EOSHD Opinion - The Sony A6400 is an absolute turkey

[Mokara]

55 minutes ago, thebrothersthre3 said:

IBIS would have made sense in this supposed vlogging camera. But yeah they are saving money while delivering a subpar product IMO.

It basically competes with the M50, which also has horrible RS in 4K (plus, AF in the M50 is crippled in 4K mode). It occupies the same market space.

[Snowbro]

14 minutes ago, thebrothersthre3 said:

haha, I have to say the auto focus does look wonderful tho. Oh well, I am still happy with my Fuji, its to the point where its good enough.

I saw a demo of it and when it lost the eyes, it jumped to the background

[thebrothersthre3]

17 minutes ago, Mokara said:

It basically competes with the M50, which also has horrible RS in 4K (plus, AF in the M50 is crippled in 4K mode). It occupies the same market space.

Yeah only the M50 is $500 and probably has more usable 1080p. 


Not sure about eye AF but tracking of those skate dudes looked great.

[newfoundmass]

These cameras baffle me because cameras like the G85, which is going to be 3 years old, is by far a better "bang for your buck" camera for vlogging and an excellent b-cam for the GH5. Granted I suppose if you're already in the Sony ecosystem you're less likely to pick up a Panasonic MFT camera, but still, it's amazing how uninspired Sony has been when it comes to their APSC line compared to Panasonic and their MFT lines that have really pushed boundaries. Heck the G85 will be 3 years old this year and still does a lot of things better than new cameras. As time passes, and more offerings are made, my fondness for the little G85 grows because of how much it can do. 

[sanveer]

Sony with it's various models and the A7 iii specifically, has ensures that there is a:

1. Serious price correction with some serious features (dual card, IBIS, PDAF and superb autofocus, log, 14-bit RAW, 14.7 Stops of Dynamic Range, excellent battery life, 4k that probably is as detailed as 6k, good low light, Log+HLG, 10fps continuous etc). 2k has become the price for cameras that may have been at the $2500-3500 price range previously. So 2k is basically the benchmark price, pushing all camera prices southward with it, ensuring that cameras with less features like non-PDAF (or less hardware specs like smaller sensor size) become a hardsell. 

2. Lots of models being updated, targeting the majority of the market, and almost all manufacturers.

3. Turn around cycle seems to be getting shorter. While this may not seem to apply to all (Sony) models, it is beginning with many models and seems to be trickling down to all, eventually. This will also put pressure on other manufacturers, especially those that have a slower product cycle update time.

Sony also specifically mentioned that the 30min time limit is a factor that might go in 2019 due to the change in some-stone age European Union laws (hopefully none of their cameras blow up due to overheating though). So that would be another thing users of the new cameras can look forward to (unlimited recording time). 

This actually puts a lot more pressure on the GH6 (limiting it's pricing to 2k or less), and the S1 (keep its price too in the 2-2.5 range), as well as All New camera models (the reason for the price revision of A6400) that are expected this year and probably the next.

The XT3 seems pretty amazing for the price, and the only thing it seems to be lacking is IBIS. If it did have IBIS, it would have made it difficult to justify buying most other cameras this year (or the last year's last few weeks).

Sony has also ensured that (its) Full Frame is eating into all ILC Markets from M43 to Medium Format. It's a scary trend that will send many manufacturers much faster to the grave. But it seems like it's giving customers more and bett r options and lot more bang for the buck. 

[thebrothersthre3]

27 minutes ago, sanveer said:

Sony with it's various models and the A7 iii specifically, has ensures that there is a:

1. Serious price correction with some serious features (dual card, IBIS, PDAF and superb autofocus, log, 14-bit RAW, 14.7 Stops of Dynamic Range, excellent battery life, 4k that probably is as detailed as 6k, good low light, Log+HLG, 10fps continuous etc). 2k has become the price for cameras that may have been at the $2500-3500 price range previously. So 2k is basically the benchmark price, pushing all camera prices southward with it, ensuring that cameras with less features like non-PDAF (or less hardware specs like smaller sensor size) become a hardsell. 

