From 6d to GH3, is it worth it?

[canonlyme]

5 minutes ago, TheRealOG said:

"I hate that F ing video GH3 or not LoL." is a great statement. It is not a not a critique of the video itself, but a comment on the GH3 itself. You can use any tool that you want to create your work. Use a t2i, an arri, a bowlex, a 5Dmkii with magic lantern... The video was created in 2014, which at the time the GH3 was cutting  edge. 4k was not accessible to the masses. I own a canon 80D and owned a c100, and they are my favorite cameras. I have also owned the latest cameras, but I stick with the 80D because I enjoy it. It isn't any better than the GH3. I'm not turning up my nose at that video. Take your blinders off mate. I've been doing video work for a long time, proving myself to a stranger is a zero sum game.

 

Your comment summed up: Talking about the way you discuss, not about the video, or what I did not like about the way you act here. Do you have your own opinion or do you just hang on someone elses blank statement? I do not ask you to show off your skills (in fact the original post), but there is a way to communicate that makes it seem like your are not actually confident, but the opposite. When you are on the table talking about things you like about a movie (let this be our table), the person starting to say, I fking hate this video, is usually not just having an opinion but often in need to reeveluate their own position, in this case by you giving credit to a blank disrespectful statement rather than detailled critique and description of taste.

[TheRealOG]

LOLLLLLLL. I see what you mean now. I thought the original statement said "I f'ing hate the GH3 video". You're talking about the merits of the video, I was discussing the actual GH3 as a tool. The video is great and is cutting edge. It was ahead of it's time, especially since everyone has copied that style of narrative in their travel video. It looks like a template for current travel videos, swish pans included. The storytelling is good and so is the cinematography and editing! Sorry if I misunderstood your original comment!

[webrunner5]

On 1/19/2019 at 11:19 AM, canonlyme said:

This is some of the bullshit you only read in online forums. If you say something like that, is is only because you are justifying paying more for the g85 over the gx80. The gx80 has equivalent 4k to the g85. That is what matters. If you really think that they process the image differently in fhd, then give me an official enginnering source or make that judgment over your own footage, do not just reference another test because you are lazy to do your own.

I don't wanna be mean but there has been some junk written in this thread about high iso and soft footage of the gx80.
 If you are gonna use iso higher iso than 1000 with a m43 camera, you are already doing something wrong. Without loss of IQ, you are gonna use fast lenses or lighting to shoot at the right light. 

 

And your opening line in this reply is with respect? The second paragraph is also, hmm, maybe my other eye is blind also? And then you argue with Mercer about the IBIS being the same, well it's not, the G85 has IBIS II. It's a newer version in a more expensive camera. He has had both also. I will take his word it's worse. He who is without sin sort of applies here..

[canonlyme]

13 minutes ago, webrunner5 said:

And your opening line in this reply is with respect? The second paragraph is also, hmm, maybe my other eye is blind also? And then you argue with Mercer about the IBIS being the same, well it's not, the G85 has IBIS II. It's a newer version in a more expensive camera. He has had both also. I will take his word it's worse. He who is without sin sort of applies here..

Of course this is black and white, throwing around arguments, mister, you did not further your opinion or talk about the content of my message at all. If you think that weight does not affect IBIS, 400g to 700g in terms of microshakes, fair enough. I have a rig including handles so I am sure my stabilization works perfect with IBIS because I am giving enough weight to eliminate microshakes. I have never heard about the "IBIS II" you talk about and I do not think that Panasonic marketed this until you prove it different. 

[webrunner5]

30 minutes ago, canonlyme said:

Of course this is black and white, throwing around arguments, mister, you did not further your opinion or talk about the content of my message at all. If you think that weight does not affect IBIS, 400g to 700g in terms of microshakes, fair enough. I have a rig including handles so I am sure my stabilization works perfect with IBIS because I am giving enough weight to eliminate microshakes. I have never heard about the "IBIS II" you talk about and I do not think that Panasonic marketed this until you prove it different. 

