Panasonic GH6

[thebrothersthre3]

6 minutes ago, DBounce said:

I feel like ProRes Raw is a given externally. But internal raw is just not in the cards imo. Panasonic seem pretty committed to Contrast Detect AF; supplementing it with AI to make up for any deficiencies. Honestly, it might well prove to be successful.

Maybe not though it is possible internally or should be considering it uses less processing power than something like 10 bit internal. Seems like a good choice to one up the pocket 4k.

[DBounce]

1 minute ago, thebrothersthre3 said:

Maybe not though it is possible internally or should be considering it uses less processing power than something like 10 bit internal. Seems like a good choice to one up the pocket 4k.

Then you are really also talking about changing the recording media also. I don't think sd cards have bandwidth for internal raw. However, if they choose to go the Nikon/S-Line route and adopt a CFExpress compatible slot on the GH6... well, internal raw could easily be accommodated. And honestly, at that point I think few would choose a P4K over the GH6. There are certainly things that Panasonic could do... but they could do those things right now with the S1/R. Why they don't is open to debate.

Come to think of it... why did Panasonic put XQD/CFExpress in the S-Line? Are they, like Nikon, planning to offer internal raw recording via a firmware update? You just might be onto something.

[thebrothersthre3]

24 minutes ago, DBounce said:

Then you are really also talking about changing the recording media also. I don't think sd cards have bandwidth for internal raw. However, if they choose to go the Nikon/S-Line route and adopt a CFExpress compatible slot on the GH6... well, internal raw could easily be accommodated. And honestly, at that point I think few would choose a P4K over the GH6. There are certainly things that Panasonic could do... but they could do those things right now with the S1/R. Why they don't is open to debate.

Come to think of it... why did Panasonic put XQD/CFExpress in the S-Line? Are they, like Nikon, planning to offer internal raw recording via a firmware update? You just might be onto something.

Yeah it seems like a possibility. 

I forgot about the SD card issue. Though Canon cameras can record RAW to SD cards. I guess it depends on the type of RAW. 

[Trek of Joy]

Panasonic has painted themselves into a corner with the GH and S1 lines, video spec is class leading but its pretty clear by the reactions 4k60p with a paid upgrade to 10-bit internal isn't really moving the needle. Fuji offers a similar spec to the paid upgrade in the $1500 XT3, and we know it won't be long before all the pieces fall into place and we get those specs in an IBIS body - and it'll be sub $2000. The GH line is getting a lot of competition from all sides and the $2000+ market is a tough sell when you're not FF and not better than other lower priced options. Nikon is unlocking some powerhouse video with Atomos, Panasonic and the S1... meh.

DFD isn't competitive on the stills side. The demos of the new a9 object tracking that enhances the eye-AF - which is already vastly superior to anything Panasonic - are just amazing. DPAF masks a lot of Canon's other shortcomings and the EOS-R can serve as an addition to an existing kit. Asking people to invest many thousands to buy into a new system that doesn't piggyback on a massive user base - like CaNikon does - or offer substantially more than the competition is a big ask. We've seen the spec sheets for the next gen Sony sensors, lots will wait to see what the a7s3 brings to the table before taking the S1 plunge.

Plus Sony doesn't seem to be placing a high priority on 4/3 sensors, leaving them with the same sensor they've been using for years. The GH6 will need to raise the bar to give people a reason to upgrade. Global shutter?

Chris

[thebrothersthre3]

33 minutes ago, Trek of Joy said:

Panasonic has painted themselves into a corner with the GH and S1 lines, video spec is class leading but its pretty clear by the reactions 4k60p with a paid upgrade to 10-bit internal isn't really moving the needle. Fuji offers a similar spec to the paid upgrade in the $1500 XT3, and we know it won't be long before all the pieces fall into place and we get those specs in an IBIS body - and it'll be sub $2000. The GH line is getting a lot of competition from all sides and the $2000+ market is a tough sell when you're not FF and not better than other lower priced options. Nikon is unlocking some powerhouse video with Atomos, Panasonic and the S1... meh.

DFD isn't competitive on the stills side. The demos of the new a9 object tracking that enhances the eye-AF - which is already vastly superior to anything Panasonic - are just amazing. DPAF masks a lot of Canon's other shortcomings and the EOS-R can serve as an addition to an existing kit. Asking people to invest many thousands to buy into a new system that doesn't piggyback on a massive user base - like CaNikon does - or offer substantially more than the competition is a big ask. We've seen the spec sheets for the next gen Sony sensors, lots will wait to see what the a7s3 brings to the table before taking the S1 plunge.

