is supposed to support the story. That is after-all the whole point. The production only exist to tell the story. They also know that any field of view advantage of shooting full frame is irrelevant if they are shooting with anamorphic lenses... which is always an option when you have a real budget. I'm going to post a quick video that is an attempt at some cinematic shots... again comparing the Z6 to the 1DXMk2. It was not my intention to demonstrate the difference that the shallower DOF produces, and truthfully, at first I didn't notice it. I only saw the bokeh. But once you see it... you just can't unsee it. Like many here I'm trying to learn and understand the art of story telling. So this has been very enlightening for me. While I believe FF may have its place for use in cinema, I suspect it's not a look that most are going to embrace as their mainstay. Emanuel, photographer-at-large and Django 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebrothersthre3 Posted December 30, 2018 Share Posted December 30, 2018 You could use a wider lens to get a longer DOF while staying at 1.8 for low light. I've found full frame helpful when getting wider shots and still wanting DOF. For close ups DOF is easy even on a m43 sensor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DBounce Posted December 30, 2018 Author Share Posted December 30, 2018 31 minutes ago, thebrothersthre3 said: You could use a wider lens to get a longer DOF while staying at 1.8 for low light. I've found full frame helpful when getting wider shots and still wanting DOF. For close ups DOF is easy even on a m43 sensor. Wider lenses tend to distort. Not great for close ups unless that look is intended to tell the audience something about the character or situation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebrothersthre3 Posted December 30, 2018 Share Posted December 30, 2018 32 minutes ago, DBounce said: Wider lenses tend to distort. Not great for close ups unless that look is intended to tell the audience something about the character or situation. Great movie^ What lens were you using btw? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
liork Posted December 30, 2018 Share Posted December 30, 2018 Well.... https://variety.com/2015/artisans/production/the-revenant-cinematography-emmanuel-lubezki-1201661435/ 37 minutes ago, DBounce said: Wider lenses tend to distort. Not great for close ups unless that look is intended to tell the audience something about the character or situation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DBounce Posted December 30, 2018 Author Share Posted December 30, 2018 39 minutes ago, liork said: Well.... https://variety.com/2015/artisans/production/the-revenant-cinematography-emmanuel-lubezki-1201661435/ Well what? They give reasons for their specific choice to shoot with the Alexa 65 and wide lenses. And the choice made news, because it was unusual. Does this somehow invalidate the fact the virtually everything is shot on S35? Ful frame is a specialized look... S35 is the industry standard. I'd post a link to all the movies shot on S35, but I'm not trying to break the site with information overload. 54 minutes ago, thebrothersthre3 said: Great movie^ What lens were you using btw? Nikkor 50mm f1.8 S Z and Canon 50mm f1.2 L. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DBounce Posted December 30, 2018 Author Share Posted December 30, 2018 Ok here it is, short and sweet. In this test I really was more interested in the versatility of the footage in post. But as I reviewed the footage the DOF difference became quite apparent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebrothersthre3 Posted December 30, 2018 Share Posted December 30, 2018 2 hours ago, DBounce said: Well what? They give reasons for their specific choice to shoot with the Alexa 65 and wide lenses. And the choice made news, because it was unusual. Does this somehow invalidate the fact the virtually everything is shot on S35? Ful frame is a specialized look... S35 is the industry standard. I'd post a link to all the movies shot on S35, but I'm not trying to break the site with information overload. Nikkor 50mm f1.8 S Z and Canon 50mm f1.2 L. You could have got away with something a lot wider imo without looking weird. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snowbro Posted December 30, 2018 Share Posted December 30, 2018 Pretty sure I have read Canons cine cameras in S35 are around 1.45-1.5x crop, not 1.6x. 1.6x is their apsc crop. So that is a good difference from 1.75x. I loved my 16mm turning into about 30mm on the eos r lol. How the hell do you get a wide shot on that camera? Fisheye with no NDs? ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DBounce Posted December 31, 2018 Author Share Posted December 31, 2018 3 hours ago, thebrothersthre3 said: You could have got away with something a lot wider imo without looking weird. IMO, 24mm is probably fine for most use if your subject is not too near the edges. Usually, I favor close-ups and medium wide rather than super or ulta-wide shots, limiting those to establishing shots. I really like the compression created by fast tele lenses like the Sigma 135mm F1.8. 3 hours ago, Snowbro said: Pretty sure I have read Canons cine cameras in S35 are around 1.45-1.5x crop, not 1.6x. 1.6x is their apsc crop. So that is a good difference from 1.75x. I loved my 16mm turning into about 30mm on the eos r lol. How the hell do you get a wide shot on that camera? Fisheye with no NDs? ? The C200 is 1.5x crop vs EOS R with a 1.7X crop (not 1.75) vs 1DXMK2 with a crop of 1.3x. Yes, it's a cropped sensor, but I used the GH5 and GH5S without complaint. Other than when using the OG BM Pocket with it's S16 sensor, I can't recall being desperate for more FOV. Would I have preferred a true S35 sensor? Heck yes, but it is hardly the end of the world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebrothersthre3 Posted December 31, 2018 Share Posted December 31, 2018 13 minutes ago, DBounce said: IMO, 24mm is probably fine for most use if your subject is not too near the edges. Usually, I favor close-ups and medium wide rather than super or ulta-wide shots, limiting those to establishing shots. I really like the compression created by fast tele lenses like the Sigma 135mm F1.8. The C200 is 1.5x crop vs EOS R with a 1.7X crop (not 1.75) vs 1DXMK2 with a crop of 1.3x. Yes, it's a cropped sensor, but I used the GH5 and GH5S without complaint. Other than when using the OG BM Pocket with it's S16 sensor, I can't recall being desperate for more FOV. Would I have preferred a true S35 sensor? Heck yes, but it is hardly the end of the world. Focal reducers help. GH5S gets close to full frame with one. Its too bad the EOS R couldn't pull off a 1.3 crop. I guess we gotta keep in mind its their first mirrorless entry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DBounce Posted December 31, 2018 Author Share Posted December 31, 2018 1 minute ago, thebrothersthre3 said: Focal reducers help. GH5S gets close to full frame with one. Its too bad the EOS R couldn't pull off a 1.3 crop. I guess we gotta keep in mind its their first mirrorless entry. Strangely enough, I have a MBSB, and almost never used it with my GH5 series cameras. It just made them too large and ruined the experience for me... YMMV. That said, I am certain there will be SB's for EOS R. Canon always... and I do mean always, holds back something. But like it or not, they nonetheless do make solid cameras. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
androidlad Posted December 31, 2018 Share Posted December 31, 2018 34 minutes ago, DBounce said: Strangely enough, I have a MBSB, and almost never used it with my GH5 series cameras. It just made them too large and ruined the experience for me... YMMV. That said, I am certain there will be SB's for EOS R. Canon always... and I do mean always, holds back something. But like it or not, they nonetheless do make solid cameras. Speedboosters for EOS R have already arrived: https://***URL removed***/news/2829581749/kipon-adds-nikon-z-and-canon-r-mounts-to-medium-format-lens-adapter-range Baveyes Hasselblad V-EOS R 0.7x Baveyes MAMIYA645-EOS R 0.7x Baveyes Pentax67-EOS R 0.7x Baveyes Pentax645-EOS R 0.7x However they are NOT designed for the 4K video crop though, they cover full frame sensor. A SB just for 4K video is extremely unlikely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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