Right down where it says compared to it's Peers.

https://***URL removed***/reviews/panasonic-lumix-dmc-g85-g80

And in this article also below the Beer Bottle picture. IBIS 2 they are calling it.

https://www.cameralabs.com/panasonic-lumix-g80-g85-review/

 

 

[thebrothersthre3]

27 minutes ago, canonlyme said:

Of course this is black and white, throwing around arguments, mister, you did not further your opinion or talk about the content of my message at all. If you think that weight does not affect IBIS, 400g to 700g in terms of microshakes, fair enough. I have a rig including handles so I am sure my stabilization works perfect with IBIS because I am giving enough weight to eliminate microshakes. I have never heard about the "IBIS II" you talk about and I do not think that Panasonic marketed this until you prove it different. 

Bro I agree with a lot of what you said on the GH3 and GX85. It is without a doubt a great little camera and for some the features you'd get with a G85 or GH5 would not be worth the cost. 

However I don't think coming on here and calling other people's opinions bullshit is very respectful or demanding people present video comparisons made by them after the presented perfectly legitimate 3rd party sources. Just sayin...

[kye]

6 hours ago, canonlyme said:

Guys, I do not know if you know the rules about open discussion, but it is said that you express your opinion without respect. Having an opinion is not about winning, this is a forum not a fight. Your opinion is not more credible because you have had more commens or likes in this forum, I am having my discussions not just in this forum, but in real life, family, cafe's and student classes. 

saying: your comment wins, I find this a very ungrown way to lead discussions- and i am young. The video is of a craft that has at that time won a video arthouse price in vimeo, we are not judging things here by the means of a filmmaker, but most people here are videomakers. This is a video that is so good, that just because it is hectic, does not ask to be hated. I get the feeling your strong espression of "fking hate" does not only come from dislike, but maybe also fear. Is this something you can easily recreate, making so many different shots, or is this also something that is overwhelming you through the quality of images that you can achieve? youtube allows you to play everything at speed 0,25, an easy fix not to cause any seizures. Have you watched lord of the rings, do you fking hate one of the most iconic movie scenes by hitchcock in psycho, cut way under 1 second in average? 

The sounddesign of this video is also very high, is sound something that you do not care about? About the grading, what you say makes it seem that you hate coen brothers movies and most movies since the 2000's except arthouse, as this is a standard complementary grade of colors, which has been used by painters. 

Feel free to clear me up about your opinion, I am interested in discussing this with you. But I have seen ignorance in many parts of this forum, so it would not surpise me if not. The ratio here is : talking about your favourite lens < creating something yourself. I am making a thesis that you are not a better filmmaker than allesandri, and you would not be able to create such movie with a gh3 - prove me wrong.

This board is a little more hip-and-shoulder than other places, so strong opinions are kind of the norm here.  They do spark disagreements sometimes too.  However, this forum has been through a number of discussions about the merits of free-speech vs political correctness and (IMHO) the general tone of those conversations was that open and honest opinions were more valuable than keeping nice with everyone.  Be that for better or worse!

In terms of the style of that video, it is a very strong style of editing, one which we know the internet took up heavily and is now a cliche, and for many without much talent is a crutch and people churn out videos with impressive transitions instead of making useful content.

You may also not be aware, but many of the people on here are older, who came from broadcast or ENG where the bells and whistles weren't even available.  I don't know how young you are, but there is a huge range of tastes, much moreso than the 20-something "professionals" who think that The Matrix is classic cinema, and haven't watched a foreign or B&W film in their lives.

Besides, @webrunner5 is just grumpy sometimes

[webrunner5]

LoL.

[ShaunC]

Weren't we talking about some old, cheap cameras? 

I think "Kangaroo" made his or her purchase. Everything else ... madness.  

[canonlyme]

On 1/22/2019 at 11:13 PM, webrunner5 said:

Right down where it says compared to it's Peers.

https://***URL removed***/reviews/panasonic-lumix-dmc-g85-g80

And in this article also below the Beer Bottle picture. IBIS 2 they are calling it.

https://www.cameralabs.com/panasonic-lumix-g80-g85-review/

 

 

I did a little search as well and from what I found out there is no IBIS 2, but dual I.S two, that is only supported with certain lenses.

