BMPCC Preorder

[Bruno]

This is funny:

 

https://vimeo.com/68895788 0:50

 

"Uhhhh...I will believe, you may, uhhh, probably you, you will see them in July for sure. Okay? Especially the Pocket Cinema Camera."

 

:D

 

40 days and 40 nights won't be enough to get the 4K cam into the stores. Try six months or more. But the "Pocket" (whose pocket can fit that?) camera probably does show up in limited quantity and with limited functionality for the first year. I would much rather have a GH2/GH3 if I wanted to use MFT...much better sensors, much more mature product. Or the RX100 for true pocketability. Note that you don't get a free full version of Resolve with the Pocket Cam, which is all the original BMCC owners really have for their money at this point just a few months after finally receiving the product.

 

Not sure why the pessimism, it's good news that things are on track, even if it takes a couple weeks more to get cameras into stores, I don't see why it should take 6 months to ship anything in any part of the world to any other part of the world at this day and age.

 

Comparing the BMPCP to the RX100 is a bit silly, they both have roughly the same sensor size, but the BMD camera shoots raw and allows for interchangeable lenses, including quality 16mm cine lenses, which you can't use on any of the other BMCC, the RX100 or even the GH2/GH3. Being able to shoot both prores and raw makes a much more able video camera than any of the ones you mentioned, and th $995 price tag makes any downsides not that relevant really.

[peederj]

Not sure why the pessimism, it's good news that things are on track, even if it takes a couple weeks more to get cameras into stores, I don't see why it should take 6 months to ship anything in any part of the world to any other part of the world at this day and age.

 

Comparing the BMPCP to the RX100 is a bit silly, they both have roughly the same sensor size, but the BMD camera shoots raw and allows for interchangeable lenses, including quality 16mm cine lenses, which you can't use on any of the other BMCC, the RX100 or even the GH2/GH3. Being able to shoot both prores and raw makes a much more able video camera than any of the ones you mentioned, and th $995 price tag makes any downsides not that relevant really.

 

I will be shocked if the 4K camera appears in quantity (>1000 units) this year. In fact I wonder if BMD is more desperate for preorder money than credibility at this point, steadfastly refusing to learn from last year's lessons.

 

Anyway the RX100 soundly defeats the BMD Pocket in:

• Stabilization (very useful for a camera that will nearly always be shot handheld by definition)
• True pocketability (again, whose pocket can fit any MFT cam with a lens on it? The RX100 slips into virtually anything worthy of being called a "pocket") and action mountability (between the MFT size/weight and the GoPro)
• Ready-to-shoot cost (you can add a cheap grip and a magfilter adapter to your $650 RX100, your total RTS price will be at least double when adding a comparably usable lens to a BMD)
• Moire and Aliasing (OK the RX100 does have a noisy blue channel, but that's more fixable than awful rainbow moire)
• Product Maturity (we have yet to see the ugly details on the Pocket cam in practice, but prior experience from BMD's first-ever camera wasn't promising)
• Stills quality (20MP quite DSLR-like RAW stills on the RX100, 10 times the resolution of the BMD, plus tiltable built-in flash)
• HFR Frame rate (50 or 60p depending on your region, very useful for action and stabilization too)
• Automation (real-time autofocus and autoexposure, very useful again for run-n-gun, and it also offers full manual mode)

Would I trade my RX100 and Hero 3 black and cash for a BMD Pocket and an MFT zoom lens? Would I awkwardly pretend to be a "real filmmaker" on the cheap, throwing big cash at expensive manual MFT primes and absurdly rigging out some little toy streaked with moire? Do I buy yet another hypewave from the overpromise-and-underdeliver BMD and sit in preorder purgatory for a year? Not only no, hell no.

[Jacek]

Not only no, hell no.

 

So you convinced yourself bmpcc is not for you ;).
 You can now relax.

[Andrew Reid]

In fact I wonder if BMD is more desperate for preorder money than credibility at this point, steadfastly refusing to learn from last year's lessons.

