Want gimbal free stabilized recording

[Abbas Ali]

Hello everyone. New to the forum.

I was looking for a camera that can help record smooth video for product shots without the need for a gimbal- shots like panning left to right or moving 180 degrees around.

I mostly record videos about new phones for my tech website and would love to get some of the effects that TheVerge or MKBHD do with camera panning shots. They use robots and such so I understand I won't be able to get that great of an effect but I would like to get something similar just using my )not so shaky) hands. 

The Panasonic GX85 seems to be a recommended camera and that's how I found this forum. It's an older model but price is pretty good (getting it for about $450) - is that still the best camera to get for great stabilized video and around that much budget?

Would highly appreciate your help on this to make a better purchasing decision.

[webrunner5]

Most people on here go for the G85 over the GX85. Just a better overall camera with Cinelike D, and the big thing is the GX85 does not have a mike input. But the G85 is a bit more expensive. Good article below explaining the main differences. But I think there is a hack out that can do Cinelike D on the GX85? Olympus seems to have the best IBIS of anyone. But they mostly are not so hot on the video side. The original EM1 is pretty amazing for its age and price but only a nothing special 1080p. But to get the best out of either the Panasonic or Olympus you are going to have to get one of the higher end lenses that play nice with the body. There is Always a catch LoL.

https://mirrorlesscomparison.com/preview/panasonic-g85-vs-gx85/

[kye]

I shoot hand-held with my GH5 and it does a great job but it's not perfect.

It's important to realise that having steady hands is more important than the IBIS or OIS.  There are many videos giving techniques for how to get steady hand-held shots - three points of contact, use the camera strap, control your breathing, if you're walking then learning how to do the ninja walk, etc etc etc.

The better way to get a steady camera is to use some kind of rig.  A shoulder-rig, a monopod, a slider or a tripod.  I am perhaps the most ardent hand-held shooter on this forum because I shoot in situations where I have no control over what is going on, it situations where tripods are banned, professional shooting is banned, and I have to carry a camera all day and so I can't physically carry a gimbal as it's too heavy.  All that said, if you're shooting product shots then I can't imagine how you couldn't just use a tripod or a slider.  Maybe I'm missing something.

If it's a matter of budget then there are DIY sliders and things that you can make literally for free, and give 100% results.

It's also worth saying that gimbals don't give completely stabilised recording.  They don't stop the camera from moving up/down/left/right/forwards/backwards, so if you've got a shot with any foreground/background separation then the best gimbal in the world will still have shaky camera movement visible.  Just look at people walking with a gimbal and watch the camera bob up and down as they walk...

[webrunner5]

Good advice. Plus a GX85 type camera is pretty light, and light cameras do not do very well for stabilization. 20 pound ENG cameras have no stabilization and they look almost perfect. But they are shoulder mounted and have more contact points like @kye mentioned.  Nobody ever said video was easy, or cheap. But with skill and practice you can get about anything done with anything.

[Abbas Ali]

53 minutes ago, kye said:

I shoot hand-held with my GH5 and it does a great job but it's not perfect.

It's important to realise that having steady hands is more important than the IBIS or OIS.  There are many videos giving techniques for how to get steady hand-held shots - three points of contact, use the camera strap, control your breathing, if you're walking then learning how to do the ninja walk, etc etc etc.

The better way to get a steady camera is to use some kind of rig.  A shoulder-rig, a monopod, a slider or a tripod.  I am perhaps the most ardent hand-held shooter on this forum because I shoot in situations where I have no control over what is going on, it situations where tripods are banned, professional shooting is banned, and I have to carry a camera all day and so I can't physically carry a gimbal as it's too heavy.  All that said, if you're shooting product shots then I can't imagine how you couldn't just use a tripod or a slider.  Maybe I'm missing something.

If it's a matter of budget then there are DIY sliders and things that you can make literally for free, and give 100% results.