 

I am looking at the official panasonic support site, so you will have a hard time proving me wrong with other sources.

https://panasonic.jp/dc/lens/dual_is.html

By logic, this would mean dual i.s. 2 is a question about the lens and firmware of the body , but not the I.S of the body itself. So this has zero relevance when not using pana lenses and with the same weight, I.S should be the same on the gx80 and g85. 

[mercer]

Idk about Dual IS Two but I do know the IBIS on the GX85 required me to use the digital IS to get the same level of steadiness that I was getting with just sensor IBIS with the G85.

I guess one could argue that I’ve been shooting more handheld between the two tests so I have a steadier hand now?

I suppose that’s possible but I also suppose that with the next generation of Dual IS, sensor IBIS also improved... it truly seems like the latter to me since I was thoroughly unimpressed with the IBIS from the GX85 and the G85 felt more like Olympus IBIS.

[canonlyme]

15 minutes ago, mercer said:

Idk about Dual IS Two but I do know the IBIS on the GX85 required me to use the digital IS to get the same level of steadiness that I was getting with just sensor IBIS with the G85.

I guess one could argue that I’ve been shooting more handheld between the two tests so I have a steadier hand now?

I suppose that’s possible but I also suppose that with the next generation of Dual IS, sensor IBIS also improved... it truly seems like the latter to me since I was thoroughly unimpressed with the IBIS from the GX85 and the G85 felt more like Olympus IBIS.

I disagree, the g85 was published very little after the gx80. And if this was the case, they would market it. I already felt susipicious that the "IBIS 2" comments where coming from articles and reviews that do nothing else then quoting official specs.

I think you should just look at the source I have provided, which suggest/uncover there is no doubt about what I said. On some of the g85 models, dual I.S. 2 came by installing a firmware update, you can find the thread on dpreview. There is no IBIS 2 found on any official website and I will continue to treat this as a rumour. If ther was a new IBIS system, they would have sure marketed it. They did all they could to advertise dual i.s 2, which to me seems quite unrelevant as I only own one pana lens. 

I see a huge differens in IBIS performance when using my heavy sigma 18-35 to small adapted lenses. 340 grams between the two cameras and a worse grip pose a huge difference to micro shakes entering the stabilization. 

[kye]

2 hours ago, canonlyme said:

And if this was the case, they would market it.

IBIS and OIS exist in a realm that we have very little insight into, and may never have.

From an engineering perspective, stabilisation is a very simple concept: you put vibrations into a camera from the outside and the stabilisation system attempts to perfectly compensate for them such that the optical operation is immune to their effects.

This type of feedback circuit is like any other, and will have a percentage of vibration removal across a frequency range across the 6 axises of potential vibration up to certain limits of amplitude.  Ideally, the manufacturers would publish these curves and let us as consumers understand which system performs best overall, or in the case of strengths varying among manufacturers, which is best for a given task.  Instead we get a single number - "stops".  It is so overly simplified a specification as to both be completely useless, and also, quite frankly, extremely insulting to the consumer.

Marketing is also equally unreliable.  "if this was the case they would market it" suggests that the job of marketing is to communicate everything about a product regardless of what is trendy, what a particular market segment uses for purchasing decisions, etc.  Obviously this is not the case, so you can't say that if they didn't market it that it doesn't exist.

Instead we get YouTubers who do completely uncontrolled tests and then proclaim conclusions that not only violate the scientific method, but often the test footage that they publish along side their judgements.  I've seen more than one test where the person declared a winner and I compared the footage and couldn't see any real difference in performance at all.

Our own experience of using a camera for a long time is perhaps the most reliable, but even then, our technique changes, our projects change, the weather changes, our blood-sugar changes, etc etc etc.

