Sharp's new 8K M43 camera

[kye]

16 minutes ago, BTM_Pix said:

I was taking using lenses with OIS as a given to be honest.  I actually thought I'd put that in but my old brain is leaking like a sieve these days!

I also think the market I'm talking about is also less sensitive to sticking to 180 degree shutter rules when you look at their output where its clear that many of them are shooting in aperture priority without ND, not to mention the abundance of slooooow mooooooo in their B roll . Where this camera scores in that latter regard is that for many, though not all I have to stress, the slow mo B roll is very often a crutch to enable them to spread the coverage they shoot a bit thinner whereas I think re-framing, particularly the dynamic type, offers more interesting alternatives to that approach.

Just to be clear and go back to what I said a few posts ago (or maybe even in the other thread !) about this camera, I think its strength lies in what I would loosely class as 'video' work rather than the even looser term 'cinematic'. 

Its very much in the vein of the shoot first frame later scenario that the 360 cameras have given us a glimpse of but just that this does it with fewer compromises that are inherent in those cameras in terms of image quality and fisheye lenses !

I think that's what will make it a very viable option for people who have seen that potential with the 360 cameras but want more control over what's going into the camera.

Of course, I'm saying this without knowing the price so if its over £3K then all bets are off !

Realistically, it should actually be half that price considering who is behind it but when Panasonic are still getting away with marginal re-hashes like the G91 for £1K then I suspect it will closer to £3K than £2K.

Ah, yes, OIS is fine

I agree about using a fisheye and reframing, and also that the 180 shutter is less of a rule than perhaps it used to be.  In fact, I have been watching the latest season of Peaky Blinders (great show BTW - fantastic in pretty much every way) but there was a scene where a ceiling fan was operating and the fan blades were appearing about every 90 degrees of their rotation with no visible motion blur, so even that level of production seems like it didn't stick to the 180 shutter, for one shot at least, which I thought was interesting

12 minutes ago, Anaconda_ said:

I think I heard somewhere it’s going to be like $4-5k. Could be making it up though.

Dave mentioned a price range in the Kinotika video, but it didn't sound like it was confirmed yet, and I think the Sharp guy in the Cinema5d video said they hadn't decided.

[Alt Shoo]

8 hours ago, BTM_Pix said:

 

Its interesting to see a lot of the reactions to this camera as dismissing it as a bit of novelty if not a flat out joke and I'm sure a lot of that is related to it coming from a manufacturer that is not one of the usual suspects.

I think if people look beyond that, which they should because Sharp have not only been around the block a few times but are owned by Foxconn, and consider the possibilities that it offers then they might well find that this has the potential to be a far more signficant product than it is being given credit for.

 

Reminds me of the attitude most displayed when JVC released the GYLS300. Just writing it off because it’s not the usual suspect in cinema cameras. Sharp may surprise us with something special, or it may be another product with undelivered promises. Either way it’s a step forward to bigger and better tools. 

[Snowfun]

Don’t RED have a relationship with Foxconn? Could the Sharp (possibly rebadged?) become the new “cheap” RED small form factor camera oft rumoured or hinted at? Especially given that the Hydrogen phone modules have been abandoned in favour of something being developed by RED itself rather than the phone spin-off.

[BTM_Pix]

18 minutes ago, Snowfun said:

Don’t RED have a relationship with Foxconn? Could the Sharp (possibly rebadged?) become the new “cheap” RED small form factor camera oft rumoured or hinted at? Especially given that the Hydrogen phone modules have been abandoned in favour of something being developed by RED itself rather than the phone spin-off.

I had completely forgotten about that !

Good plot twist if it is.

https://www.theverge.com/circuitbreaker/2018/2/13/17007986/red-foxconn-potential-8k-camera-partnership

[kye]

4 hours ago, BTM_Pix said:

I had completely forgotten about that !

Good plot twist if it is.

https://www.theverge.com/circuitbreaker/2018/2/13/17007986/red-foxconn-potential-8k-camera-partnership

And with an MFT mount to boot!  Fantastic if you want to adapt manual lenses.

[Dave Maze]

I spoke with Sharp directly and they are denying any red involvement. But who knows! ?‍♂️

[Marcio Kabke Pinheiro]

On 4/7/2019 at 8:23 PM, Márcio Kabke Pinheiro said:

Newsshooter made some footage with a prototype in Las Vegas.

https://www.newsshooter.com/2019/04/08/we-take-sharps-upcoming-8k-micro-four-thirds-camera-for-a-spin/

Interestingly, Sharp says that the sensor is not QuadBayer, and it is a 33mp new sensor made by them. As expected, it is not a low light camera.

Indeed, the sensor looks not a regular 4/3 - in fact looks like it have a 16:9 aspect. Is it the case, @DaveAltizer?

[Dave Maze]

New video! Lowlight test. Uploading the raw files! 

 

[Kisaha]

54 minutes ago, DaveAltizer said:

New video! Lowlight test. Uploading the raw files! 

