kaylee Posted January 11, 2019 Share Posted January 11, 2019 no no no, the government is currently tyrannical, this isnt a what if – its already happened. the US spends TRILLIONS of dollars on black budget defense projects every year – projects that are completely secret and unaccounted for. no one has a right to know about them outside of their compartmentalization trillions of dollars. and of course we fight endless foreign wars against the will of the people – thats become so normal that no one even brings it up. i could go on, but all this is wildly unacceptable, and everyone knows it. as of now, our best days are certainly behind us IronFilm 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kye Posted January 11, 2019 Share Posted January 11, 2019 38 minutes ago, IronFilm said: As simply just "a few" (hundreds? Thousands?) resisting against some kind of government injustice could be enough for those in power to realise "oh hang on, maybe we should stop being bullies like this and start to behave??" I can understand how it's nice to think such things, but those numbers are way too low. Have a look at this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_protests_in_the_United_States_by_size The largest item on the list is the 2017 Womens march with an estimated 3.3-4.6 million people. For context, that's most of the entire population of NZ. Was the march a success? Probably, but it didn't turn the political landscape upside-down or anything. In terms of how many people with guns it would take for the politicians to wake-up and take notice, who knows, but the first tactic would be to completely discredit and de-humanise them with a mass media campaign and then use overwhelming force. Each end of the political spectrum has managed to discredit and partially de-humanise those at the other extreme, despite being in the same country. Most western countries have de-humanised refugees enough to justify inhuman treatment and even offshore "processing facilities" where human rights seem to be mostly absent. Once the general populace thought they were anti-democratic anti-western extremists from the opposite side of the political spectrum to themselves, the government would treat them like any other armed group who explicitly refused to be controlled. Yes, there would be fallout, but not because having guns helped, there would be fallout because so many people died and a minority of people would be interested in why they did so, and the change would take place through the normal systems of democracy that are currently in place, not because the people with the guns ousted those in power. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snowbro Posted January 11, 2019 Author Share Posted January 11, 2019 Can we rename this thread to: "Cameramen talk about shooting guns instead of cameras"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Romero 2 Posted January 11, 2019 Share Posted January 11, 2019 2 hours ago, IronFilm said: How quickly would support for the government disappear once they start attacking their own local population in the USA? Glad you brought that up... https://www.history.com/topics/civil-rights-movement/black-panthers One of the reasons that California has such stringent gun laws is because that ultra-leftist pinko commie Ronald Reagan signed The Mumford Act in to law: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mulford_Act For those who are unfamiliar with Ronald Reagan, he was actually a conservative governor of California (and later president of the US) and was USUALLY supportive of gun ownership rights... for people who aren't black. As president, he took the War On Drugs (started by President Nixon in the 70s) to new heights and incarceration rates skyrocketed in the US, primarily due to incarceration of black Americans for drug crimes . While I would love to believe that the people of my country would stand up to the government to prevent it from attacking its own people, this sadly hasn't been the case. You unfortunately don't see gun owners in America standing up to injustices. Instead you see them making death threats against football players who kneel during the national anthem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Members BTM_Pix Posted January 11, 2019 Super Members Share Posted January 11, 2019 1 hour ago, Snowbro said: My threads always end up so random, I blame this one on BTM_Pix ? Well if you can't blame it on the sunshine,the moonlight,the good times or indeed the boogie then I suppose I'm next in line. kaylee and Snowbro 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Members BTM_Pix Posted January 11, 2019 Super Members Share Posted January 11, 2019 On 1/10/2019 at 7:11 AM, IronFilm said: Britain will be just fine come March! On 1/10/2019 at 8:02 AM, Kisaha said: I believe Britain will benfine too, they always manage for their own good, even though I was favoring a united Europe. Unfortunately, the detail involved means that we will be anything but fine. Frictionless trade and with mainland Europe isn't just a buzz phrase but a vital part of not just how much trade we do but how we are able to do that trade. Everything that has evolved over our almost half a century relationship with the EU from food and safety standards, to human rights, worker protection, research projects, funding of development of deprived areas and the two way benefits of freedom of movement will all end in a couple of months. My right to work, trade and latterly live in other European countries that I have enjoyed for the past 27 years will be over. My wife who is an EU national has also spent those same 27 years working in the UK, paying taxes and contributing