 

Said it before and I'll say it again - BMD don't take any pre-order money. The dealer does!

 

And yes sadly I'll be surprised if the 4K model ships in quantity.

 

I'm very excited about the Pocket.

 

I've still got my preorder on it open with CVP and today bought a Bolex camera with 3 Xenons on it, so very much looking forward to giving it some tasty c-mount glass.

 

Julian's thread on the glass is fantastic and I will be featuring it on the front page this week.

[HurtinMinorKey]

I'd say we don't see the BMPC until the Fall, but when we do see it, I think it will be provided in ample quality. You have to figure that BM has learned something from their go-around with the BMCC.

 

 

 

 Note that you don't get a free full version of Resolve with the Pocket Cam, which is all the original BMCC owners really have for their money at this point just a few months after finally receiving the product.

 

 

Yah, because there are soooo many better options out there for the price.... :lol:.

 

Wouldn't trade mine for anything, and I had to wait all of 4 days to get it.  Of course other people have had horror stories, and i'm sure there are some people out there who prefer the 5D3 hack to owing a BMCC, but let's not pretend that the BMCC's been made obsolete before it ever got off the launch pad. That honor has been reserved for the c500.

 

 

[Bruno]

I will be shocked if the 4K camera appears in quantity (>1000 units) this year. In fact I wonder if BMD is more desperate for preorder money than credibility at this point, steadfastly refusing to learn from last year's lessons.

 

As Andrew said, you're wrongfully assuming they see any money at all from the pre-orders.

 

Anyway the RX100 soundly defeats the BMD Pocket in:

• Stabilization (very useful for a camera that will nearly always be shot handheld by definition)
• True pocketability (again, whose pocket can fit any MFT cam with a lens on it? The RX100 slips into virtually anything worthy of being called a "pocket") and action mountability (between the MFT size/weight and the GoPro)
• Ready-to-shoot cost (you can add a cheap grip and a magfilter adapter to your $650 RX100, your total RTS price will be at least double when adding a comparably usable lens to a BMD)
• Moire and Aliasing (OK the RX100 does have a noisy blue channel, but that's more fixable than awful rainbow moire)
• Product Maturity (we have yet to see the ugly details on the Pocket cam in practice, but prior experience from BMD's first-ever camera wasn't promising)
• Stills quality (20MP quite DSLR-like RAW stills on the RX100, 10 times the resolution of the BMD, plus tiltable built-in flash)
• HFR Frame rate (50 or 60p depending on your region, very useful for action and stabilization too)
• Automation (real-time autofocus and autoexposure, very useful again for run-n-gun, and it also offers full manual mode)

 

I own an RX100, it's a neat little camera, great pocket stills camera, but compressed video at 28mbps is hardly any competition against raw or even prores. You can get MFT stabilized lenses for the Pocket Camera too, and I'd get to use my 16mm cine lenses on it, which I can't at all with the RX100.

 

Again, I really like the RX100 for what it is, but it is also a first model, and it definitely has lots of room for improvement, and a cinema camera it is not, also every time I turn it on, I keep expecting the lens to get stuck or some other failure that would leave me hanging, since it feels so fragile. Being able to stick a full manual lens on a camera when shooting video is a huge plus.

 

Weeks away from release date, if they were really that behind as people seem to want them to be, it would be really bad for them to say otherwise in public as they just did, if anything I'd assume they'd be overly cautious this time, and if they do their job right, they will have a massive winner in their pocket camera.

[Andrew Reid]

Indeed, you must compare apples to apples.

 

RX100 is one tool, Pocket camera another. They have different uses entirely.

 

Image quality overall I feel will be better on the Pocket judging from the sample footage and the specs sheet. RX100 I liked but it is still the usual el cheapo electronica in terms of feel in comparison to film or raw.

[peederj]

In turn you're assuming the dealers don't send money to BMD to get their preorder allocations. I would be surprised if that's not the case, if an item is "hot" whoever's got stock in the early days will cash in handily (including on acce$$ories). So a manufacturer would be pretty foolish to allow dealers to take preorder money on their merch and not take any themselves.

