Canon EOS R First Impressions

[Snowbro]

The nikon looked a little more cartoony imo & you can see a slight yellow cast with a little green. Canon had its usual magenta. 

[DBounce]

17 minutes ago, thebrothersthre3 said:

Thought I'd leave this here 

I honestly wasn't expecting to see any difference, but the Canon skintones look noticeably more even and pretty. 

You really can get them to look near enough to identical in post. That said, after spending more time with the pair I can confidently report that the Nikon trumps the Canon in image quality. AF is near enough as makes no difference... if you do not shoot N-Log. The build is better on the Nikon. Reliability is better... zero issues to date, while the Canon did experience three errors... granted easily recovered from. 

Where the Canon excels is in usability. It's very easy to shoot with. The flip screen is wonderful. The controls are also easy to manipulate from both in front and from behind the camera. Shooting to SD cards is great if you have tons of them laying around like I do. 

My overall impression is that when Nikon released the Z6 they aimed to knock one out of the park. It's a camera they intend to be in the lineup for some time. They are committed to improving it and adding features over time. Whereas, I get the sense that Canon released the EOS R kicking and screaming. It feels like a camera that is intended to have a very short lifespan; destined to be replaced by another model soon.

[Django]

Fair observations. The way I see it with the EOS R you're just getting those skintones looking good in C-log (internally even) right out the box. No external recorder needed. No AF issues when shooting Log. Very quick/light grading needed. Fat ALL-I codec. No over sharpening. Again as a b-cam to a 1DX2/C100/C200 it just fits the bill in a no frills kinda way.

As an all-in-one single solution though: the Z6...especially paired with an Atomos V.. is going to be a beast.

The lens options (especially for video) is the only thing i'd be concerned about. Always comes down to the glass (bodies change while glass remains).

Especially for mid to high-end cine glass where I'd rather personally invest in a more cine cam friendly EF mount than F mount. Or even for rental, EF cine glass being a lot more prominent.. but hey that's a different story i guess..

[DBounce]

7 minutes ago, Django said:

Fair observations. The way I see it with the EOS R you're just getting those skintones looking good in C-log (internally even) right out the box. No external recorder needed. No AF issues when shooting Log. Very quick/light grading needed. Fat ALL-I codec. No over sharpening. Again as a b-cam to a 1DX2/C100/C200 it just fits the bill in a no frills kinda way.

As an all-in-one single solution though: the Z6...especially paired with an Atomos V.. is going to be a beast.

The lens options (especially for video) is the only thing i'd be concerned about. Always comes down to the glass (bodies change while glass remains).

Especially for mid to high-end cine glass where I'd rather personally invest in a more cine cam friendly EF mount than F mount. Or even for rental, EF cine glass being a lot more prominent.. but hey that's a different story i guess..

I've given some thought to the cine glass situation. It's perhaps less of a problem with these mirrorless bodies, as adapter are readily available for both R and Z mounts. They are both great cameras, but if you are in it for the longer haul I feel Nikon will be a better choice. I really do love how quick it is to setup and get a shot with the Canon. I think the Nikon is a steeper learning curve. If the Canon shot full frame it would be a real winner. The low-light AF on the Canon is the best I have ever used. It nails focus in near complete darkness. Which is a good thing, because given the 4k crop, F4 becomes like F7 on the 24-105mm, it's pretty extreme. Both amazing cameras at any rate.

[mercer]

It does seem from an observer’s perspective that Nikon developed their Z-Line from the camera up and Canon developed their RF line from the lenses down. By the end of this year Canon will have a solid lens line up on the market for the R series of cameras and Nikon may still be building their core lenses. It makes sense that Nikon did it that way, they don’t have the capital that Canon has.

As far as IQ... I think it’s a wash. You have a beefier codec with a thick image with the Canon but you have FF 4K with the Nikon. You have IBIS with the Nikon but you have better AF with the Canon. You also get the other goodies with the Canon... internal C-Log, focus guides, etc... in the end, I think the R series will be better than the Z series for video but right now I feel it’s neck and neck depending on which features matter most to you.

Honestly, @DBounce if you decide to keep the Z6 over the EOS-R, then you may as well sell the C200 and the 1DX ii. The ProRes Raw development with Nikon will give you at least 80% of what you get from the C200 and soon enough Nikon will have a pro mirrorless or even a D850 may be more than enough for your photo endeavors.

Not my money or anything so take this as you want, but right now you’re building a weird collection that doesn’t mesh well together. 

