Shooting with the Panasonic S1 in Barcelona

[thebrothersthre3]

42 minutes ago, webrunner5 said:

I am not really too sure all these company's are holding back. I think there is a physical limitation heat wise on these Hybrid bodies, and 4K 60p 10bit or better just isn't going to happen unless it is in a Cine type body with a heat sink from hell, or a fan, or both. I think all these manufacturers have known about the 30 minute limit coming off in the EU. They can't put out cameras that only go 12 minutes or whatever without taking a Lot of Heat, pun intended. They are just going to have to face the music and say small bodies just are not going to be able to meet the future needs for video. The PK4 and the Z Cam E2 have proved it really can't be done in a goofy A6000 body size.

Yeah that's certainly possible. Why haven't they pursued phase detect auto focus though? I really can't get my head around it. It seems like a large amount of buyers care about auto focus.

[mercer]

Phase detect takes processing power, which generates heat. 

[thebrothersthre3]

12 minutes ago, mercer said:

Phase detect takes processing power, which generates heat. 

I don't know all the other systems have it, including the XT3 which has internal 10 bit up to 4k 60p.

[webrunner5]

I am beginning to think there must be some kind of patents involved just like DPAF is?? I mean look at the PK4, why doesn't it have some kind of really decent AFC? I know it is a Cine camera but Canon has done pretty well using it in their Cine bodies. The days of crappy AF is somewhat in the past for video tech wise.

[thebrothersthre3]

11 minutes ago, webrunner5 said:

I am beginning to think there must be some kind of patents involved just like DPAF is?? I mean look at the PK4, why doesn't it have some kind of really decent AFC? I know it is a Cine camera but Canon has done pretty well using it in their Cine bodies. The days of crappy AF is somewhat in the past for video tech wise.

Black Magic is a little different for me as auto focus isn't as essential in the "cine" camera market. I would assume developing phase detect or any type of auto focus would be quite expensive for a small company like BM.

Sony and Canon are both doing it though. Seems like there is zero excuse for hybrids though especially with a huge company like Panasonic. It makes little sense to me but I guess they must know what they are doing. 

Hopefully they take the plunge with the GH6.....

[tomsemiterrific]

Andrew,

I'm assuming that there are pre-existing L-mount adapters for manual lenses, like the FD, Nikon, and other older lenses. 

Is that a good assumption? Or will this camera require an entirely new L mount adapter for pre-existing fully manual lenses?

[webrunner5]

1 hour ago, thebrothersthre3 said:

Black Magic is a little different for me as auto focus isn't as essential in the "cine" camera market. I would assume developing phase detect or any type of auto focus would be quite expensive for a small company like BM.

Sony and Canon are both doing it though. Seems like there is zero excuse for hybrids though especially with a huge company like Panasonic. It makes little sense to me but I guess they must know what they are doing. 

Hopefully they take the plunge with the GH6.....

I don't know, Cine to me has changed so much in the last 5 years. Other than really big productions with really skilled Glidecam operators most stuff was shot on tripods. Now there is a Lot of Gimbal shots, even just Raw Run n Gun. Motion seems to be in now. I don't see how having a Cine camera that does AF is a Bad thing. Sure Focus pullers are not going away tomorrow. But I think a lot of them might be looking for a different line of work down the road. There have been a lot of gains on face, eye tracking that can't be overlooked. it is only going to get better.

I think people now can accept screw ups in films, goofy movement. Nearly everyone now has taken video on their own with Smartphones, Cameras and experienced crazy movement in their own footage and sort of thinks, hey I guess it is normal LoL. I mean it can't look like a drunken sailor, but..

[jack jin]

15 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

They won't be, it will be capped at 150Mbit 10bit internal and 60p will be external only, as you can see from your WEX info.

NOO!!! c'mon can you please tell panasonic into releasing 400mbpbs all I codec for the v log updtae? that codec is so good for editing and color grading, it will be a shame if they don't include that codec. The 150mbps codec is going to be so compressed.

[thebrothersthre3]

2 hours ago, webrunner5 said:

I don't know, Cine to me has changed so much in the last 5 years. Other than really big productions with really skilled Glidecam operators most stuff was shot on tripods. Now there is a Lot of Gimbal shots, even just Raw Run n Gun. Motion seems to be in now. I don't see how having a Cine camera that does AF is a Bad thing. Sure Focus pullers are not going away tomorrow. But I think a lot of them might be looking for a different line of work down the road. There have been a lot of gains on face, eye tracking that can't be overlooked. it is only going to get better.

I think people now can accept screw ups in films, goofy movement. Nearly everyone now has taken video on their own with Smartphones, Cameras and experienced crazy movement in their own footage and sort of thinks, hey I guess it is normal LoL. I mean it can't look like a drunken sailor, but..

I completely agree, I think it would definitely be a good move for Black Magic to invest in it. Just seems absurd to me that Panasonic is not putting money into it. 

[kye]

4 hours ago, webrunner5 said:

I am not really too sure all these company's are holding back. I think there is a physical limitation heat wise on these Hybrid bodies, and 4K 60p 10bit or better just isn't going to happen unless it is in a Cine type body with a heat sink from hell, or a fan, or both. I think all these manufacturers have known about the 30 minute limit coming off in the EU. They can't put out cameras that only go 12 minutes or whatever without taking a Lot of Heat, pun intended. They are just going to have to face the music and say small bodies just are not going to be able to meet the future needs for video. The PK4 and the Z Cam E2 have proved it really can't be done in a goofy A6000 body size.