 

Anyway codecs do matter but not as much as getting the shot in the first place, and the RX100 actually being in a pocket and shooting in 2 seconds is going to get a lot of spontaneous shots that the BMD Pocket being tucked away in a case somewhere and possibly not having the right lens on etc. is going to miss. Run the RX100 footage through Neat Video and while you don't have "captivating cinema" quality you don't have chopped liver (cellphone video) either. If quality matters that much you're going to need to get something more substantial than a BMoireD anyway and the time and gear to set it up properly.

[Bruno]

In turn you're assuming the dealers don't send money to BMD to get their preorder allocations. I would be surprised if that's not the case, if an item is "hot" whoever's got stock in the early days will cash in handily (including on acce$$ories). So a manufacturer would be pretty foolish to allow dealers to take preorder money on their merch and not take any themselves.

 

Anyway codecs do matter but not as much as getting the shot in the first place, and the RX100 actually being in a pocket and shooting in 2 seconds is going to get a lot of spontaneous shots that the BMD Pocket being tucked away in a case somewhere and possibly not having the right lens on etc. is going to miss. Run the RX100 footage through Neat Video and while you don't have "captivating cinema" quality you don't have chopped liver (cellphone video) either. If quality matters that much you're going to need to get something more substantial than a BMoireD anyway and the time and gear to set it up properly.

 

You speak like if the Pocket Camera was so much more expensive and so much bigger than an RX100. If you want to shoot quickly and are familiar with an equivalent zoom lenses, I don't see why it would take more time to start shooting on a Pocket camera than on an RX100, and as the name implies, you can have it in your pocket...

 

As for retail and pre-orders... the pre-order is between you and the reseller, it is not a commitment between you and BMD.

Each reseller is responsible with dealing with BMD, and obviously BMD will probably be supplying the biggest resellers first, so even if you were the first person on Earth to place a pre-order, if you did it with a smaller reseller and don't a get a camera when everyone else does, you have to deal with your reseller, not BMD.

 

Also, as with most products, BMD ship to resellers and only get paid when they actually sell them. This could be different with smaller resellers of course.

 

But seriously, if you're happy with the RX100, why do you care if they deliver on time or not? You're all set already! :)

[Andrew Reid]

In turn you're assuming the dealers don't send money to BMD to get their preorder allocations.

 

I'm not assuming I know that for sure they don't!

 

And yeah, Pocket camera is SOOOO difficult to use. Oh the pain of having to put a lens on a Micro Four Thirds camera, focus it, and press a record button.

 

It's enough to make me want to go back to 16mm and crank handles!

 

Modern technology huh!?

[peederj]

A manufacturer has to determine how large a production run is or risk an inventory glut or opportunity loss, they or their distributors have to secure shipping containers to send the batches overseas (for many Chinese goods, the cost of a shipping container is much of the cost of the item, and small distributors have to share containers, etc.), they have to pay a lot of those costs up front, and as a result they need to not only gauge demand from dealers they also negotiate bulk preorders from them giving the largest block purchases with advanced payment a significant discount. Many of the larger dealers effectively become distributors for their region, paying for the shipping container and then selling to other dealers in turn while taking a significant markup on the risk. They are all co-opetitors...they don't want the public to know any of this, but it's what goes on down in the boiler room.

 

A campaign to hype a product, overpromising both feature set and ship date, can get the pump primed for a small manufacturer that needs to get those shipping containers filled up and the allocations prepaid for. It can be the difference between profitability and total loss of R&D and inventory for a soon-obsoleted product like a digital camera.

 

But if they get enough of you to bite just on faith, they can get enough of you to rationalize buying into not only the product but the ecosystem, and its halo effect for the dealerships and distributors. $ucce$$! Meanwhile your movies probably won't be very much better but you can feel good about yourself and your new toy for a month or two.