Unless we design a machine that we mount a camera to that puts the camera through a completely controlled and repeatable set of vibrations and then compare the results from different cameras with identical fields-of-view, shutter angles, and both centre and distribution of mass, then we will never really know how different systems compare.

[mercer]

5 hours ago, canonlyme said:

I disagree, the g85 was published very little after the gx80. And if this was the case, they would market it. I already felt susipicious that the "IBIS 2" comments where coming from articles and reviews that do nothing else then quoting official specs.

I think you should just look at the source I have provided, which suggest/uncover there is no doubt about what I said. On some of the g85 models, dual I.S. 2 came by installing a firmware update, you can find the thread on dpreview. There is no IBIS 2 found on any official website and I will continue to treat this as a rumour. If ther was a new IBIS system, they would have sure marketed it. They did all they could to advertise dual i.s 2, which to me seems quite unrelevant as I only own one pana lens. 

I see a huge differens in IBIS performance when using my heavy sigma 18-35 to small adapted lenses. 340 grams between the two cameras and a worse grip pose a huge difference to micro shakes entering the stabilization. 

You are free to disagree as much as you want. I am just explaining my experiences with the cameras using the exact same lenses. 

Also I don’t believe the amount of stops the IBIS can correct for is even given for either camera. Perhaps the heavier weight of the G85 and ergonomics made the difference. Either way, your experiences and mine are equally anecdotal.

So whatever...

[canonlyme]

23 minutes ago, mercer said:

You are free to disagree as much as you want. I am just explaining my experiences with the cameras using the exact same lenses. 

Also I don’t believe the amount of stops the IBIS can correct for is even given for either camera. Perhaps the heavier weight of the G85 and ergonomics made the difference. Either way, your experiences and mine are equally anecdotal.

So whatever...

The case is, that people have without any proof made up something about IBIS 2, urging other people to buy a more expensive camera without need. The arguments should proof that a different IBIS has been installed, not the other way around. 

On the other hand, if you had both cameras and tried them out, I appreciate that, because you are not just believing something without reason but you have tested it. In the end, you prefered the g85 for stabilization and that is totally fine. I on the other hand bough a cage and wooden grips and can make shots that look close to my gimbal, but with more "life" to it. Might even consider turning the IBIS off for certain styles, you know... 

I still find it a bit puzzling for getting flamed as disrespectful when someone calls a video shit in every aspect, not being able to discuss it on a more in depth level, which I have offered. This is only demanding me for being a bit tickly and saying: well, could you do it better?

2 hours ago, kye said:

 

Unless we design a machine that we mount a camera to that puts the camera through a completely controlled and repeatable set of vibrations and then compare the results from different cameras with identical fields-of-view, shutter angles, and both centre and distribution of mass, then we will never really know how different systems compare.

It seems you know what you are talking about from a technical perspective. I do not agree from a marketing perspective. I generally would expect a camera manufacturer to market every single innovation they can make. And from a cost perspective, why bother innovating the stabilization system without need? Each innovation has some amount of fixed costs to it. 

After all, the focus should still be that I have proven more reasons to believe they have the same system installed, with software causing the newer models to work better with Dual stablization. But as I move on to more heavy rigs, I do not need to make up for lower weight, so I am fine. 

Grips and rigs are less then 100 bucks, and will make the gx80 function better then the tascam dr-05 plus lavalier 100 bucks. I am not gloryfying the gx80, at some point I will have to move on. But I do not see anything except for the gh5 anamorphic modes which really make me want to invest more in something that is losing value as fast as cameras. my lenses in total are now worth more then 10 times the price. @mercer keep me updated if you get hold of the bmmcc, rigged up this poses as similar david/goliath as the gx80/gh5 does for me.

[kye]

7 hours ago, canonlyme said:

It seems you know what you are talking about from a technical perspective. I do not agree from a marketing perspective. I generally would expect a camera manufacturer to market every single innovation they can make. And from a cost perspective, why bother innovating the stabilization system without need? Each innovation has some amount of fixed costs to it. 