2. Lots of models being updated, targeting the majority of the market, and almost all manufacturers.

3. Turn around cycle seems to be getting shorter. While this may not seem to apply to all (Sony) models, it is beginning with many models and seems to be trickling down to all, eventually. This will also put pressure on other manufacturers, especially those that have a slower product cycle update time.

Sony also specifically mentioned that the 30min time limit is a factor that might go in 2019 due to the change in some-stone age European Union laws (hopefully none of their cameras blow up due to overheating though). So that would be another thing users of the new cameras can look forward to (unlimited recording time). 

This actually puts a lot more pressure on the GH6 (limiting it's pricing to 2k or less), and the S1 (keep its price too in the 2-2.5 range), as well as All New camera models (the reason for the price revision of A6400) that are expected this year and probably the next.

The XT3 seems pretty amazing for the price, and the only thing it seems to be lacking is IBIS. If it did have IBIS, it would have made it difficult to justify buying most other cameras this year (or the last year's last few weeks).

Sony has also ensured that (its) Full Frame is eating into all ILC Markets from M43 to Medium Format. It's a scary trend that will send many manufacturers much faster to the grave. But it seems like it's giving customers more and bett r options and lot more bang for the buck. 

I am not so sure about the 2K price thing. The A7III is nice, but its their base model. We've already heard rumors about the S3 costing $3000, as well as rumors of panasonics full frame cameras costing above 2k, even rumors of the A7000 costing 2k, which is higher then previous aps-c models. Hard to tell at this point. 

[Snowbro]

1 hour ago, thebrothersthre3 said:

haha, I have to say the auto focus does look wonderful tho. Oh well, I am still happy with my Fuji, its to the point where its good enough.

I set the xt3 to have an AF & AWB lock on press. That made the camera fine for me

[thebrothersthre3]

29 minutes ago, Snowbro said:

I set the xt3 to have an AF & AWB lock on press. That made the camera fine for me

How does that help with auto focus?

[Snowbro]

It helps it not hunt and jump in & out of focus randomly sometimes. I found that to be preferable to manually focusing, which wasn't completely accurate with peaking anyhow. 

[frontfocus]

Take a look at the thumbnail/preview picture of the first video. He is using the 18-135mm lens but the display shows f/1.8

So it‘s clearly edited, either by him or Sony marketing. Doesn‘t change the rs though xD

[sanveer]

3 hours ago, thebrothersthre3 said:

I am not so sure about the 2K price thing. The A7III is nice, but its their base model. We've already heard rumors about the S3 costing $3000, as well as rumors of panasonics full frame cameras costing above 2k, even rumors of the A7000 costing 2k, which is higher then previous aps-c models. Hard to tell at this point. 

Low Light ALONE won't help the S3/Siii, if the A7iii has lots of other advantages over it, even if it does like 1Million ISO. I am guessing that is WHY Sony is waiting to finalise about what all they can add to the S3, comparing it with similarly prices Full Frame cameras as well as protecting their cinema camcorder line-up (FS Series), instead of bothering what Panasonic does (that is the reason why they didn't introduce 10-bit video until now). I don't think the A7000 will be 2k. It would be more on the lines of 1.5k, directly targeting the XT3 with maybe more dynamic range and possibly the Next Generation Video Codec (XEVC which will replace XAVC, a codec that will most likely make it to the S3 in 10-bit internal). The S3 could have limitless recording and dual cards for proxy or something else. I also suspect the resolution may be bumped up on the S3, or it could have a Quad Bayer equivalent (8.9 and 36 for juggling between exception quality 4k and good quality stills. The A6400 does seem to have (much?) better low light (I am guessing also better dynamic range), much faster autofocus in every mode (than every other camera in its price range), the 180° rotating screen (the Mic issue can easily be solved with a small and cheap L-bracket), better LCD etc. I am guessing (or hoping), that some of the cameras introduced by Sony may get the new XEVC codec visa firmware update. 

Also the same applies to Panasonic. The S1 series will probably never best the Sonys for autofocus and low light (even dynamic range may be similar if not lower). So, Panasonic will have to figure out where they may have an advantage. The success of a lot of other manufacturers too was because Sony was lazy and overpriced. Something the A7iii seems to have addreased and something that Sony is changing well across its entire line-up. And if the new XEVC is introduced soon, that too may make it harder for everyone else.