 

Sorry to dim spirits! But enough people attack my camera models here that some balance ought to be applied. If the 4K cam is a pleasant and near-term surprise I will praise accordingly.

 

But I will not be pre-ordering anything from BMDelayed. The only thing I've pre-ordered recently was the 5D3, and though I have (and don't care about) the LCD light leak, that worked out fine in the end.  ^_^

[Andrew Reid]

So you're suggesting that CVP use our deposit money to pay for a giant shipping container.

 

Seems unnecessary for the kind of quantities the BMCC was shipped in, so your argument falls flat at the first hurdle.

 

Not that it is really an argument against the Pocket camera itself(!?!) which you haven't yet addressed.

 

I find it hard to understand why you hate ProRes and raw in a $999 camera so much. Not to mention one that offers full compatibility with beautiful c-mount / Bolex / 16mm glass and has an active Micro Four Thirds mount.

 

It's another creative tool. If you don't need it, feel free to stick to your C100 but don't bother us about it. We don't' care.

[peederj]

Well I know you "don't care!" but fyi I did not pre-order the C100. Instead B&H and Adorama had stock ready to ship on the launch date in November and I got mine the next day. So there would have been no benefit at all to preordering...the C100 is so feature-complete the only thing I added to it was a Ninja 2 for ProRes that was also ready to ship that day. I'm sure you will sniff and say "that's because no one wants a C100" but it has only increased in respect since then while the BMCC has increased in reports of dropped frames etc. The only ways I can see to compete with the C100 + Ninja 2 are RAW (5D3), 4K and HFR (FS700 + R5/C500 + Odyssey).

 

I similarly think BMD will have plenty of stock of the Pocket cam when it ships as it is just using a crop of the same old tiny low-res sensor of their first-ever camera. I've addressed my concerns about the BMD Pocket here and on other threads, for instance, just how much active MFT support will there be? A lot of the benefit of MFT lenses comes from in-camera correction of distortion and CA...I assume those will not be active for RAW, but will BMD be able to implement them for ProRes? On launch or ever? Or will they have a database and presets for Resolve to do it? Will lens metadata even be recorded by the BMD? Check photozone.de to see just how awful MFT lenses are in their uncorrected form. Of course, the Pocket will be merely a center crop of their FOV anyway, giving us a miniature wide-angle problem just as the EF mount BMCC suffered from.

 

I think a sane person committed to the MFT mount (a rare combination I'll admit) would wait till the BMD Pocket showed up and then test it out carefully against the GH2 and/or GH3 to see if it really was worth it in practice before committing $1000 to it. $1000 is not an impulse price point for MFT users I wouldn't think. And for those not stuck with MFT lenses, as I mentioned, RX100...

[Jacek]

I think a sane person committed to the MFT mount (a rare combination I'll admit) would wait till the BMD Pocket showed up and then test it out carefully against the GH2 and/or GH3 to see if it really was worth it in practice before committing $1000 to it. $1000 is not an impulse price point for MFT users I wouldn't think. And for those not stuck with MFT lenses, as I mentioned, RX100...

 

I agree in this regard. We don't know much about bmpcc yet and should judge it's quality after release and first tests - so yes, preordering is little risky.

 

But I think it has big potential and hope it's gonna succeed.

[nigelbb]

Not sure why the pessimism, 

 

I imagine that the pessimism is because they cannot even manage to ship the very first model BMCC that was supposed to ship over a year ago. This is still not available for purchase anywhere that I can find in the UK. You can order it but nowhere has stock.

[Bruno]

I similarly think BMD will have plenty of stock of the Pocket cam when it ships as it is just using a crop of the same old tiny low-res sensor of their first-ever camera

 

You keep assuming wrong things, according to them it's not the same sensor, it's a similar quality sensor, 16mm sized, which to me is an advantage. No one really know much about its real world performance, so there's no point discussing its strong and weak points at this time.

