M43 not dead Panasonic S1

[thebrothersthre3]

So basically the Panasonic rep told him the Panasonic S1 is centered around photographers and the GH line is for video. Sounds like complete BS as they are both hybrid cameras, but its interesting that they are putting out that message. They definitely marketed the GH5S as a video camera. 

Anyways the exciting thing is that I think the GH6 will really be an interesting camera. It looks like they are pursuing phase detect auto focus on the S1, which makes sense if they genuinely don't care about the video side. Hopefully its being developed for the GH6. 

The thing is at this point I am pretty happy with what the XT3 offers. One of the advantages of smaller sensors is better stabilization and less processing power. It would be neat to see a really well done multi exposure HDR. Right now the two things that would make me buy another camera are significant dynamic range increase and stabilization. 

[wolf33d]

The S1 does not have phase detect af.

contrast based

[thebrothersthre3]

2 hours ago, wolf33d said:

The S1 does not have phase detect af.

contrast based

Yeah, I meant to say aren't. Which makes sense if they aren't targeting video people. 

[kye]

It sounds like marketing BS to keep people excited about m43.

It's nice that they're implying there will be a GH6, but I wouldn't bet the farm on them still having an MFT line in 5-10 years.

[thebrothersthre3]

9 hours ago, kye said:

It sounds like marketing BS to keep people excited about m43.

It's nice that they're implying there will be a GH6, but I wouldn't bet the farm on them still having an MFT line in 5-10 years.

5-10 more years is far from dead when it comes to tech imo.  I mean half of the things that are put on the market these days lose much of their value within 2 years and may be completely irrelevant in 5. 

[mercer]

2 hours ago, thebrothersthre3 said:

5-10 more years is far from dead when it comes to tech imo.  I mean half of the things that are put on the market these days lose much of their value within 2 years and may be completely irrelevant in 5. 

Well that’s what’s crazy about this idiotic hobby of mine. For instance, I was looking at some Red Scarlet-X videos earlier today and drooling. But some of them are 6-7 years old and by today’s standards look outdated. I’m afraid that the push for 4K, now 8K televisions and web distribution has forced a specific look onto the consumer and creator that is more about resolution than it is about artistic choice. Even looking at Red videos, you see more samples shot with the Sigma 18-35mm than you do with a Kowa or Lomo lens. The modern aesthetic has been force fed to us and if it isn’t crystal clear, a lot of folks do not like it.

[mercer]

With that being said, I don’t see how Micro 4/3 will be dead, especially the GH series. I can only imagine that the GH5 was Panasonic’s most popular camera, so I don’t see how they could abandon that market. However, with Panasonic’s embracing of video, I don’t see how they can continue to only offer contrast based AF. I also wonder if the resolution war will eventually be subsided by the Raw Video war. The first major manufacturer to offer internal Raw Video, even at 2K or up to 4K at up to 60p will have the other companies in a frenzy. You thought Panasonic’s 10bit inclusion was big, wait until they offer internal 12bit Raw. Of course, I think Canon may be the first to do it with RawLite.

[thebrothersthre3]

23 minutes ago, mercer said:

With that being said, I don’t see how Micro 4/3 will be dead, especially the GH series. I can only imagine that the GH5 was Panasonic’s most popular camera, so I don’t see how they could abandon that market. However, with Panasonic’s embracing of video, I don’t see how they can continue to only offer contrast based AF. I also wonder if the resolution war will eventually be subsided by the Raw Video war. The first major manufacturer to offer internal Raw Video, even at 2K or up to 4K at up to 60p will have the other companies in a frenzy. You thought Panasonic’s 10bit inclusion was big, wait until they offer internal 12bit Raw. Of course, I think Canon may be the first to do it with RawLite.

I'd like to see 14 bit prores/or some other compression. If M43 can offer that I'll be interested. GH5S with 14 bit prores, even in 1080 would be a winner for me. Probably not a selling point in general though unless its 4k. 

[Kisaha]

I know you said "a major manufacturer" but the P4K does it already, while look at the price point of Canon amd Sony that does that.

I do not want to derail the conversation, but we can't just ignore a camera like this.

It is funny thought the fact that most people do not even own a 10bit workflow, and dream of more bits already!

 

[webrunner5]

45 minutes ago, mercer said:

With that being said, I don’t see how Micro 4/3 will be dead, especially the GH series. I can only imagine that the GH5 was Panasonic’s most popular camera, so I don’t see how they could abandon that market. However, with Panasonic’s embracing of video, I don’t see how they can continue to only offer contrast based AF. I also wonder if the resolution war will eventually be subsided by the Raw Video war. The first major manufacturer to offer internal Raw Video, even at 2K or up to 4K at up to 60p will have the other companies in a frenzy. You thought Panasonic’s 10bit inclusion was big, wait until they offer internal 12bit Raw. Of course, I think Canon may be the first to do it with RawLite.