[aldolega]

I agree that the A7III is the reference point for pricing, and probably will be for another 6-9 months, but it's not a perfect camera and comparisons can never be absolute. If the XT3 had IBIS I feel it could and would comfortably sell for almost $2k, even with the A7III and Z6 right there with bigger sensors.

The A7SIII being $3k would be a pleasant surprise, at launch the A7S was $3200 and the A7SII was $3400, if I remember correctly. The only way I see the A7SIII being less than $3400-3500 is if they skimp on a feature or two (say, no 10-bit anything, and no new codec. Or if they stay at 12MP).

The A7000 costing the same or more than the A7III makes total sense, assuming it's got the high-end specs that outclass the A7III. The 7DII cost the same or a bit more than the 6D, same with the D500 and D610.

I expect the A7000 and A7SIII will be pretty similar specswise (new sensors, 4K60 8 bit, possibly 10bit out but I doubt it, probably the same old h264 100mbps codec, third-gen body/battery, nice EVF and screen, new AF from the A6400), with mostly the sensor size differentiating them. $2000-2200 and $3400-3600.

I don't see the new HEVC codec making it into the Alpha cameras anytime soon, the broadcast/cinema divisions will demand to have a year or two with it to themselves. I think 10-bit HDMI is the most we can reasonably expect in the next generation.

[tweak]

8 hours ago, IronFilm said:

It exists. Is called "the Panasonic G85".

G85 Autofocus sucks (it sucks on GH5 as well, I have one). 
EOSm50 DPAF is a game changer for vloggers, my partner couldn't give a toss about 4K (or IQ much in general), she just wants reliable AF and a file she can edit on a regular laptop computer (same as most other vloggers out there).

For the reccord I would never buy an EOSm50 as my sole camera, but I'm not a vlogger  .

4 hours ago, Mokara said:

It basically competes with the M50, which also has horrible RS in 4K (plus, AF in the M50 is crippled in 4K mode). It occupies the same market space.

Most regular people don't vlog in 4K (even Casey doesn't anymore). EOSm50 autofocus in 1080p is amazing.

4 hours ago, newfoundmass said:

These cameras baffle me because cameras like the G85, which is going to be 3 years old, is by far a better "bang for your buck" camera for vlogging and an excellent b-cam for the GH5. Granted I suppose if you're already in the Sony ecosystem you're less likely to pick up a Panasonic MFT camera, but still, it's amazing how uninspired Sony has been when it comes to their APSC line compared to Panasonic and their MFT lines that have really pushed boundaries. Heck the G85 will be 3 years old this year and still does a lot of things better than new cameras. As time passes, and more offerings are made, my fondness for the little G85 grows because of how much it can do. 

Vloggers want reliable autofocus unfortunately. I'd agree a G85 is a much nicer camera otherwise, but it's falls short in the one key feature in which most vloggers care about most.

p.s. Also if you've ever used an m50 you'd see how intuitive and helpful it is to use for people who aren't super into cameras. The scene specific timelapse modes is also a great touch.

[sanveer]

9 minutes ago, aldolega said:

I agree that the A7III is the reference point for pricing, and probably will be for another 6-9 months, but it's not a perfect camera and comparisons can never be absolute. If the XT3 had IBIS I feel it could and would comfortably sell for almost $2k, even with the A7III and Z6 right there with bigger sensors.

The Sony cameras have an autofocus advantage. The 10-bit video in the XT3 is a true game changer though. Like I mentioned above, some of the Sonys this year (A7siii?) could get the new codec as well as 10-bit internal.

 

10 minutes ago, aldolega said:

The A7SIII being $3k would be a pleasant surprise, at launch the A7S was $3200 and the A7SII was $3400, if I remember correctly. The only way I see the A7SIII being less than $3400-3500 is if they skimp on a feature or two (say, no 10-bit anything, and no new codec. Or if they stay at 12MP). Personally I think they're going to be closer to $4k.