You're probably right in terms of marketing a better IBIS because that would be something that people care about and would help to sell cameras.

More generally, I still don't think you can rely on marketing.  Firstly, there are potentially large numbers of individual changes from model to model of a camera line, not all of which will get attention.  Marketing treads a delicate balance between saying the new camera is awesome because it is so much better than the other ones on offer, and implying that the other ones are so much worse than the new one, especially when an improvement can be seen as fixing some kind of deficiency instead of just adding on awesomeness.  
Someone recently started a thread about the IBIS noise being picked up by the internal microphones in the G/GX ranges (IIRC) and someone else pointed out that the GH5 has added internal microphones to cancel out that noise from the internal mics, which was a feature that some people hadn't heard about.  My guess was that this kind of thing probably wouldn't be marketed because it's fixing a flaw in other models that they really don't want to highlight, despite the fix costing money and being of some benefit to customers.

In terms of why they might innovate without a need, it could be that they buy parts in huge volumes to get sustainable prices and after running out of the IBIS motors or controllers or whatever and when they did the next bulk purchase they could only buy the next model up because the old one was discontinued, so the decision to upgrade was made for them.  Or the new features were available in a newer firmware in that chipset (and they hadn't allowed updating of that chipset in the previous models).  Or they had to upgrade a part due to physical size, power consumption, pin layout (to enable different circuitboard layouts) or any number of other reasons.

People tend to underestimate how complicated technology actually is.  If we were to take the drive-train of a car (without the computer chips) and draw it out in a kind of functional diagram, you could fit it on a large sheet of paper, if we included all the switches and controls for indicators and heated seats and power windows in a luxury car then it might be the size of a small wall in your house.  If we did the same for something like a laptop computer or digital camera (they're going to look roughly the same) the writing would be so small that it probably wouldn't be readable even if you made the diagram the size of the field in a sports stadium.

How they build electronic devices is also a strange process.  People think of it like they start designing a product, then they work out all the features, then they buy the bits and put them al together to do that.  It's not like that.  It's a massive shit fight between the marketing and design departments who want to offer every new feature imaginable requiring new parts and redesigns, the engineering department who want to add no new features but make it robust and reliable requiring better parts without a redesign, the accounting department who wants to make it the cheapest possible by buying older cheaper parts in bulk, senior management who are concerned with how their product is or isn't compatible with competitors products, all in an environment where the companies who make products are trying to do secret deals with the parts manufacturers to give them great deals on new parts but block the other companies from buying the best and latest chips.  Add onto that the football-pitch sized complexity of what they're building and the ripple-effect of how changing one part can mean that other parts also need to be changed, potentially then needing further changes in other parts.  This includes interconnectedness of other products which might already be on sale like lenses and memory cards and flashes etc.
And after all that, companies like Nikon are known for implementing support for features well ahead of the time of launch.  IIRC they released some kind of lens functionality which was previously unavailable but it was supported on camera bodies that had been selling for years - so those camera bodies had features that were sitting there waiting for the lenses to be released, so you not only have to ensure compatibility with current features but perhaps future features as well.  It's a huge mess basically, so marketing isn't really a reliable source for all that stuff.

[newfoundmass]

Used a GX85 with my G85 on Saturday while helping a friend on a project. Will ask him to share some of the footage with me to share on here, but with this thread in mind I did a bit of testing and yeah, the G85 has superior IBIS imo and given the GX85 was rigged up and might've even weighed more than the G85, I don't think the difference was in the body. I used the 12-35 on both cameras. GX85 footage was fine, but had more micro jitters I felt. It's a nice little camera though; I kinda want to get one because i appreciate the form factor but I don't really need it, I've got enough cameras ?

[newfoundmass]

On 1/25/2019 at 12:25 PM, canonlyme said:

I still find it a bit puzzling for getting flamed as disrespectful when someone calls a video shit in every aspect, not being able to discuss it on a more in depth level, which I have offered. This is only demanding me for being a bit tickly and saying: well, could you do it better?

I think you're just taking something said in jest too seriously! It happens!