to the economy will now have to pay a registration fee to stay in our own home. Her pensions and other assets are locked into a currency that has been devalued, her future status is no longer protected by EU agreements and living in a country that is becoming ever more flagrantly hostile to EU nationals. And all of this while we are still bound by the terms of membership so God knows how it will become when the gloves are off after we leave the EU. So we have had to make a decision to open an EU company in readiness and unless a miracle happens and Brexit is halted we will close our UK one because it will just present too many problems to trade with and within the EU from outside it. Without sounding too dramatic, due to the ideologies behind it and the impact it will have on my ability to maintain my career, Brexit has made me a political and economic refugee and I will be leaving the UK permanently. Even if everything is 'fine' in the UK after Brexit, it will never truly be 'fine' again due the fractures it has created and the light it has shone on some ugly truths. And yet we continue to sleep walk to the abyss because of some insane combination of an outdated notion of exceptionalism within the wider world and keeping a stiff upper lip. Summed up really by this from one of our better comedies that I'm sure you are both familiar with From the same programme, this also sums up where we are and what we need at this late hour instead of just blindly walking into no mans land. Unfortunately, all we've got is a government who have handed a £15m contract to bring in the emergency medical and food supplies we will need post Brexit to a ferry company that has no ferries. Not very cunning at all. Kisaha and webrunner5 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
User Posted January 11, 2019 Share Posted January 11, 2019 2 hours ago, kye said: Most western countries have de-humanised refugees enough to justify inhuman treatment and even offshore "processing facilities" where human rights seem to be mostly absent. This stuff isn't easy. Having passed 10 years in the Islamic world, I certainly understand the benefit of having "local" processing facilities in "regional" safe zones where those who are claiming refugee status can have their backgrounds verified locally by the citizens there. Why? Because Europe will now spend the next 100 years trying to stamp out religious fanatics. And let me ask, what right do refugees have when it comes at the price of deaths and destruction in the host country? I'd appreciate an alternate perspective here? Having been at the receiving end of, and witnessing full scale life threatening assaults against others, ensuing in the aftermath of the 2015 refugee flood into Berlin... I have some complicated feelings on the matter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kisaha Posted January 11, 2019 Share Posted January 11, 2019 @BTM_Pix I said Britain will be fine, not the British. Especially my friends there that have a similar approach of what you described above are not very comfortable anymore. Studying and working there for 5 years I have too many connections that now are endangered. Isolationism is never a good approach. All in all, the people spoke, and the people are getting what they deserve. BTM_Pix 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kye Posted January 11, 2019 Share Posted January 11, 2019 1 minute ago, User said: This stuff isn't easy. Having passed 10 years in the Islamic world, I certainly understand the benefit of having "processing facilities" in regional safe zones where those who are claiming refugee status can have their backgrounds verified locally by the citizens there. Europe will spend the next 100 years stamping out religious fanatics. Having been at the receiving end of, and witnessing full scale life threatening assaults against others, ensuing in the aftermath of the 2015 refugee flood into Berlin... I have some complicated feelings on the matter. I have no problems with assessing people for entry into a country, especially if they are claiming refugee status. No-one wants to let criminals into their country, regardless of what motivates them to break the law. Unfortunately, at least here in Australia, these facilities are now being used as a deterrent to stop people from trying to seek asylum, where people are held indefinitely, refused basic medical care, and are never evaluated for entry into the country. We also distinguish people arriving by boat vs by plane. Boat people (whom Australians are terrified of) are taken to these offshore centres, but those who arrive by plane aren't. Our stance on boat people is so strong that we even got the US to take them from us... Quote Australia’s policy of offshore processing in Papua New Guinea and Nauru, which denies access to asylum in Australia for refugees arriving by sea without a valid visa, has caused extensive, avoidable suffering for far too long. Four years on, more than 2,000 people are still languishing in unacceptable circumstances. Families have been separated and many have suffered physical and psychological harm. In light of this dire humanitarian situation, last November UNHCR exceptionally agreed to help with the relocation of refugees to the United States following a bilateral agreement between Australia and the US. We agreed to do so on the clear understanding that vulnerable refugees with close family ties in Australia would ultimately be allowed to settle there. UNHCR has recently been informed by Australia that it refuses to accept even these refugees, and that they, along with the others on Nauru and Papua New Guinea, have been informed that their only