The XC10 had a fan and it was quite a small body.  but you're right that there are thermal limitations.  For Panasonic to warn about overheating really is a sign!

2 hours ago, webrunner5 said:

I don't know, Cine to me has changed so much in the last 5 years. Other than really big productions with really skilled Glidecam operators most stuff was shot on tripods. Now there is a Lot of Gimbal shots, even just Raw Run n Gun. Motion seems to be in now.

Yeah.

I suspect it's a mixture of things.  

I saw an interesting video talking about shooting portraits with slower wider angle lenses instead of more traditional fast portrait lenses, and there were some comments about how the wider and deeper-DOF look seems more authentic to consumers now, considering that what we see shot with mobile phones almost always lacks clever editing and what we see with "real cameras" is almost always heavily produced and edited, so consumers tend to believe the mobile phone look more.  This combined with the reality-tv style of shooting has changed the way we experience and interpret video content.

Gimbals or Run-n-gun can be faster to shoot with, better ISO performance and higher DR it would mean that you can shoot with less lights, and potentially light a whole room then just move setups within it instead of having to reset lighting for every setup.  Combined with face-detect AF (which isn't really there for cinema cameras but will be soon) would mean that you can move faster and miss less shots due to focus issues, and either de-skill your focus puller or eliminate them entirely, saving more money.

 

[ntblowz]

This guy did Video AF vs Nikon Z6

[BTM_Pix]

5 hours ago, tomsemiterrific said:

Andrew,

I'm assuming that there are pre-existing L-mount adapters for manual lenses, like the FD, Nikon, and other older lenses. 

Is that a good assumption? Or will this camera require an entirely new L mount adapter for pre-existing fully manual lenses?

Kipon do a pretty comprehensive range of adapters including Nikon F/G, Leica M/R, M42, C/Y, PL and even speedboosters for medium format lenses for it.

https://m.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_ssn=sh_photo_1&LH_PrefLoc=2&_sacat=0&_from=R40&_trksid=m4084.l1313&_nkw=Leica+sl

I have the Leica M adapter permanently on my SL and then use an M to EF adapter as an intermediate bridge to every other mount.

[jgharding]

I hope that in the next couple of years raw output will be standard on these cameras.

Internal raw is probably a bit much to hope for but someone will do that eventually I'm sure.

I still don't quite understand the whole "paid upgrade" model. What is it designed to achieve? A genuine question, I'm not being edgy.

[ssrdd]

Unless they offer C4k 60fps in full-frame with strong codec internally [we can still excuse autofocussing ability]!!!?

which they won't do it with even paid firmware because they have to protect EVA1. So basically these new cameras are new fancy toys in town not worth looking at them for the next 3 to 4 years. Having 60fps on the external recorder is not worth shifting from Awesome Z6 or A7iii. But it is worth shifting if S1 does it internally full-frame C4K 60fps. Till then its fancy toy another branch of Leica. 

[Vrzalík]

No 4K60fps DCI without crop, no fast and accurate PDAF like Sony or Canon, not good rolling shutter, no internal recording video footage into BlackMagic RAW or ProRes RAW! I am dissapointed. I have awaited more from Panasonic! I want these features in some upcoming hybrid mirrorles camera! 

[TrueIndigo]

Although Panasonic design continues on the unitarian theme, I must say these robust mag alloy bodies look very good to me, especially compared to say the P4K (if they were painted bright yellow, I'd half expect water to squirt out of the lens). For full frame weatherproof cameras they aren't much bigger than the MFT G9, and quite dwarfed by Olympus's recently announced E-M1X with the built-in battery grip. Unfortunately, for ultimate usability they stop short of featuring a fully articulated rear screen (even if you swear you'll never use it, it's great for protecting the screen when not in use), though I'd give them full marks for featuring the high (highest) resolution EVF unit.

Is the S1 too expensive at £2,199? I've previously thought it was a wrong move to charge near full frame prices for high end MFT cameras, though since the GH5S was the same body-only price (at £2,199 on release in January, 2018), I suppose I can't really argue against it now for an actual full frame mirrorless camera. If the promised firmware update doesn't deliver though, it may date these first FF Pany's quite badly in the next few years if you considered them as a long term investment.

Still no details about the rolling shutter performance from the VistaVision size sensor in video mode, compared to the fast readout we have become used to now in the MFT format. So much will depend on that video update to bring the S1 alive, otherwise the future GH6 may prove to be too much competition for less money. And perhaps a little embarrassing if the S1 doesn't get certified as a Tier 1 camera by the EBU, when the two-year-old GH5 is. 

[DBounce]

It’s just not an exciting camera. Not exciting enough that most would be purchasers will commit the $10k or so it would cost to acquire the body and lens set. I’ll pass. If they had finally put a real AF system... added a flippy screen... and no time limits? Perhaps I would bite. Sadly, it feels like Panasonic is finally taking a page from Canon and Sony’s playbook... they are protecting the GH line. Well protect away Panasonic... at the expense of the S-line.

[mirekti]

2 hours ago, TrueIndigo said:

Still no details about the rolling shutter performance

You can see it at the end here, it is the main reason I am holding off of FF for now. 

 

 

[thebrothersthre3]

Rolling shutter doesn't look worse than any other full frame out there.

[mirekti]

5 minutes ago, thebrothersthre3 said:

Rolling shutter doesn't look worse than any other full frame out there.

Exactly, all FFs are not there yet, and as I wrote above it is my main reason not to jump on the FF wagon.
I also truly hope Panasonic understands this (the reason why they call both S cameras photography oriented cameras), and will come out with even better GH6 in a year or two.