It's also worth saying that gimbals don't give completely stabilised recording.  They don't stop the camera from moving up/down/left/right/forwards/backwards, so if you've got a shot with any foreground/background separation then the best gimbal in the world will still have shaky camera movement visible.  Just look at people walking with a gimbal and watch the camera bob up and down as they walk...

Thanks for your valuable feedback. I agree with you on gimbals- I have a DJI Osmo Mobile and recently got the Osmo Pocket and while they're great for stabilizing in fast moving scenarios or when the object you're shooting is far, they don't handle nearby, objects with slow hand movements that well- I can easily see the wobble/wave in the video. That's the reason I'm not much interested in a gimbal as it's not for the type of work I want it for,

The reason I would like to get something more portable is because I tend to travel once a month for such events and ideally, would love to just have my camera with me and maybe an extendable monopod that doesn't take much space or will weigh me down. But then, won't the monopod restrict me from getting a good shot panning around the product or closing in on it, or a reveal shot, etc.?

4K would be nice to have but a higher frame rate at 1080p is a requirement. Someone where I live is selling a G85 with 14-42 lens and a Zhiyun Gimbal Stabilizer for $800 in total. On the other hand, I can get the GX85 with a 12-32 lens for about half that much. Is the G85 that much better?

[Snowbro]

I mean.. technically you could get a gopro hero 7 for that price lol

[Abbas Ali]

3 minutes ago, Snowbro said:

I mean.. technically you could get a gopro hero 7 for that price lol

I actually thought about that but NOT a fan of the fisheye lens!

[Snowbro]

1 hour ago, Abbas Ali said:

I actually thought about that but NOT a fan of the fisheye lens!

I agree. You can actually do some decent things for the price with the osmo pocket if you feed it good light. For what you want to do, I would probably get a slider & good monopod like someone mentioned. 100% handheld with the best stabilization on the market will still not look how you want most likely. 

[BTM_Pix]

If it is purely for product shots then I think you might want to consider a couple of cheap and cheerful non-camera items that might get you where you need to be irrespective of the particular camera that you shoot with.

First up if you were looking for 360 views of the product would be a simple motorised turntable such as this one. There are numerous ones like this on Amazon for under £30.

If you wanted to go for something to keep the product still but move the camera around it then you might want to consider the GripGear MovieMaker 2 set.

It is a combination of motorised multi-speed slider and lifter, panning head and skate dolly with remote control that can support up to 750g cameras and is usually available for just over £100.

The versatility it offers is great and as long as you aren't expecting to put heavy loads on it then it performs really well and is certainly a lot of bang for the buck.

This is a video of it against the five times more expensive Edelkrone unit and whilst it is obviously not as sophisticated it doesn't disgrace itself in terms of performance.

If you wanted just the motorised skater dolly part of the GripGear then for around £50 you might consider the newer versions of the Yelangu/Andoer L4. 

The original version was quite a neat little product but the new version has the advantage of remote control and adjustable speed.

As with the GripGear dolly you adjust the axles to control the arc that it travels on around the product but you can also straighten them to do a straight line and can also mount it on a regular slider.

 

As I say, with those options, the question of which camera to choose becomes less of an issue as they will enable you to get product shots with nice production values even from a smartphone.

If I was looking for a camera to go with these purely for product photography then I think I might be inclined to go for something like a Panasonic LX100 as it is the right sort of size/weight to best utilise them, has a great built in lens and whilst it lacks IBIS, its stabilisation will be more than adequate as it is mounted on the slider/dolly. It can also do 60fps in 1080 which will be useful when shooting longer shots of smaller objects etc

It can also of course be remote controlled (including the zoom) from the Panasonic app which will be a boon for setup.

Now that the mark II of the LX100 is out, the original version is popping up used at around £300 so with something like that and the GripGear set you are getting a lot of capability for £400.

[Abbas Ali]

4 minutes ago, BTM_Pix said:

If it is just for product shots then I think you might want to consider a couple of cheap and cheerful non-camera items that might get you where you need to be irrespective of the particular that you shoot with.