Yeah but Panasonic I think screwed themselves by charging so much for the GH5, GH5s. You have the X-T3, Z6, a7 III same price or cheaper. Really the EOS-R Should have been 2,000 bucks. What they going to come out with a GH6 for less money? I don't see how they can. I think they have boxed themselves in. Hard sell selling m4/3 cameras for FF prices in this day and age. You can still buy the Sony a7 new for 798 bucks!

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1008114-REG/sony_ilce7_b_a7_mirrorless_digital_camera.html

[mercer]

2 minutes ago, Kisaha said:

I know you said "a major manufacturer" but the P4K does it already, while look at the price point of Canon amd Sony that does that.

I do not want to derail the conversation, but we can't just ignore a camera like this.

It is funny thought the fact that most people do not even own a 10bit workflow, and dream of more bits already!

 

And yes, that’s why I said a major manufacturer to exclude BM from the equation because no matter how you look at it, it will take one model from Canon, Sony or Panasonic, even at a slightly higher price, to take the spotlight away from BM. The security of having a camera that has good battery life and an IR Cut Filter built into the stack with better ergonomics and AF and IBIS, or whatever, will go along way.

6 minutes ago, webrunner5 said:

Yeah but Panasonic I think screwed themselves by charging so much for the GH5, GH5s. You have the X-T3, Z6, a7 III same price or cheaper. Really the EOS-R Should have been 2,000 bucks. What they going to come out with a GH6 for less money? I don't see how they can. I think they have boxed themselves in. Hard sell selling m4/3 cameras for FF prices in this day and age.

Yeah I agree. The GH5 should have been priced at $1500 and the GH5s should have been $2000. Of course, I think Donal Trump once said... why charge $200 for an airplane ticket if the consumer will pay $500. Since the GH5 was a good seller, the price point may have been right. However, I don’t think they saw what was going to come out after and for the price that it did. Obviously, the P4K at $1299 is a big hit at Panasonic and the GH series because they are both aiming hard for the video market. But I think the real surprise was the X-T3. That was unprecedented with what was offered and why it is probably the camera of the year imo. 

[webrunner5]

BMD sure hasn't helped their cause with the roll out of the PK4 shipments wise. They done screwed up again! It could have been the camera of the year but it is still sort of Not shipping LoL.

[thebrothersthre3]

Wait is the pocket 4k 14 bit? Thought it was 12

[kye]

It's funny how people talk about the GH5, and GH5S and P4K in similar terms, to me the GH5 is in a different class of cameras because it has IBIS.  It might seem to be just another spec, but for anyone who needs to get usable hand-held shots it's practically the king.  That's why I bought one over the A7III, P4K, GH5S, EOS-R, Fuji XH-1, etc.  If I'd not needed IBIS then I would have been ordering the P4K like a shot.

The 'look' of high-quality older cameras is an interesting thing, and I know that @mercer and @webrunner5 have an eye for it.  I think I do as well, having ranked the cameras in the 2012 Zacuto Camera Challenge in descending order of price as a blind test, but I'm not sure what part of the look it is that I'm attuned to.  
I suspect that one aspect people often get attached to is that it doesn't look as real as modern cameras.  I've noticed that modern cameras and modern TVs look more real somehow, and to my eyes that hasn't been a good thing.  Watching TV soaps on the odd occasion I visit someone and the TV is on I am struck by how much it looks like normal people in a room rather than TV stars in a fictional world.  When previously you might have watched a show you're not familiar with for five minutes and come away with questions about the story or characters, now I'm left with impressions about how makeup needs to improve and the whole thing looks like a home video despite being shot professionally.  
I suspect that this comparison to how cinema used to look is simply one that younger generations just don't have, so they can't be using it as their benchmark.  I once read an article saying that the music you listen to at 14 years old is the music that you will like forever because at that age your stage of development and hormones and whatever make the things in your life at that time kind of baked-in, so they stay with you.  If you were 14 and mostly watching TV at home and going to the movies in a digital projection setup with THX everything, then that surreal and magical aesthetic of film just wouldn't be in your experience.

In terms of 10-bit or more workflows, look to the ML thread.  I shot test clips at 10, 12 and 14 bit RAW and compared them and decided that I could barely tell the difference between 10 and 12 bits.  ML aficionados with an eye for colour claimed 14-bits was the way to go, but acknowledged that 12-bits was almost as good and that shooting 14 was mostly because it was there and didn't cost them anything.  The difference between 8-bit from my XC10 and 10-bit from my GH5 is huge, 10-bit RAW would be better again due to the lack of compression, but I think 12-bit RAW or 14-bit RAW really aren't going to excite many people in a practical kind of way.