Plus Sony doesn't seem to be placing a high priority on 4/3 sensors, leaving them with the same sensor they've been using for years. The GH6 will need to raise the bar to give people a reason to upgrade. Global shutter?

Chris

I don't know, I think AI could change everything. 

[Thpriest]

I think many forget one of the greatest advantages of the GH5, it can go on recording until it runs out of cards or power. I have filmed whole day conferences with the GH5 (using the power cable). No other hybrid camera can do that (other than my GX85 bought from Hong Kong with no time limit )

I wish they were cheaper though! 1500€ for a GH5/GH5s/GH6 would be great.

[thebrothersthre3]

2 minutes ago, Thpriest said:

I think many forget one of the greatest advantages of the GH5, it can go on recording until it runs out of cards or power. I have filmed whole day conferences with the GH5 (using the power cable). No other hybrid camera can do that (other than my GX85 bought from Hong Kong with no time limit )

Doesn't the S1 have no time limit in 4k as long as its not 60fps. 

[Thpriest]

7 minutes ago, thebrothersthre3 said:

Doesn't the S1 have no time limit in 4k as long as its not 60fps. 

That has yet to be tested! I can tell you that the GH5 just keeps on going....the GX85 as well. The only time it failed (GX85) was when it was around 41ºC and a direct reflection of light hit it without me noticing. Like putting a magnifying glass on it! Still managed about 30mins before shutting down. It was roasting!!!

[sanveer]

3 hours ago, DBounce said:

Come to think of it... why did Panasonic put XQD/CFExpress in the S-Line? Are they, like Nikon, planning to offer internal raw recording via a firmware update? You just might be onto something.

Doesn't RAW cause overheating. And the S1 and S1R already have time limits (30 mins for 4k 30p) to combat (prospective) overheating issues. The 4k 4-2-2 VLog is already something that may be External, so having internal RAW seems unlikely. XQD may be an alternative to CFast, but they are nowhere near the fastest cards available. Maybe Panasonic didn't wanna wait and the buffer could be higher with XQD Xards. 

 

3 hours ago, DBounce said:

Then you are really also talking about changing the recording media also. I don't think sd cards have bandwidth for internal raw. 

Panasonic needs to collaborate with Samsung and create TINY SSDs like on Atomos Ninja 5". It can be tiny, much cheaper that CFast and XQD per Gb and much faster. If they innovate well they could have SSDs the size of CFast cards, and ones that fit into slots of the same size too. Or better still, they could just get CFexpress cards with blistering read/write speeds of 1,400MB/s and 1,000MB/s. That should be more than sufficient for internal RAW (which I doubt any ILC lineup apart from the GH series will get). 

[DBounce]

2 minutes ago, sanveer said:

Doesn't RAW cause overheating. And the S1 and S1R already have time limits (30 mins for 4k 30p) to combat (prospective) overheating issues. The 4k 4-2-2 VLog is already something that may be External, so having internal RAW seems unlikely. XQD may be an alternative to CFast, but they are nowhere near the fastest cards available. Maybe Panasonic didn't wanna wait and the buffer could be higher with XQD Xards. 

 

Panasonic needs to collaborate with Samsung and create TINY SSDs like on Atomos Ninja 5". It can be tiny, much cheaper that CFast and XQD per Gb and much faster. If they innovate well they could have SSDs the size of CFast cards, and ones that fit into slots of the same size too. Or better still, they could just get CFexpress cards with blistering read/write speeds of 1,400MB/s and 1,000MB/s. That should be more than sufficient for internal RAW (which I doubt any ILC lineup apart from the GH series will get). 

The card slot for XQD is identical to CFExpress. The XQD card slot can be updated via firmware and it will support CFExpress with those blistering read/write speeds. I don't think raw is the issue. By right, raw should be less processor intensive as it is written without processing and in most cases only minimal compression. The only bottleneck is the recording media.

[newfoundmass]

I just hope that whatever Card slots they use that they're both the same. Not a fan of one being SD and the other being XQD. I'd also absolutely LOVE being able to record to an SSD. That'd make my life a million times easier when I'm shooting long events. 

