Canon EOS R - The Sum Is Larger Than Its Parts

[DBounce]

Over the past few weeks I have spent a lot of time with the Canon EOS R. I have also spent a lot of time with Nikons new Z6. On paper the Nikon Z6 would appear to have the EOS R beat dead to rights. And in all fairness to the Nikon, the 4k output from the Z6 is more detailed, sharper and cleaner at higher ISO than what the Canon can manage. So case closed then... an easy win for the Nikon, Canon fanboys go home! Well, not so fast... the problem is that for all of these specs, when viewed side by side... the exact same scene shot on the Canon EOS R just seems more organic. More filmic... in all honesty, it feels more cinematic. 

Most here know that I have long praised the Nikon for its strengths... and rightly so. It's one hell of a camera. But when looking at the same scene, shot on both the Nikon and Canon, I can tell you, there is something magical about the Canon footage. I caught myself constantly trying to make the Nikon footage more like the EOS R. I thought softening a sharp image would be a simple matter of adding in a diffusion filter. But in practice nothing I did could duplicate the effortless organic vibe of the Canon. It's not the sharpest, but it is clear and in focus; softer by default, and frankly in a world filled with over-sharpened footage I find it refreshing. The color out of the EOS R look great. You need do very little if anything to the files. But if you shoot in C-Log, there is ample data to play with. Better yet if you output to the Ninja V in 10 bit. 

While it might not make sense... and you would be right to argue that the Nikon is superior... none of that changes the fact that the Canon produces a nicer image. Even when it gets noisy the noise looks more like film grain than noise. 

Between the two, both are fairly easy to use, granted, there is a learning curve if switching from one brand to the other. But nothing that bad. I find the Canon's menus to be better, but that might be just because I am use to Canon. I will say that the Canon's controls are arranged to be easier to use from in front of the camera. The flippy screen is also a big plus. The crop did bother me at first, but I don't favor wide shots so it was not a deal breaker, and for those times that call for more FOV, I can easily adapt one of my wide angle lenses.

In the end you have a choice to make... Go with the spec sheet, and get a superior camera; or pick the one that delivers more cinematic footage. For me the choice was difficult until I stepped back and looked at the output from both cameras. Once I did that the choice was clear. Canon wins again. I'm not sure how they managed it. But perhaps that's part of the magic.

 

[thebrothersthre3]

You returning the Nikon? So far still happy with my Fuji, can't see anything replacing it. I have thought about getting a Canon 5d 3 with ML tho

[DBounce]

39 minutes ago, thebrothersthre3 said:

You returning the Nikon? So far still happy with my Fuji, can't see anything replacing it. I have thought about getting a Canon 5d 3 with ML tho

The Nikon is great... better than the Canon in many ways; but in the end... for me, the Canon fits my artistic style better. So I parted ways with the Nikon. It was a tough choice, but it seemed like having both would complicate matters. Sometimes having too many options can work against you.

@thebrothersthre3 the Fuji is a fantastic camera. I thoroughly enjoyed mine... up until they died. Had I not had bad luck with my examples, I would no doubt still have them. They were tons of fun to shoot with.

[webrunner5]

Well the EOS-R has to be a no brainer with matching your C200, 1DX mk II, and being able to use the same lenses. I think you did the right thing. Plus you are right, certain Canon products do seem magic at times. Just imagine if they didn't hold back.

[DBounce]

23 minutes ago, webrunner5 said:

Well the EOS-R has to be a no brainer with matching your C200, 1DX mk II, and being able to use the same lenses. I think you did the right thing. Plus you are right, certain Canon products do seem magic at times. Just imagine if they didn't hold back.

Yeah, it really is infuriating the way they selectively withhold features, and then give idiotic reasons why they couldn’t add it.

Hopefully the new offerings from Nikon, Sony and Fuji will force Canon to unshackle their mirrorless offerings.

[thebrothersthre3]

7 minutes ago, DBounce said:

Yeah, it really is infuriating the way they selectively withhold features, and then give idiotic reasons why they couldn’t add it.

Hopefully the new offerings from Nikon, Sony and Fuji will force Canon to unshackle their mirrorless offerings.

It sounds like the EOS R was like a base model, so I am sure they'll be putting out something else this year. 

I heard rumors about a 100mp IBIS camera, though that doesn't really sound video orientated. 

[Django]

11 hours ago, DBounce said:

The Nikon is great... better than the Canon in many ways; but in the end... for me, the Canon fits my artistic style better. So I parted ways with the Nikon. It was a tough choice, but it seemed like having both would complicate matters. Sometimes having too many options can work against you.

 

Damn so you went from Fuji, to Nikon...and back to Canon in a matter of weeks/months huh? you must have good return policy!

Must have been a though choice for sure, especially with the big Nikon firmware announcement..

I've been through a lot of system changes myself and at one point had Canon, Fuji, Nikon & Sony all at the same time! Felt kinda schizophrenic tbh.