Lastly, @thebrothersthre3 the reputation of MFT matters to Panasonic.  If they don't reassure their MFT customers, the uncertainty might lead to some people switch to FF that would have stayed in MFT, which then would mean less customers for the GH6, devaluing the system and potentially causing a feedback loop that devalues the system.  Technology devalues in camera bodies, sure, but lens systems devalue at a different rate.  If you don't think that people care what their equipment is worth, have a read in the XC10 thread, and see how many people liked the camera and the image but sold it saying they couldn't keep an investment in a camera that was falling in value.

[thebrothersthre3]

I still think the smaller sensor size will be an advantage for a long time in terms of frame rates, stabilization, and size. I agree looks change with time but I also think different looks suit different projects. Say with a show like Stranger Things, which was very popular with young people, a modern look simply wouldn't work. 

[newfoundmass]

I think they're going to get a lot of flack for positioning their first full frame cameras as being directed towards photographers. Though I think this will change with time, I do wonder if there are tech limitations preventing them from focusing more on video. 

I'm quite happy with the GH5 and think Panasonic will continue to innovate as they have for the last couple of years. I think the sensor size is what has made that possible. The problem Panasonic will have is if / when the competitors can close the gap with their full frame capabilities. Take away Panasonic's advantage there and they're in a very bad position. Those 2 year old GH5 specs would've looked a lot less incredible if Sony or someone had been able to match them within a year. Instead though what we have is an inedible camera that's 2 years old and is still able to do a lot their competitors haven't been able to do and is arguably still the best camera on the market for its price range. 

[thebrothersthre3]

1 hour ago, newfoundmass said:

I think they're going to get a lot of flack for positioning their first full frame cameras as being directed towards photographers. Though I think this will change with time, I do wonder if there are tech limitations preventing them from focusing more on video. 

I'm quite happy with the GH5 and think Panasonic will continue to innovate as they have for the last couple of years. I think the sensor size is what has made that possible. The problem Panasonic will have is if / when the competitors can close the gap with their full frame capabilities. Take away Panasonic's advantage there and they're in a very bad position. Those 2 year old GH5 specs would've looked a lot less incredible if Sony or someone had been able to match them within a year. Instead though what we have is an inedible camera that's 2 years old and is still able to do a lot their competitors haven't been able to do and is arguably still the best camera on the market for its price range. 

Yeah the XT3 through a wrench in the Panasonic gear I think. Though IBIS is still a huge feature on the GH5. IBIS with 10bit 422 is not something found anywhere else, well I guess on the Nikon Z6 and Ninja.

[newfoundmass]

I think Fuji, out of everyone, might be the next leader of innovation given how quickly they've caught up. They're so close to hitting a home run with their video offerings. 

I'm also encouraged that it's Nikon, of all the companies, that has worked with Atomos to unlock RAW. That's a huge development. 

[thebrothersthre3]

If they put as much innovation into the XH2 as they did the XT3, we'll have a real winner. 

[kye]

10 hours ago, thebrothersthre3 said:

If they put as much innovation into the XH2 as they did the XT3, we'll have a real winner. 

I agree.

The other part of this equation is to remember the bigger picture.  For me, that means lenses.  

I think a lot of people were Canon or Nikon shooters, and invested in that glass.  Then the combination of GH line of cameras, the small size of Panasonic and Olympus m43 cameras for travel, and the lacklustre video quality from CaNikon might have tempted many away from CaNikon to m43 and investing in that lens system.  At the start of that progression Fuji was no-where for video (that I'm aware of anyway) and so m43 might have stolen some video shooters from them too.  

Now what we're talking about is Fuji releasing an excellent offering for video and supposedly all the m43 users will change systems?  Or that the CaNikon users who didn't change when the GH line had 4K and CaNikon had 720p will somehow be tempted by Fuji?  For me, it will take Fuji releasing a string of solid and really superior camera offerings, and not releasing a bad one, before people will shift in any great numbers, and although they've hit a good combo with the XT-3, the Pocket 4K (and potentially GH6) is keeping m43 people interested, Nikon getting RAW will keep Nikon people interested, who knows what Canon is doing to keep their video users but it's still working, and Sony are releasing cameras at break-neck speed with a long-anticipated A7SIII in the wings, not to mention Panasonic who will likely announce 8K in FF and Sharp who already have for m43.

If Fuji are going to keep from being an also-run in video they're going to have to go 8K, RAW, or deliver the exact combination of features that everyone wants and no-one else provides, or a combination of both.

Personally, I think it's a great time to go to full-manual FF lenses with adapters, that way you're not trapped in a system.