 

Great Dave! do not know about the dance, but yeah, pretty cool in general!

Do you have any sense about over heating, or not, and recording times?

a camera that great, on such an early production cycle it's just brilliant.

If it is close to 1.999$ and has some sort of Insta One X stabilization (in 4 or 6K) and 10bit log, then it can be something!

I love the form factor!

[newfoundmass]

I saw someone say that Sharp told them that they're trying to target bloggers with this camera and not narrative filmmakers. I thought that was really weird, because what vlogger needs (or has the ability to) edit 8K video? 

 

[MeanRevert]

Well..Sharp did get one thing right. Vloggers really need flippy screens.  But they also really need stabilization.

All I want is the perfect camera. All I want is the perfect cameraaah!

[newfoundmass]

At least they're not marketing towards photographers. LOSERS! 

[kye]

2 hours ago, newfoundmass said:

I saw someone say that Sharp told them that they're trying to target bloggers with this camera and not narrative filmmakers. I thought that was really weird, because what vlogger needs (or has the ability to) edit 8K video? 

I think people associate vlogging with mobile filming (like with a gorillapod) but I would say that the vast majority of "people who upload videos of them talking to a camera" are in home studios with the camera on a tripod.  In this genre jump cuts are the most common edit type, and having the extra resolution will allow them to create different zoom-levels and cut between them to hide jump-cuts.  If you need to publish in 4K (which is a topic that we can debate another day) then having 8K to crop into can really help.  In practice you can do mild scaling of 4K without visible artefacts, however if you're doing something where you want to crop in severely to create several virtual cameras, then 8K can be a real help.

For example if you have a cooking show you can have a wide angle lens, and turn that into a wide, a medium of you, and various close-ups of what you're doing on the bench.  Anyone presenting anything like this would benefit.  If you had a 16mm lens you could have a 16mm wide, a 35mm mid of you, and up to a 70mm FOV for details and still be in 1080, 100mm if you're willing to rescale a bit.

Yes, 8K will be a pain to edit, but if you're using one 8K camera and one lens instead of 4 cameras, 4 lenses (or more), and all the associated media management, syncing, colour matching, etc, 8k could still be ahead for a lot of people.

It's a different mindset - in the new world we 'over capture' and frame in post, just like a 360 camera.  @BTM_Pix has already mentioned this.  In the old world we based our capture format on the publishing format, but this was a technology limitation that we have now been freed from.  Yes, it has attractive and nostalgic aesthetic aspects to it, but that doesn't mean that those limitations work well for everyone or all types of film-making.

Saying that no-one needs an 8K camera because no-one needs to publish in 8K is like saying the only point of buying an 8K camera is to publish 8K, which is also like saying the only point in buying a Ferrari is to drive at 300kph.

[Emanuel]

2 hours ago, newfoundmass said:

I saw someone say that Sharp told them that they're trying to target bloggers with this camera and not narrative filmmakers.

For one simple reason based on several premises:

- poor DR;

- too light codec bit rate to offer limited color depth;

- no chroma subsampling will save the grace.

 

Other than that, skilled hands will be able to make it an interesting tool though. Resolution will make a hybrid made in heaven.

Surprising low light performance to close the deal beyond any initial prejudice.

 

E : -)

[sanveer]

On 1/10/2019 at 1:53 AM, androidlad said:

It's the same sensor as P4K, Terra 4K, GH5s, E2 but with Quad Bayer unlocked to output 8K.

Because the pixel size is 4 times smaller, Sony's dual Correlated Double Sampling actually achieves much better SNR due to reduced Full Well Capacity.

So the resulting 8K image has similar noise performance with all the above cameras.

Wouldn't it require (a lot) more processing power too, for better noise reduction. And what about dynamic range? From the few videos posted online, the video profile seemed very contrasty. It also seemed to be the exact opposite of a log profile, and had a very low bitrate too, and therefore was not a good example for highlighting the capabilities of the sensor. Maybe once they figure these things out, we'll tually get to see the capabilities of the sensor (and processing). 

[BTM_Pix]

3 hours ago, kye said:

For example if you have a cooking show you can have a wide angle lens, and turn that into a wide, a medium of you, and various close-ups of what you're doing on the bench.  Anyone presenting anything like this would benefit.  If you had a 16mm lens you could have a 16mm wide, a 35mm mid of you, and up to a 70mm FOV for details and still be in 1080, 100mm if you're willing to rescale a bit.

Yes, 8K will be a pain to edit, but if you're using one 8K camera and one lens instead of 4 cameras, 4 lenses (or more), and all the associated media management, syncing, colour matching, etc, 8k could still be ahead for a lot of people.

 

Yep and the cooking show scenario is precisely the one shown in the Mevo video that I put up a few comments back.

This is another one which was cut live on their app showing a similar scenario.

You have to look past the image quality (and bear in mind this is a €350 camera that is also live streaming !) and consider this concept but at higher quality and with an interchangeable lens so you aren't tied in to a super wide base shot if you don't need it.