Things changed when i got my C100 and decided to go multicam with the 5D as a B-cam. I then realized the strength of remaining in one ecosystem.

So when EOS R was announced it was kinda a no brainer for me.

That said with all the fierce competition & backlash against Canon, it hasn't been an easy choice to defend.

The limitations/flaws are real but the ergonomics, DPAF, C-log, color science & overall cinematic IQ do make up for them imo.

As a sole all-in-one camera, i don't know though.. but as part of a MILC/DSLR/Cine combo cam trifecta, it's kind of the only game in town.

[wolf33d]

For someone who owns a C200 and 1DXII and films his face then yeah, the EOS R makes a lot of sense. You can use the same lens, easy to match in post, the colors right out of the box need less grading than let's say a Sony. You don't need wide angle and you have little to no movement and you do not use slowmo (on the EOSR, you have the 1DX for that). So yeah that's a lot of sense. 

Now someone like me who is not into one ecosystem, who needs wide angle (mountain/extreme sports/landscape shooting) 80% of the time, who needs slowmo, and who needs decent RS due to action well, the EOS-R is garbage, even for $500 I would not get one. 
And while I am a specific case, I think most video oriented people do want decent RS, use their lenses without 1.7 crop and a lot do want slowmo too. So overall objectively this camera is an epic fail. 

It's very good that it cant fit the need of a minority of people and specific use for sure. Hopefully they will release something with 4K60P and no crop. I love Canon bodies and ergonomics. My first ever DSLR was a Canon. I then owned the 5D2 and 5D3, at which point the competition started to be much much better. 

[thebrothersthre3]

3 hours ago, wolf33d said:

For someone who owns a C200 and 1DXII and films his face then yeah, the EOS R makes a lot of sense. You can use the same lens, easy to match in post, the colors right out of the box need less grading than let's say a Sony. You don't need wide angle and you have little to no movement and you do not use slowmo (on the EOSR, you have the 1DX for that). So yeah that's a lot of sense. 

Now someone like me who is not into one ecosystem, who needs wide angle (mountain/extreme sports/landscape shooting) 80% of the time, who needs slowmo, and who needs decent RS due to action well, the EOS-R is garbage, even for $500 I would not get one. 
And while I am a specific case, I think most video oriented people do want decent RS, use their lenses without 1.7 crop and a lot do want slowmo too. So overall objectively this camera is an epic fail. 

It's very good that it cant fit the need of a minority of people and specific use for sure. Hopefully they will release something with 4K60P and no crop. I love Canon bodies and ergonomics. My first ever DSLR was a Canon. I then owned the 5D2 and 5D3, at which point the competition started to be much much better. 

Yeah seems like its a good b cam, vlog camera, or camera for someone that does mostly photography. 

[ntblowz]

For me a7iii works fine as b cam to c200, too much compromise on EOS-R for me. 

 

But if you are happy with EOS-R then it’s good for you as we all have different preferences and stuff, there is no one camera to rule them all.

 

[webrunner5]

Santa was Damn good to you!

[Emanuel]

20 hours ago, DBounce said:

Over the past few weeks I have spent a lot of time with the Canon EOS R. I have also spent a lot of time with Nikons new Z6. On paper the Nikon Z6 would appear to have the EOS R beat dead to rights. And in all fairness to the Nikon, the 4k output from the Z6 is more detailed, sharper and cleaner at higher ISO than what the Canon can manage. So case closed then... an easy win for the Nikon, Canon fanboys go home! Well, not so fast... the problem is that for all of these specs, when viewed side by side... the exact same scene shot on the Canon EOS R just seems more organic. More filmic... in all honesty, it feels more cinematic.

LOL

[Django]

People can LOL all they want but I think it really takes shooting & working with the EOS R footage to appreciate it.. or not. But until then, a spec sheet isn't going to give you the full picture. And again as part of an ecosystem it makes total sense.

We shoot Sony at work and personally, I'm not at all a fan of matching my Canon gear with the A7III etc.. I'd rather rent an FS5/7. And even then its a bit annoying because Sony keep changing their colour science. Canon has done so too but at least gives you the option on EOS R to choose in between original C100/C300 log & the newer C200/C300II log colour matrix. Its little details like that which make life easier. I hate losing time in post with that type of stuff..

[DBounce]

3 hours ago, ntblowz said:

For me a7iii works fine as b cam to c200, too much compromise on EOS-R for me. 

 

But if you are happy with EOS-R then it’s good for you as we all have different preferences and stuff, there is no one camera to rule them all.

 

The Sony is a great camera. It really comes down to personal taste. The important thing to me is that the gear does not get in the way of your creative vision. 

7 hours ago, wolf33d said:

For someone who owns a C200 and 1DXII and films his face then yeah, the EOS R makes a lot of sense. You can use the same lens, easy to match in post, the colors right out of the box need less grading than let's say a Sony. You don't need wide angle and you have little to no movement and you do not use slowmo (on the EOSR, you have the 1DX for that). So yeah that's a lot of sense. 