option is to remain where they are or to be transferred to Cambodia or to the United States. That's from the UN (link). It is the modern equivalent of putting heads on spikes at the border. User 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kisaha Posted January 11, 2019 Share Posted January 11, 2019 12 minutes ago, kye said: I have no problems with assessing people for entry into a country, especially if they are claiming refugee status. No-one wants to let criminals into their country, regardless of what motivates them to break the law. Unfortunately, at least here in Australia, these facilities are now being used as a deterrent to stop people from trying to seek asylum, where people are held indefinitely, refused basic medical care, and are never evaluated for entry into the country. We also distinguish people arriving by boat vs by plane. Boat people (whom Australians are terrified of) are taken to these offshore centres, but those who arrive by plane aren't. Our stance on boat people is so strong that we even got the US to take them from us... That's from the UN (link). It is the modern equivalent of putting heads on spikes at the border. I never agreed more with you than your latest posts! kye 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
User Posted January 11, 2019 Share Posted January 11, 2019 Thank you for that Kai... I know of the situation you describe. I also know that not every refugee is Muslim, but it seems to me that if I were Muslim, I would want to seek asylum in a country that was also Islamic friendly... you know... where my brothers and sisters just 'get' me and my burqa clad wife. Indonesia, Bangladesh, Pakistan easily come to mind as they are not war zones. But somehow everyone seems to want the nations with mini skirts social welfare cheques. How odd. It would be interesting to me if all Germans suddenly moved to bombed out Syria... I'll bet you that within 10 years Syria would be a model state and Germany would be a shit hole. The issue for me is that the apple doesn't fall far from the tree, and if you have ever sat at length with those who have Allah in the heart and on the tongue, you'll find that things like science, logic and reason often go right out the window. Funny that about religion... and yes the Evangelicals are just as dumb, but they don't blow people up... not yet anyway. I also know that not every asylum seeker is a religious fanatic, and asylum seekers can also be economic refugees. Should the West blame itself for the woes of the world... a little self flagellation? I don't know, sometimes the people get the governments they deserve. And finally, if 2 million Europeans sought asylum in an Islamic nation, there would simply be mass killings. But hey, the West has to somehow be the light... and Germany did have a huge labour gap that they wanted to fill... and so it goes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kye Posted January 11, 2019 Share Posted January 11, 2019 1 hour ago, User said: Thank you for that Kai... I know of the situation you describe. I also know that not every refugee is Muslim, but it seems to me that if I were Muslim, I would want to seek asylum in a country that was also Islamic friendly... you know... where my brothers and sisters just 'get' me and my burqa clad wife. Indonesia, Bangladesh, Pakistan easily come to mind as they are not war zones. But somehow everyone seems to want the nations with mini skirts social welfare cheques. How odd. It would be interesting to me if all Germans suddenly moved to bombed out Syria... I'll bet you that within 10 years Syria would be a model state and Germany would be a shit hole. The problem is that the apple doesn't fall far from the tree, and if you have ever sat at length with those who have Allah in the heart and on the tongue, you'll find that things like science, logic and reason go right out the window. And finally, if 2 million Europeans sought asylum in an Islamic nation, there would be mass killings. But hey, the West has to somehow be the light. I believe it is more about religious fundamentalism rather than which religion. The Catholic Church resisted the heliocentric model of the solar system and famously kept Galileo under house arrest for the remainder of his life for supporting it, only formally acquitted by the church in 1992. Today, despite being perceived as one of the most western and scientific countries in the world, the US has a terrible acceptance of the theory of evolution, and the theory has very significant differences in the level of support based on religious preference (link). Islam has a long history of contributions to science and mathematics, and the word 'algebra' is even derived from the title of a book by an islamic mathematician (link, link). If people don't know their history then it's easy to attribute observations to the wrong factors, especially with a media that reaches for the latest and most controversial events it can find / invent. Level-headed analysis and fact-checking seem to be in short supply these days! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