The control app isn't just limited to cuts but can also do simulated zoom creeps, pans and even face recognition tracking to keep a subject in frame.

The app brings us on to another aspect which is that I don't think people will be taking content and slapping it on the timeline of their favourite NLE but will be doing it inside a dedicated app. As with the Insta360 One X, I could if I wanted to put the source file from the camera into FCPX and create the same process to turn the 360 content into steered flat content but why bother when the exact tools I need are in the app and can do it far quicker?

Sharp are already talking about proxy workflows and I think a dedicated app would be the way to go for them for this sort of application as it can be hidden away from the user who can just get on with creating the piece without having to shoehorn it into their existing NLE.

I have to keep stressing that I don't think this camera is going to appeal to that many people on here but for people who have certain applications, it has the potential to be very significant indeed if Sharp come up with a task oriented app (or even a plugin for the other NLEs) that packages that functionality in as logical and easy to control way as the apps for Mevo and Insta360 One X.

 

[kye]

57 minutes ago, BTM_Pix said:

Yep and the cooking show scenario is precisely the one shown in the Mevo video that I put up a few comments back.

Yes, I was thinking of that and knew I'd seen it somewhere but couldn't remember where, so punched a few terms into google image search and found the above one instead

[Kisaha]

1 hour ago, BTM_Pix said:

You have to look past the image quality (and bear in mind this is a €350 camera that is also live streaming !) and consider this concept but at higher quality and with an interchangeable lens so you aren't tied in to a super wide base shot if you don't need it.

The control app isn't just limited to cuts but can also do simulated zoom creeps, pans and even face recognition tracking to keep a subject in frame.

The app brings us on to another aspect which is that I don't think people will be taking content and slapping it on the timeline of their favourite NLE but will be doing it inside a dedicated app. As with the Insta360 One X, I could if I wanted to put the source file from the camera into FCPX and create the same process to turn the 360 content into steered flat content but why bother when the exact tools I need are in the app and can do it far quicker?

Sharp are already talking about proxy workflows and I think a dedicated app would be the way to go for them for this sort of application as it can be hidden away from the user who can just get on with creating the piece without having to shoehorn it into their existing NLE.

I have to keep stressing that I don't think this camera is going to appeal to that many people on here but for people who have certain applications, it has the potential to be very significant indeed if Sharp come up with a task oriented app (or even a plugin for the other NLEs) that packages that functionality in as logical and easy to control way as the apps for Mevo and Insta360 One X.

 

Exactly, this is very exciting in my opinion, if you look past the traditional resolution thing (4K is already too much, or just right, for normal viewing, on my OLED, HDR is far more important than resolution), 8K can be a very powerful tool for many applications, having something like this in prosumer price (1999$) can significantly change the industry going on.

Insta X is truly amazing, and can put on Premiere and manipulate it as you do with other footage, if you add the Kolor (GoPro) VR plug ins, then the possibilities are truly limitless, can easily mix and match footage from other sources (this is the main advantage going to your favorite NLE suite) and create something you couldn't just a year ago.

I believe that this camera CAN appeal to a lot of people here, having a P4K and a Sharp can cover really anything, even multicam events .

[BTM_Pix]

22 minutes ago, kye said:

Yes, I was thinking of that and knew I'd seen it somewhere but couldn't remember where, so punched a few terms into google image search and found the above one instead

That Datavideo hardware version is really smart actually but pretty expensive.

Although if you add up the price of something like an ATEM switcher and a couple of additional cameras, it does make sense financially.

I'm surprised BM haven't made a similar unit but maybe they will now they are all about 8K and combine it with an 8K version of their studio cameras.......

 

4 minutes ago, Kisaha said:

Exactly, this is very exciting in my opinion, if you look past the traditional resolution thing (4K is already too much, or just right, for normal viewing, on my OLED, HDR is far more important than resolution), 8K can be a very powerful tool for many applications, having something like this in prosumer price (1999$) can significantly change the industry going on.

Insta X is truly amazing, and can put on Premiere and manipulate it as you do with other footage, if you add the Kolor (GoPro) VR plug ins, then the possibilities are truly limitless, can easily mix and match footage from other sources (this is the main advantage going to your favorite NLE suite) and create something you couldn't just a year ago.

I believe that this camera CAN appeal to a lot of people here, having a P4K and a Sharp can cover really anything, even multicam events .

Fuck it, I'm buying one !

[Kisaha]

5 minutes ago, BTM_Pix said:

Fuck it, I'm buying one !

I definitely will, if it has 10bit and some kind of log, 100%!

With a P4K and a Sharp 8K can have a super small setup, with 1/3 of the money the C200 costs! and you can shoot raw, 8K, multi cam - like 3 4K cams, or even more for 1080p delivery, have great in camera stabilization (which I assume the 8K will), interchangeable lenses, a lot more formats and codecs to choose from, both cameras in their most minimal rigging can be a lot smaller and lighter, e.t.c

If it is close to 1999...if it is more than 2999, it can break the deal!