I could be wrong but the sheer number of the A7iii cameras being sold makes up for the smaller profit margins. Also Sony had realised it's cheaper and better for sales to have a few large launch parties with all the online social influencers given the new camera(s) with a few lenses thrown in, access to high speed Wi-Fi and travel, food, drinks and stay on the house. That seems to be one of the major reasons for the success of the A7iii (apart from it being a fantastic camera).

 

12 minutes ago, aldolega said:

The A7000 costing the same or more than the A7III makes total sense, assuming it's got the high-end specs that outclass the A7III. The 7DII cost the same or a bit more than the 6D, same with the D500 and D610.

The A7000 wouldn't cost more. It has a smaller, lower dynamic range and way more specialised, instead of being the all rounder that the A7iii is. The Canon 7Dii costing more is because it is better for sports and other photography. The 6D is just a lousy and confused Full Frame. It's like a donkey with a shave, that has been forcibly entered in a derby for purebred Arabian horses.

 

15 minutes ago, aldolega said:

I expect the A7000 and A7SIII will be pretty similar specswise (new sensors, 4K60 8 bit, possibly 10bit out but I doubt it, probably the same old h264 100mbps codec, third-gen body/battery, nice EVF and screen, new AF from the A6400), with mostly the sensor size differentiating them. $2000-2200 and $3400-3600.

Not by a long shot. Sony is confused about many things, but, specs and pricing aren't some of them.  Also, thank God, that unlike Nikon and Canon, they don't give customers a single Card Slot or take away IBIS or disable 10-bit internal or some other BS.

 

[nigelbb]

11 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

This cut-price unimaginative attempt to corner the Vlogger market is a load of shit.

I find it difficult to believe that the Vlogger market actually exists. Are there really a significant number of people who want to buy a camera just to post on YouTube compared to all the other people would buy a camera to take pictures of the kids or whatever?

[Adam Kuźniar]

3 minutes ago, nigelbb said:

I find it difficult to believe that the Vlogger market actually exists. Are there really a significant number of people who want to buy a camera just to post on YouTube compared to all the other people would buy a camera to take pictures of the kids or whatever?

"Vlogger" group constitutes of people who shoot videos of their kids too. 

[tweak]

24 minutes ago, nigelbb said:

I find it difficult to believe that the Vlogger market actually exists. Are there really a significant number of people who want to buy a camera just to post on YouTube compared to all the other people would buy a camera to take pictures of the kids or whatever?

I thought the same, but then I realised there's actually a ton of people who are aspiring vloggers and/or buy a camera with the hope that one day they will "vlog" with it. It also has a lot of overlap with your average family shooter, they want similar things IMO.

[nigelbb]

12 minutes ago, tweak said:

I thought the same, but then I realised there's actually a ton of people who are aspiring vloggers and/or buy a camera with the hope that one day they will "vlog" with it. It also has a lot of overlap with your average family shooter, they want similar things IMO.

I guess that having a camera as a step up from a phone that the average family shooter expects to be able to take video selfies.

[Marcio Kabke Pinheiro]

1 hour ago, nigelbb said:

I find it difficult to believe that the Vlogger market actually exists. Are there really a significant number of people who want to buy a camera just to post on YouTube compared to all the other people would buy a camera to take pictures of the kids or whatever?

All my friends that are consulting me about cameras are asking for camera to vlogging, tutorials or to film their kids. None for stills - these usually buy a Canon T5/T6 or a Nikon D3xxx/Dxxxx with a kit lens, without asking.

And for the first group, the most wanted feature is good AF - never even consider to use manual AF. If Sony nailed it in the A6400, they could have a very good seller (external mic could be used with a bracket without covering the screen - and a lot of vloggers use lavaliers).

[BasiliskFilm]

Sony still sells shedloads of the A6000, so I think that is the target market for this. From a serious video point of view, I would look on this only for pointers to where the next prosumer models may be going. It is aimed at the sub $1000 market, and at this level all the kit zooms have stabilisation anyway. Sony often starts their upgrade rollouts with the cheapest, best selling models - remember when the A5000 had better quality 1080p video than the more expensive models? The higher end version will be along soon. Animal eye-AF - I would love that! Come on Nikon, keep up...