[DBounce]

10 minutes ago, mercer said:

It does seem from an observer’s perspective that Nikon developed their Z-Line from the camera up and Canon developed their RF line from the lenses down. By the end of this year Canon will have a solid lens line up on the market for the R series of cameras and Nikon may still be building their core lenses. It makes sense that Nikon did it that way, they don’t have the capital that Canon has.

As far as IQ... I think it’s a wash. You have a beefier codec with a thick image with the Canon but you have FF 4K with the Nikon. You have IBIS with the Nikon but you have better AF with the Canon. You also get the other goodies with the Canon... internal C-Log, focus guides, etc... in the end, I think the R series will be better than the Z series for video but right now I feel it’s neck and neck depending on which features matter most to you.

Honestly, @DBounce if you decide to keep the Z6 over the EOS-R, then you may as well sell the C200 and the 1DX ii. The ProRes Raw development with Nikon will give you at least 80% of what you get from the C200 and soon enough Nikon will have a pro mirrorless or even a D850 may be more than enough for your photo endeavors.

Not my money or anything so take this as you want, but right now you’re building a weird collection that doesn’t mesh well together. 

Don't mistake a hybrid for a dedicated cinema camera. The C200 is my main workhorse. I loooovvvveee the full sized XLRs, unlimited record time, handling, powerful rawlite codec. It's a wonderful thing to use. The 1DXMK2 is a tremendous stills camera. Trust me when I tell you the EOS R is no 1DXMK2... not even close. It's a weird kit... yes, but I suspect Nikon is going to deliver the hybrid we have all been waiting for, while Canon is going to continue to be "Canon". The Z6 represent a cheap way for me to test the Nikon waters. Honestly, so far I like what I see. Although my girl agrees with you.

Oh, about that "beefy" codec... after bending the footage from both around in post, from what I can see, it is no more bendable than the Nikon codec... but it's about 3x the size... so there's that. I'm not saying it's bad, but it really takes awhile to transfer the footage compared to the Nikon, partly because the files are larger, and partly because the XQD is faster. 

[Django]

yeah selling the C200 (or 1DX2) over this announcement would be a massive mistake imo! Especially again if you are invested in EF glass.

Other C200 strongpoints: 4K60p, CLog2/3, Battery Life, NDs, XLR, DPAF, DCI 2K/4K, Internal Raw.. just to name a few. No way Z6 gives you 80% of that.

We don't even know what the DR increase will be with ProResRaw (didn't seem that big a leap in FS5) and Nikon still needs to fix their AF in log (which hopefully won't transpire to Raw).

nothing wrong in testing a new system, especially as promising as this one. i have GAS for the Z6 filmmakers kit myself (the sucker in me just wants that Pelican case).

btw about the beefy codec, you don't have to shoot ALL-I on EOS R if you wanna save space and don't see a difference. to me ALL-I isn't so much about being more bendable but it gives a bit of a thicker IQ and has better motion cadence imo & reduces artefacts on certain scenes (like water/foliage). YMMV.

[mercer]

1 hour ago, DBounce said:

Don't mistake a hybrid for a dedicated cinema camera. The C200 is my main workhorse. I loooovvvveee the full sized XLRs, unlimited record time, handling, powerful rawlite codec. It's a wonderful thing to use. The 1DXMK2 is a tremendous stills camera. Trust me when I tell you the EOS R is no 1DXMK2... not even close. It's a weird kit... yes, but I suspect Nikon is going to deliver the hybrid we have all been waiting for, while Canon is going to continue to be "Canon". The Z6 represent a cheap way for me to test the Nikon waters. Honestly, so far I like what I see. Although my girl agrees with you.

Oh, about that "beefy" codec... after bending the footage from both around in post, from what I can see, it is no more bendable than the Nikon codec... but it's about 3x the size... so there's that. I'm not saying it's bad, but it really takes awhile to transfer the footage compared to the Nikon, partly because the files are larger, and partly because the XQD is faster. 

Oh I know the Nikon/Atomos combo is not a dedicated cinema camera, I don’t believe it will be a usable hybrid though either. But unless you are shooting narratives, documentaries or music videos, the Nikon/Atomos ProRes Raw will give you just about you everything you need.

I knew your wife was more than just a pretty face. But seriously, I look forward to seeing what you do with all of the above.

Btw, I am thinking that we may be seeing the beginning of a bigger partnership between Nikon and Atomos... perhaps maybe even a merger. I’ve been saying for a while that I thought Atomos should get into the cine camera business and now with this news, I could see where the two companies can really help each other. 