[liork]

2 hours ago, sanveer said:

Or better still, they could just get CFexpress cards with blistering read/write speeds of 1,400MB/s and 1,000MB/s.

Well, the Nikon Z is getting CFexpress support through firmware upgrade.

[kye]

19 hours ago, newfoundmass said:

I'd be surprised if the GH6 isn't announced by early next year. I think the S1 factors very little in Panasonic's GH plans. I'm guessing we won't see a video focused full frame camera announced from Panasonic until mid to late 2020 at the earliest. 

The GH line is their bread and butter right now, as it should be. It'd make no sense for them to prioritize the S series over the GH series until there's reason to. 

I think they're separate too.  Canon proves that you can have FF MILC without great video and still be successful.

In a way many other companies are limiting video quality on their FF cameras and keeping video quality for their cine-lines.  If you think of Panasonic as having two cine lines - the cine EVA and the GH series, then it kind of makes sense.

10 hours ago, DBounce said:

Then you are really also talking about changing the recording media also. I don't think sd cards have bandwidth for internal raw. However, if they choose to go the Nikon/S-Line route and adopt a CFExpress compatible slot on the GH6... well, internal raw could easily be accommodated. And honestly, at that point I think few would choose a P4K over the GH6. There are certainly things that Panasonic could do... but they could do those things right now with the S1/R. Why they don't is open to debate.

Come to think of it... why did Panasonic put XQD/CFExpress in the S-Line? Are they, like Nikon, planning to offer internal raw recording via a firmware update? You just might be onto something.

In my mind the GH5 and P4K are completely different cameras because the GH5 has IBIS and is rock solid and the P4K doesn't have IBIS and isn't rock solid.  The GH5S doesn't have IBIS but is rock solid.  Of course, the P4K also has RAW/Prores, but that's not a deal-breaker for me as the 10-bit GH5 files are good enough (hell, they're great, what am I saying!).

Anyway, the GH6 will be rock solid and if it had IBIS and RAW then that would be spectacular, and we haven't mentioned 8K yet....

They could even make it a hybrid where it would do up to 4K RAW and 8K in H265, that would sure be something!

9 hours ago, thebrothersthre3 said:

I don't know, I think AI could change everything. 

I think AF is a funny topic that people don't really talk about sensibly / consistently / somethingly.  I've been an AF person for a long time because I wanted the camera to do it for me, and have only recently changed to MF.  Dear mother do you get kick-back on these forums when you say you need AF for your shooting style...  all the "they don't use it in Hollywood" " you're not a real film-maker unless you use MF" "growing up I only ate gravel" type comments all get trotted out.

I think our views of AF still haven't stabilised - the same people would criticise AF reliance and then turn around and criticise the GH5 for not having good AF.

If you want a good argument for not needing AF then here it is...  the GH5.  Hopeless as shit for AF, sells bucketloads, reputation as industry standard workhorse.

By the time we get around to accepting AF (and having some consistency in our opinions) I think AI and processing power may well have solved it.  Panasonic might turn out to have made the smart move by getting their AI sorted out and when it finally starts delivering the others may be years behind.  Sure, Canon might focus on the face, but film-making isn't always about faces.

5 hours ago, newfoundmass said:

I just hope that whatever Card slots they use that they're both the same. Not a fan of one being SD and the other being XQD. I'd also absolutely LOVE being able to record to an SSD. That'd make my life a million times easier when I'm shooting long events. 

I also think that would be great.  Not only would it mean inexpensive media, huge speeds, and less internal heating, but it would be cheap and small to implement in the camera body.  Anyone who has seen the size of the SD and CFast slot in the XC10 knows that those things take up quite a bit of space in a small camera body.

[IronFilm]

15 hours ago, ac6000cw said:

....or the G9 recently (with all the discounting and cashbacks over the Dec/Jan period we had in UK at least).

 

In my eyes the G9 was a complete break from the past history of the G series. 

The G series has traditionally been a lower priced option to the GH flagship

While the G9 was positioned as another equal flagship to the GH series, but photography focused instead of for filmmakers. 

Thus a G85 successor in the theme of the traditional G series line up is still lacking

[newfoundmass]

1 hour ago, IronFilm said:

In my eyes the G9 was a complete break from the past history of the G series. 