 

The days of huge batches of products and fitting distribution channels are kind of over. It's all about niches and customized products these days, and I'm sure they can ship 10 cameras or they can ship 10k as easily, there will be distribution companies sorting those details out and shipping them together with all kinds of other products.

 

I imagine that the pessimism is because they cannot even manage to ship the very first model BMCC that was supposed to ship over a year ago. This is still not available for purchase anywhere that I can find in the UK. You can order it but nowhere has stock.

 

Well, BMD knows that and has admitted that loads of times, and I would understand that when the products were announced, but when we're just a few weeks away and they're saying in public that everything's on track, then I'd rather believe they're not blatantly lying.

[Andrew Reid]

There's no compelling image quality reason for me to want to go to the C100 now I have raw on a full frame sensor, a very small package and affordable at that.

 

Pocket Camera is interesting as it adds Super 16mm to my palette. See recent post on c-mount lenses.

[peederj]

You keep assuming wrong things, according to them it's not the same sensor, it's a similar quality sensor, 16mm sized, which to me is an advantage. No one really know much about its real world performance, so there's no point discussing its strong and weak points at this time.

 

The days of huge batches of products and fitting distribution channels are kind of over. It's all about niches and customized products these days, and I'm sure they can ship 10 cameras or they can ship 10k as easily, there will be distribution companies sorting those details out and shipping them together with all kinds of other products.

 

 

Well, BMD knows that and has admitted that loads of times, and I would understand that when the products were announced, but when we're just a few weeks away and they're saying in public that everything's on track, then I'd rather believe they're not blatantly lying.

 

If you say no one knows, then how can you accuse me of assuming wrong things? They've made clear it's the same sensor, it has the same specs, it quacks like the same sensor just a crop, maybe packaged a bit differently internally...

 

And they are "blatantly lying" about the 4K cam's shipping schedule. Unless you take the "especially" wink as getting them off the hook for mischaracterizing forward-looking statements. A public company trading in USA would face Sarbanes-Oxley action if stating that one of their most important products would ship in July when it's clearly going to be more like January 2014 or later.

 

As for 16mm lenses, this is one of those cases where "bad is good" as long as "bad" is at least 30 years old. It's hard to argue with someone desiring a negative, but I'd figure the Digital Bolex would give the whole retro experience better than the BMD cam, and without rolling shutter (very important problem for handheld, and decidedly not a retro flaw).

[Shane Essary]

:rolleyes:

 

Seriously, dude, I get it.  You don't like it.  You don't like that people like it.  You don't like that people like things you don't like.  Move on.  I swear, it's like listening to some dude bitch about his girlfriend who broke up with him 10 years and can't just let it go.  Hell, it's worse than a home-built PC vs Mac debate.

[Bruno]

If you say no one knows, then how can you accuse me of assuming wrong things? They've made clear it's the same sensor, it has the same specs, it quacks like the same sensor just a crop, maybe packaged a bit differently internally...

 

It's a different sensor, different source, it's not a crop of the BMCC sensor, it performs the same as the older one, these were their words not mine, I wouldn't know.

 

And they are "blatantly lying" about the 4K cam's shipping schedule. Unless you take the "especially" wink as getting them off the hook for mischaracterizing forward-looking statements. A public company trading in USA would face Sarbanes-Oxley action if stating that one of their most important products would ship in July when it's clearly going to be more like January 2014 or later.

 

What is it that seems so impossible to you about the 4k camera? It's not like it's a whole new product that's in any way harder to build. Do you realize the 4k camera is EXACTLY the same camera as last year's BMCC, with a different sensor and upgraded firmware? After the problems they had with the first sensor, and with people changing their orders to the MFT mount version, I'm sure they have plenty of EF bodies waiting, those are your 4k cameras, they've been waiting since last year, why is it so impossible to meet their deadline now that they have a new sensor to use on them?

 

 

As for 16mm lenses, this is one of those cases where "bad is good" as long as "bad" is at least 30 years old.

 

You've clearly used quality 16mm cine lenses before, my bad.