[Snowbro]

I unfortunately tried my hand at another eos r, because I needed another angle for commercial stuff. If it's on a tripod and stays there as a b cam, sure I guess. If you try to use it for anything else, I think it's trash. It still does that freezing thing, where everything disappears off the screen (sometimes AF box stays), then it doesn't keep autofocusing. It will still record, but even if the af box is there, it won't do continuous AF. Does this in photo mode too. Also, if you walk around (think gimbal follow), the AF box is literally 1/4 the size of the 1DX ii, its much harder to keep focus on someone. You can "expand" the af area to get within 2/3 the size of the 1DX ii AF box, but it comes at a price. You lose the ability to adjust the AF settings, you cannot change sensitivity or the AF speed. The camera also hunts like hell vs the 1DX ii or 5D IV; the transitions between objects you move the camera through, also are not smooth. It lurches between stuff, where the 1D glides through it. 

In photos, if you shoot something backlit or just darker than perfect exposure, it will give you banding. The banding will also happen very early, it's not the unrealistic "5 stops" thing you see on the internet. I have seen it happen without touching the exposure, just adding +60 to shadows. If I just move the exposure slider, I have seen it as early as +0.5 stops. I did however find one workaround if you want to call it that. You can shoot dual pixel raw, which doubles the file size, but it no longer has color banding. It will still have some banding at the top end, but not colored. 

I have heard all the arguments for it, yes, I know it has clog. I can/do just underexpose a little on the 1DX, it has very good shadow recovery, I never have a problem really. The 24p 1080p doesn't look bad (eos r), if you do at least +3 sharpening in camera (using clog), but its 8 bit 4:2:0. The 1DX has low crop 4k 8 bit 4:2:2, which in my experience, has NO banding vs any other 8 bit i've used. The eos r has so much rolling shutter, it is a joke, you can't stabilize that later. The eos r when shooting in 1080p 60p, looks disgusting. I found something cool with the 1DX; if you shoot 4k 60, even if its insanely shaky, you can stabilize it perfectly. I shot stuff with the 85mm 1.2 handheld (even panning etc) & it looks unuseable, then I stabilized it and it looks perfect. Doesn't happen when using the 4k 24p, you can tell when it was stabilized on the 1DX. 

I personally think this camera is a disgrace, unless you use it for a locked down b cam. The camera is worth $1800 max (with adapter), it is $2400 with adapter, $600 overpriced imo. 

[webrunner5]

I think you are being kind at 1800 dollars. That sounds like a blind date, Oh but she has a Really nice personality. Pass. ?

[Snowbro]

The R stands for Regret

[DBounce]

44 minutes ago, Snowbro said:

The R stands for Regret

Wow,  your experience with this camera sounds awful. I can't say I've had so many issues. My main gripes are the crop, poor DR and... that's sort of it. If this was the only game in town... but it isn't. 

[Emanuel]

6 hours ago, mercer said:

Oh I know the Nikon/Atomos combo is not a dedicated cinema camera, I don’t believe it will be a usable hybrid though either. But unless you are shooting narratives, documentaries or music videos, the Nikon/Atomos ProRes Raw will give you just about you everything you need.

I knew your wife was more than just a pretty face. But seriously, I look forward to seeing what you do with all of the above.

Btw, I am thinking that we may be seeing the beginning of a bigger partnership between Nikon and Atomos... perhaps maybe even a merger. I’ve been saying for a while that I thought Atomos should get into the cine camera business and now with this news, I could see where the two companies can really help each other. 

Nice to see. So much expected for years. Sorta game changer, much ado about noting... Overhyped at same time.

' Everything you need ' ?!

They're far away to be alone in this industry, they're not "the only game in town" either as matter of fact : D where they've simply ignored video shooters not so far ago, when others didn't. If memory serves for something ; -)

[Django]

11 hours ago, mercer said:

Btw, I am thinking that we may be seeing the beginning of a bigger partnership between Nikon and Atomos... perhaps maybe even a merger. I’ve been saying for a while that I thought Atomos should get into the cine camera business and now with this news, I could see where the two companies can really help each other. 

 

Nah Atomos just went public. It's in their own interest to remain independent as a third-party partner to all major camera manufacturers.

All Nikon really did here so far is give Atomos the keys to their HDMI protocol and let them run with it. Kudos to them for being first.

9 hours ago, Snowbro said:

I unfortunately tried my hand at another eos r, because I needed another angle for commercial stuff. If it's on a tripod and stays there as a b cam, sure I guess. If you try to use it for anything else, I think it's trash. It still does that freezing thing, where everything disappears off the screen (sometimes AF box stays), then it doesn't keep autofocusing. It will still record, but even if the af box is there, it won't do continuous AF. Does this in photo mode too. Also, if you walk around (think gimbal follow), the AF box is literally 1/4 the size of the 1DX ii, its much harder to keep focus on someone. You can "expand" the af area to get within 2/3 the size of the 1DX ii AF box, but it comes at a price. You lose the ability to adjust the AF settings, you cannot change sensitivity or the AF speed. The camera also hunts like hell vs the 1DX ii or 5D IV; the transitions between objects you move the camera through, also are not smooth. It lurches between stuff, where the 1D glides through it. 