The G series has traditionally been a lower priced option to the GH flagship

While the G9 was positioned as another equal flagship to the GH series, but photography focused instead of for filmmakers. 

Thus a G85 successor in the theme of the traditional G series line up is still lacking

In some ways the G85 doesn't need a successor yet. It'd be nice, obviously, but it's still such a great budget camera even today and I still recommend it to people on a budget. It still kinda blows my mind that they released such a feature rich camera so shortly before launching the GH5. Panasonic had a lot of swagger from 2014 to 2017!

[sanveer]

10 hours ago, DBounce said:

The card slot for XQD is identical to CFExpress. The XQD card slot can be updated via firmware and it will support CFExpress with those blistering read/write speeds. I don't think raw is the issue. By right, raw should be less processor intensive as it is written without processing and in most cases only minimal compression. The only bottleneck is the recording media.

 

8 hours ago, liork said:

Well, the Nikon Z is getting CFexpress support through firmware upgrade.

I realised that the CFExpress and XQD had identical slots and almost identical/ identical connections, I also know the CFExpress guys were in talks with Sony and Nikon for having compatibility transitions ironed out, but I didn't realised that it already happened. I guess it's a win win for everyone then. 

[kye]

2 hours ago, newfoundmass said:

In some ways the G85 doesn't need a successor yet. It'd be nice, obviously, but it's still such a great budget camera even today and I still recommend it to people on a budget. It still kinda blows my mind that they released such a feature rich camera so shortly before launching the GH5. Panasonic had a lot of swagger from 2014 to 2017!

Let's hope they still do!

[thebrothersthre3]

I think Panasonic would sell even better with a phase detect system, but Sony would also sell better with more flip screen cameras. 

The lack of attention paid to vloggers is odd to me. Apparently 1 in every 4 kids wants to be a youtuber now. Seems like a big market. I guess Canon pays attention to that market. 

Hopefully AI will go places fast. That way Canon can no longer lead the AF market with their exclusive auto focus system. Z cam is doing interesting things with AI as well. 

[kye]

8 hours ago, thebrothersthre3 said:

Apparently 1 in every 4 kids wants to be a youtuber now. Seems like a big market.

Lots of kids also want to be astronauts or firemen but sales of space-suits and fire-axes isn't through the roof, I suspect due to the same problem.

Both my kids have made a dozen or so YT videos each, plus who-knows how many other videos on Musically/TikTok etc, and with my entire camera collection the only thing they've ever wanted to borrow was my tripod - they just use their phones.  I gave my daughter my Rode VideoMic Me as her phone still has a headphone port and mine doesn't but I'm not sure if she ended up using it much.  My daughter asked about using one of my cameras once, and I didn't even get through explaining that it records to an SD card, then you get an SD card reader and plug it into your computer, and then...  <screws up face> "nah, I'll just use my phone".  She uses airdrop.

But what about video quality you ask?  They care about content, editing, and making them funny.  They don't even have the YT flippy screen problem because they use the selfie camera not the much better quality rear one.  The screen of a phone kills almost any camera screen and it's built in.  Kids are like professional film-makers - they want to get from idea to pay-off in as quick a time as possible.  

You'd be forgiven for thinking that vloggers want flippy screens for their DSLR / MILC cameras but I'd say the vast vast majority of them are using 'lesser' cameras.  

YouTubers are like online marketing people - the internet makes it look like the world is full of them, but in reality the world is run by other people doing useful things instead of just endlessly talking about themselves online.  Of course, we probably watch the camera vloggers who talk about cameras much more than the fashion/food/lifestyle vloggers who talk about everything else, and the camera guys are telling you that you need a 1DXII and cinematic b-roll partly to get you to get you to click the affiliate links in the description.

Besides, quality from a phone can be just great...

My advice to my daughter goes something like "your phone is fine, but use a shitload of light" and to use the microphone I gave her because it will make the sound less like she's recording in a bathroom.  She's 15 BTW, so no dummy.  If these things mattered to her then she'd be all over it by this age, but they just don't.

[Video Hummus]

I would hope Panasonic would focus on:

Increased DR - At least 2 extra stops
Thick internal codecs - H265 and a high bitrate ALL-I
External RAW output
Dual ISO - Improved lowlight performance over GH5
Improved manual focus features
Improved autofocus (because everybody wants it and whines about it)

 

Don't care much about 8K.