First up if you were looking for 360 views of the product would be a simple motorised turntable such as this one. There are numerous ones like this on Amazon for under £30.

If you wanted to go for something to keep the product still but move the camera around it then you might want to consider the GripGear MovieMaker 2 set.

It is a combination of motorised multi-speed slider and lifter, panning head and skate dolly with remote control that can support up to 750g cameras and is usually available for just over £100.

The versatility it offers is great and as long as you aren't expecting to put heavy loads on it then it performs really well and is certainly a lot of bang for the buck.

This is a video of it against the five times more expensive Edelkrone unit and whilst it is obviously not as sophisticated it doesn't disgrace itself in terms of performance.

If you wanted just the motorised skater dolly part of the GripGear then for around £50 you might consider the newer versions of the Yelangu/Andoer L4. 

The original version was quite a neat little product but the new version has the advantage of remote control and adjustable speed.

As with the GripGear dolly you adjust the axles to control the arc that it travels on around the product but you can also straighten them to do a straight line and can also mount it on a regular slider.

 

As I say, with those options, the question of which camera to choose becomes less of an issue as they will enable you to get product shots with nice production values even from a smartphone.

If I was looking for a camera to go with these purely for product photography then I think I might be inclined to go for something like a Panasonic LX100 as it is the right sort of size/weight to best utilise them, has a great built in lens and whilst it lacks IBIS, its stabilisation will be more than adequate as it is mounted on the slider/dolly. It can also do 60fps in 1080 which will be useful when shooting longer shots of smaller objects etc

It can also of course be remote controlled (including the zoom) from the Panasonic app which will be a boon for setup.

Now that the mark II of the LX100 is out, the original version is popping up used at around £300 so with something like that and the GripGear set you are getting a lot of capability for £400.

Thanks- this set looks amazing. I'll look it up.

Funny you mention LX100 as that's what I've been using for the past 3 years and I love it but there's not much stabilization. The issue is when I travel and have limited capacity to take and set things up. That's the reason I'd prefer a camera that can negate the shake.

[BTM_Pix]

1 minute ago, Abbas Ali said:

Thanks- this set looks amazing. I'll look it up.

Funny you mention LX100 as that's what I've been using for the past 3 years and I love it but there's not much stabilization. The issue is when I travel and have limited capacity to take and set things up. That's the reason I'd prefer a camera that can negate the shake.

The GripGear track breaks down into two pieces for transport and the head detaches and weighs hardly anything so its definitely travel friendly.

I have an obvious fondness for the GX80/85 and it would definitely be the logical step for you to move to in order to get IBIS but as good as the IBIS is on it, I still think you would have the same issue in trying to pull off the sort of shots that you are after handheld.  I'd also say that you are in for a rude awakening trying to get a lens for it to match the utility of the one that you are used to on the LX100  

I think if you tried to do the shots you are after purely by changing the camera but without adding the additional support you'd end up with way more cost (especially as you already own the LX100 ), more weight, more bulk (as you'd need a few lenses to match the LX100's internal one) for a minimal amount of improvement.

The EOSHD forum party line on this of course would be to get all of the support gear AND the new camera as we do love spending other people's money !

Maybe the compromise solution would be to just get the Yelangu/Andoer dolly and make use of what you have where you are (table top or even a piece of cardboard) to provide the flat surface for it to work on as the dolly can literally fit in your pocket?

[Marcio Kabke Pinheiro]

About these little motorized dollies, another option is the Kingjoy PPL 06s; it does not have the remote control of the Andoer L4, but have more speed options. Have one, but did not had time to test it properly:

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Kingjoy-PPL-06S-Mini-Motorized-Electric-Track-Slider-Motor-Dolly-Truck-3-Wheel-Car-Slider-for/32828124306.html?spm=2114.search0104.3.21.fec846ca3aa6p3&ws_ab_test=searchweb0_0,searchweb201602_3_10065_10068_10547_319_5730915_317_10548_10696_453_10084_454_10083_10618_10307_538_537_536_5729815_10059_10884_10887_100031_321_322_10103,searchweb201603_51,ppcSwitch_0&algo_expid=d3047a79-e8f3-400c-9b8a-3ab04951e85c-3&algo_pvid=d3047a79-e8f3-400c-9b8a-3ab04951e85c&transAbTest=ae803_3

[webrunner5]

6 hours ago, Abbas Ali said:

I actually thought about that but NOT a fan of the fisheye lens!