Now someone like me who is not into one ecosystem, who needs wide angle (mountain/extreme sports/landscape shooting) 80% of the time, who needs slowmo, and who needs decent RS due to action well, the EOS-R is garbage, even for $500 I would not get one. 
And while I am a specific case, I think most video oriented people do want decent RS, use their lenses without 1.7 crop and a lot do want slowmo too. So overall objectively this camera is an epic fail. 

It's very good that it cant fit the need of a minority of people and specific use for sure. Hopefully they will release something with 4K60P and no crop. I love Canon bodies and ergonomics. My first ever DSLR was a Canon. I then owned the 5D2 and 5D3, at which point the competition started to be much much better. 

I'm on the same page with you on the crop... and I don't know who Canon thinks they are fooling... we all know they are full of shit when they say they cannot output 4k without a crop. And if that is the case, isn't Nikon making Canon look dumb right about now? There can be little doubt that the day is fast approaching when Canon will have to start anteing up with features. 

[Django]

Well Sony has been doing FF 4K without crop since A7SII (2016) and 6K supersampled 4K no crop since A9 (2017) so if anyone is making them look bad its Sony (they supply Nikon & Fuji with their sensors btw).

It's painfully obvious Canon are lagging behind in the sensor department. No BSI. No FF 4K. Average DR.

As the recent interview on IR confronted them on that, they're only response was "we're aware of it. we're working on it". 

We'll just have to wait & see. It's certainly an embarrassment at the moment..

Canon are certainly smart about their segmentation though. They've stated upfront EOS R isn't a replacement to their DSLRs & Cine cams but rather a companion to them (hence not pushing for a better sensor than 5DIV/1DX2).

Sony are more individualists, they believe in making as many different cams for individual segments (R series, S series, A9, A6..)

Nikon seem to follow that approach with the Z6/Z7 (one is more oriented towards video, the other still shooters).

[Emanuel]

5 hours ago, Django said:

People can LOL all they want but I think it really takes shooting & working with the EOS R footage to appreciate it.. or not. But until then, a spec sheet isn't going to give you the full picture. And again as part of an ecosystem it makes total sense.

We shoot Sony at work and personally, I'm not at all a fan of matching my Canon gear with the A7III etc.. I'd rather rent an FS5/7. And even then its a bit annoying because Sony keep changing their colour science. Canon has done so too but at least gives you the option on EOS R to choose in between original C100/C300 log & the newer C200/C300II log colour matrix. Its little details like that which make life easier. I hate losing time in post with that type of stuff..

People can misunderstand a LOL, no? Hey @BenEricson too, isn't it? Not that a forum post is important. I've always disliked final judgements, you know why? Because who pronounces them gives to the world a sad idea about them. On both. Prejudgements, bad judgements, misconceptions and alike, as well, who is entitled to have them.

That LOL is for those who think who had the hint and failed to get it.

We are all entitled to have opinion, the point is when reality pops up as a bitch to theirs.

When we think we know anything, we can end to be surprised the one we think is the one is actually the other one.

In short, it doesn't surprise me this Canon's or any other device may happen to be more cinematic than some mainstream. What does it mean?

 

Next time you shoot, wonder why someone is reacting in a certain way or at least ask, before you think you have the clue the target is.

 

 

"That which we persist in doing becomes easier for us to do -- not that the nature of the thing is changed, but that our power to do is increased."

~ Ralph Waldo Emerson

: -)

[Snowbro]

Canon was caught having unacceptable DR, then they fixed it in the 5d iv. Since they have publicly stated they are aware that they have to make their 4k better, I bet they will get it within 10% of the competition this year. They usually follow Nikon & vise versa. I guarantee if their spies hadn't told them nikon was releasing a mirrorless, they wouldnt have put out the eos r, which clearly wasnt ready yet. 

[DBounce]

@Django yes, I’m aware that Sony had many first, but I’m also aware that Canon gives not a fck what Sony does... but if Nikon does something they standup and pay attention.

[wolf33d]

1 hour ago, Snowbro said:

Canon was caught having unacceptable DR, then they fixed it in the 5d iv. Since they have publicly stated they are aware that they have to make their 4k better, I bet they will get it within 10% of the competition this year. They usually follow Nikon & vise versa. I guarantee if their spies hadn't told them nikon was releasing a mirrorless, they wouldnt have put out the eos r, which clearly wasnt ready yet. 

They did not really fixed it with the 5DIV. It's still a full stop behind the competition which is not what I call fixed. It's just that in comparison to what they did before (their FF sensors with no better DR than a M43 sensor, which was really ridiculous) it's much better. Much better than absolute shit does not mean it is great, at all. 

By the time they are "within 10% of the competition" and release 4K with little to no crop, the competition will be 4K60P no crop 10 bit internal already, and so on. 

[Snowbro]

Well, the competition has been behind the 4k 60 in the 1DX ii for 3 years & counting ?