In photos, if you shoot something backlit or just darker than perfect exposure, it will give you banding. The banding will also happen very early, it's not the unrealistic "5 stops" thing you see on the internet. I have seen it happen without touching the exposure, just adding +60 to shadows. If I just move the exposure slider, I have seen it as early as +0.5 stops. I did however find one workaround if you want to call it that. You can shoot dual pixel raw, which doubles the file size, but it no longer has color banding. It will still have some banding at the top end, but not colored. 

I have heard all the arguments for it, yes, I know it has clog. I can/do just underexpose a little on the 1DX, it has very good shadow recovery, I never have a problem really. The 24p 1080p doesn't look bad (eos r), if you do at least +3 sharpening in camera (using clog), but its 8 bit 4:2:0. The 1DX has low crop 4k 8 bit 4:2:2, which in my experience, has NO banding vs any other 8 bit i've used. The eos r has so much rolling shutter, it is a joke, you can't stabilize that later. The eos r when shooting in 1080p 60p, looks disgusting. I found something cool with the 1DX; if you shoot 4k 60, even if its insanely shaky, you can stabilize it perfectly. I shot stuff with the 85mm 1.2 handheld (even panning etc) & it looks unuseable, then I stabilized it and it looks perfect. Doesn't happen when using the 4k 24p, you can tell when it was stabilized on the 1DX. 

I personally think this camera is a disgrace, unless you use it for a locked down b cam. The camera is worth $1800 max (with adapter), it is $2400 with adapter, $600 overpriced imo. 

Sounds like you really enjoy complaining about Canon gear (I've heard you repeat this stuff a few times) Maybe its just time to look elsewhere?

FWIW, not my experience with this cam at all (nor have i read any review out there mention such severe issues). No banding on dark exposure or at +0.5 stops. No freezes. No issues at 1080p60. Shot plenty of handheld 4K with no visible RS (static shots / slow pans).

EOS R has it's limitations & flaws but calling it a disgrace is just being overly dramatic... Maybe 1DX2 got you spoiled  

[DBounce]

36 minutes ago, Django said:

Nah Atomos just went public. It's in their own interest to remain independent as a third-party partner to all major camera manufacturers.

All Nikon really did here so far is give Atomos the keys to their HDMI protocol and let them run with it. Kudos to them for being first.

Sounds like you really enjoy complaining about Canon gear (I've heard you repeat this stuff a few times) Maybe its just time to look elsewhere?

FWIW, not my experience with this cam at all (nor have i read any review out there mention such severe issues). No banding on dark exposure or at +0.5 stops. No freezes. No issues at 1080p60. Shot plenty of handheld 4K with no visible RS (static shots / slow pans).

EOS R has it's limitations & flaws but calling it a disgrace is just being overly dramatic... Maybe 1DX2 got you spoiled  

I have to agree, it’s not perfect, but it’s a pretty good camera to work with. Are there limitations? Yes, that crop sucks. It makes all your glass tighter and slower. The build could be better. While the body itself feels quite solid the plastic bits feel cheap. But it has some killer features also.

In the end what ruins this camera is Canon gimping it... as they always do. I think we have to reward companies that push the envelope. Nikon is doing that now. For years they neglected video... for years they neglected firmware updates... and so, for years I neglected Nikon. That has seemingly changed in a massive way. This entry into mirrorless presented an opportunity for Canon to turn over a new leaf. But clearly they are not ready to make that leap just yet. But don’t worry, with companies like Nikon and Fuji putting out cutting edge features Canon will have little choice but to evolve just to stay relevant.

[Snowbro]

I just call it how it is, I have no obligation to sugar coat anything. Technically they could fix most of the issues with firmware, but they aren't known to be on top of that. I expect my cameras for $2k+, not to malfunction constantly, I think that's reasonable. The only reason I mention the problems, is to give others a realistic picture, so they dont waste their time & money. Also, hopefully by some miracle, canon hears and fixes it. 

[Emanuel]

8 hours ago, Django said:

Nah Atomos just went public. It's in their own interest to remain independent as a third-party partner to all major camera manufacturers.

All Nikon really did here so far is give Atomos the keys to their HDMI protocol and let them run with it. Kudos to them for being first.

 

For our own sake! The fanboyism over this forum has reached some records, lately... : -D