They make aftermarket lenses for GoPro's that are not fisheye.

https://www.peauproductions.com/collections/gopro-hero-7-6-5-lenses

I have become a pretty big fan of all these newer, cheaper cameras as of late for 2 reasons. One, I don't have much money right now, and Two, the tech that is out now has narrowed the playing field a heck of a lot compared to even just a year ago.

The new iPhones, some other Smartphones, the Hero 7 GoPro, the Osmo Pocket, the Canon EOS M with ML, the new Canon M50 with a speedbooster on it, the newer Drones, on and on. Sure they aren't a Arri Alexa, but for causal stuff, even half serious stuff they are pretty damn good. And they can be a great B camera for the big boy stuff. Small, portable, stealth stuff is really pretty nice to have in this day and age. And I kind of like the challenge of getting sort of Pro looking footage out of stuff like that to be honest. And it is becoming not that hard to do that now. Amazing stuff out now for hardly any money new or used.

[webrunner5]

Speaking of small, cheap stuff. This is a pretty neat video, at least the first half of it. Sometimes that wide lens is a Plus.

 

 

[Abbas Ali]

7 minutes ago, webrunner5 said:

Speaking of small, cheap stuff. This is a pretty neat video, at least the first half of it. Sometimes that wide lens is a Plus.

 

 

This is awesome!

[kye]

On 12/31/2018 at 12:13 PM, Abbas Ali said:

Thanks for your valuable feedback. I agree with you on gimbals- I have a DJI Osmo Mobile and recently got the Osmo Pocket and while they're great for stabilizing in fast moving scenarios or when the object you're shooting is far, they don't handle nearby, objects with slow hand movements that well- I can easily see the wobble/wave in the video. That's the reason I'm not much interested in a gimbal as it's not for the type of work I want it for,

The reason I would like to get something more portable is because I tend to travel once a month for such events and ideally, would love to just have my camera with me and maybe an extendable monopod that doesn't take much space or will weigh me down. But then, won't the monopod restrict me from getting a good shot panning around the product or closing in on it, or a reveal shot, etc.?

4K would be nice to have but a higher frame rate at 1080p is a requirement. Someone where I live is selling a G85 with 14-42 lens and a Zhiyun Gimbal Stabilizer for $800 in total. On the other hand, I can get the GX85 with a 12-32 lens for about half that much. Is the G85 that much better?

Let's be clear about our terminology.  

When we talk about panning, tilting, or rolling shots, we are talking about shots where the camera stays in the same place but rotates.  Eg, a panning shot is where the camera starts by looking left, and then rotates to point to the right.  These shots are best accomplished with a tripod where the camera will be held still and the fluid head will provide a smooth rotation.  

When we talk about dolly shots or crane shots, we are talking about the camera physically moving, and it may or may not be rotating at the same time.  These shots have that great parallax effect where the foreground moves faster than the background and you can do reveals and create nice depth.  These are created by sliders, camera cranes, and dollys.

If you want to up your production value, then the typical setup is a tripod and a slider.  The tripod gives you flexibility to position the camera and get the right angles, and then by attaching the slider to the top of the tripod you can get movement that will be steady without it bouncing around or whatever.  If you mount the slider left-right then you get sideways sliding shots, if you mount it forwards-backwards you can get push-in or pull-out shots, and if you mount it so it's got some up-down travel then you can get some crane-style shots.  
Some sliders have a wheel to control the movement, some have a flywheel, and some are motorised, and these are all mechanisms to try and smooth the speed of travel.  What this setup will not give you is stabilised rotation.  If you mount a fluid-head between the slider and the camera then you can move the camera on the slider and also pan/tilt the camera at the same time, but this requires skill and a steady hand.