User Posted January 11, 2019 Share Posted January 11, 2019 24 minutes ago, kye said: Level-headed analysis and fact-checking seem to be in short supply these days! For sure. And their is nothing quite like living amongst a wide range of cultures to get a sense of prevailing mentalities and how things actually play out on the ground level... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Members BTM_Pix Posted January 11, 2019 Super Members Share Posted January 11, 2019 3 hours ago, Kisaha said: @BTM_Pix I said Britain will be fine, not the British. Especially my friends there that have a similar approach of what you described above are not very comfortable anymore. Studying and working there for 5 years I have too many connections that now are endangered. Isolationism is never a good approach. All in all, the people spoke, and the people are getting what they deserve. 35% of the total electorate voted to leave of the 72% that voted, so its the 28% that didn't actually go and vote that have got what they deserved. I'm not actually sure what Britain or being British actually even means anymore let alone what the difference between the two may or may not be. The only thing that it seems unites everyone is the feeking of division. Pretty ironic really. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kye Posted January 11, 2019 Share Posted January 11, 2019 5 minutes ago, BTM_Pix said: 35% of the total electorate voted to leave of the 72% that voted, so its the 28% that didn't actually go and vote that have got what they deserved. I'm not actually sure what Britain or being British actually even means anymore let alone what the difference between the two may or may not be. The only thing that it seems unites everyone is the feeking of division. Pretty ironic really. I think it's getting more and more difficult these days to get clarity on what people deserve. You're right about the people that didn't vote, but for the people that did, the amount of misleading information around topics like this makes it pretty hard to understand what your choices really are, even if you actually care and put in time to understand the issues. The impact of the media constantly trying to trigger your emotions also doesn't help in keeping perspective. User 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Members BTM_Pix Posted January 11, 2019 Super Members Share Posted January 11, 2019 3 minutes ago, kye said: I think it's getting more and more difficult these days to get clarity on what people deserve. You're right about the people that didn't vote, but for the people that did, the amount of misleading information around topics like this makes it pretty hard to understand what your choices really are, even if you actually care and put in time to understand the issues. The impact of the media constantly trying to trigger your emotions also doesn't help in keeping perspective. The crux of it is that people were given an opportunity to give a simpllistic answer to a very complex question. Irrespective of the flat out lies, they were asked if they wanted to sit on a chair without being told it was an electric one. For such an enormous change to have been actioned, the threshold should have been set at a much higher level than 50.1% For anyone outside the UK, the impact of this vote might not seem as seismic as they are being portrayed but the underlying factors that caused it should scare the shit out of you. The targeting and manipulation of voters through social and traditional media sounds like something out of a conspiracy thriller but was frighteningly real and comparitively frighteningly cheap. Anyway, time for a break for me. User and kye 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kisaha Posted January 11, 2019 Share Posted January 11, 2019 14 minutes ago, BTM_Pix said: The crux of it is that people were given an opportunity to give a simpllistic answer to a very complex question. Irrespective of the flat out lies, they were asked if they wanted to sit on a chair without being told it was an electric one. For such an enormous change to have been actioned, the threshold should have been set at a much higher level than 50.1% For anyone outside the UK, the impact of this vote might not seem as seismic as they are being portrayed but the underlying factors that caused it should scare the shit out of you. The targeting and manipulation of voters through social and traditional media sounds like something out of a conspiracy thriller but was frighteningly real and comparitively frighteningly cheap. Anyway, time for a break for me. On the contrary, I believe the impact will be global. UK outside EU weakens in every way the EU also. UK will be "fortified' in their island, like always do, but the rest of Europe does not have that luxury, or they do not want to. Germany is financialy the most powerful European state, but military, and for obvious reasons, is a joke. Europe can not "defend" themselves in any way. If Europe goes down, the rest of the western world will. This war is an info war, more than any other war in human history, and it has already started. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snowbro Posted January 11, 2019 Author Share Posted January 11, 2019 Germany still won.. look at who runs the EU & benefits the most lol https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/eu-referendum-nazis-created-basic-plan-for-the-european-union-ukip-mep-gerard-batten-says-a7032221.html%3famp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaylee Posted January 12, 2019 Share Posted January 12, 2019 this thread is great this is what the internet and message boards are all about i would like to think that we're all friends here, and that we should be able to have a spirited discussion about anything from cameras to global politics without devolving to personal attacks, and being mean spirited cheers, guys ?? webrunner5, Kisaha, User and 3 others 5 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
User Posted January 12, 2019 Share Posted January 12, 2019 Well said Kaylee, thank you. Now if we could just bring back some of the old hands that were dumped. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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