Monopods can offer panning and tilting shots, and can also do push-ins or pull-outs if you have a fluid-head and a steady hand.

Also worth mentioning is table-top devices that give you either a sliding action, or a combination of sliding and panning, so you can go around a product.  These are covered in the video previously posted by @BTM_Pix which I've quoted below.

Your next step is to be clear about what you want: is it to move the camera? is it to rotate the camera?  if you want a combination of those moves, then which combinations do you want?  Only then can you think about what options are available and what you should get.  

These things are typical of film-making in the sense that: they add production value, you get the quality level you pay for, and the more flexible the setup the bigger and heavier it is and the longer it takes to setup and pack-down.

On 12/31/2018 at 7:22 PM, BTM_Pix said:

If it is purely for product shots then I think you might want to consider a couple of cheap and cheerful non-camera items that might get you where you need to be irrespective of the particular camera that you shoot with.

First up if you were looking for 360 views of the product would be a simple motorised turntable such as this one. There are numerous ones like this on Amazon for under £30.

If you wanted to go for something to keep the product still but move the camera around it then you might want to consider the GripGear MovieMaker 2 set.

It is a combination of motorised multi-speed slider and lifter, panning head and skate dolly with remote control that can support up to 750g cameras and is usually available for just over £100.

The versatility it offers is great and as long as you aren't expecting to put heavy loads on it then it performs really well and is certainly a lot of bang for the buck.

This is a video of it against the five times more expensive Edelkrone unit and whilst it is obviously not as sophisticated it doesn't disgrace itself in terms of performance.

If you wanted just the motorised skater dolly part of the GripGear then for around £50 you might consider the newer versions of the Yelangu/Andoer L4. 

The original version was quite a neat little product but the new version has the advantage of remote control and adjustable speed.

As with the GripGear dolly you adjust the axles to control the arc that it travels on around the product but you can also straighten them to do a straight line and can also mount it on a regular slider.

 

As I say, with those options, the question of which camera to choose becomes less of an issue as they will enable you to get product shots with nice production values even from a smartphone.

If I was looking for a camera to go with these purely for product photography then I think I might be inclined to go for something like a Panasonic LX100 as it is the right sort of size/weight to best utilise them, has a great built in lens and whilst it lacks IBIS, its stabilisation will be more than adequate as it is mounted on the slider/dolly. It can also do 60fps in 1080 which will be useful when shooting longer shots of smaller objects etc

It can also of course be remote controlled (including the zoom) from the Panasonic app which will be a boon for setup.

Now that the mark II of the LX100 is out, the original version is popping up used at around £300 so with something like that and the GripGear set you are getting a lot of capability for £400.

 

[Abbas Ali]

Thanks again for your valuable insights @kye - I've went ahead and ordered the GX85- newegg had it with the 12-32 lens for around $400 which is not a LOT of money in case it doesn't work out and I could probably sell it for a little less.

I have fairly steady hands and with a back that goes around the neck, I'm hoping I could capture just using my hands. I've also ordered the Yelangu L4 that @BTM_Pix has posted. If it has steady wheels, I should be able to get some good rotating and slide shots. All of the gear should (hopefully) arrive in two weeks!

[kye]

23 minutes ago, Abbas Ali said:

Thanks again for your valuable insights @kye - I've went ahead and ordered the GX85- newegg had it with the 12-32 lens for around $400 which is not a LOT of money in case it doesn't work out and I could probably sell it for a little less.

I have fairly steady hands and with a back that goes around the neck, I'm hoping I could capture just using my hands. I've also ordered the Yelangu L4 that @BTM_Pix has posted. If it has steady wheels, I should be able to get some good rotating and slide shots. All of the gear should (hopefully) arrive in two weeks!

Cool!  Let us know how you go when you've had a chance to test it all