Panasonic GH6

[kye]

1 hour ago, newfoundmass said:

It appears Sony has a new M43 sensor that is 30+MP and is capable of 8K. 43Rumors lists it as an FT5 on their scale:

"At the beginning of November I got solid info that Sony will launch one new MFT sensor in 2021. I now got the confirmation this sensor will be able to record 8K video and have a 30+MP resolution. Now I have little doubt this is the sensor that Panasonic will use on the GH6."

I really hope it's not just a GH5 with 8K, which I won't need for years and years. It's gonna be hard to get me to upgrade right away no matter what they release but just the ability to do 8K or even 4K 120p isn't going to be enough. For me this release is as much about figuring out if M43 is worth sticking with for at least the next 5 years or if I should plan to move to Sony or Fuji sooner rather than later. As much as I love what I've seen from their full frame cameras, I am very worried about Panasonic long term if they are going to remain behind on things like AF even if I really don't need those features myself. Regardless of what I want or need, the market has spoken and you need to meet their expectations if you plan to stick around. 

I always thought that Panasonic had three options:

• Treat the GH line like a pony and teach it more tricks, by going 8K / RAW / <spec goes here> ....   this is the path of the R5
• Treat the GH line like a 'workhorse' and improve the things that currently get in the way .... this is the path of the A7S3
• Treat the GH line like it's dying and do a half-assed update that can be cheaply manufactured hoping enough people will buy one
• No GH6

Personally I don't mind if it goes 8K, because the GH5 is 5K and I shoot 1080, so a 2.5x oversampling to a 4x oversampling isn't a large difference.  A new sensor means we'll also get new colour science and that's one of the biggest weaknesses of the GH5 IMHO.

A new sensor might mean a new AF technology, but who knows.  Dual ISO could be on the table too, which would be fantastic.

Sadly, the Panasonic way seems to be releasing the camera with only crappy codecs and adding the good ones later through firmware.  This means that the hype surrounding high bitrate and bitdepth modes don't get included on launch and firmware updates don't get the hype, and I wouldn't buy it until it has what I need, unlike the S5 which might never get those upgrades.

Still, it would be a shot in the arm for the MFT system and would protect peoples investment in lenses and accessories for some time, which seems to have been a concern for some.

Does anyone have any info on the sensor? a @androidlad perhaps? 

[Towd]

Found this IMX492LQJ poking around Sony's website.

https://www.sony-semicon.co.jp/products/common/pdf/IMX492LLJ_LQJ_Flyer.pdf

It's a multi-aspect sensor that does 8k video and has an all pixel readout of 8432x5680.   The 17:9 and 4:3 modes are subsets of this.  I think it has a global shutter mode too.

Could be an very interesting chip for the next generation of M43 cameras.  I used to not care so much about 8k video, but considering a GH6 will probably need to remain competitive for a 5 year or more product cycle, it is probably something Panasonic should think about as it will be competing with full frame cameras and cell phones that already offer 8k.  I'd personally probably shoot 99% of the time in some 4k 10 bit VLOG mode, but having the option of going to 8k video capture for special situations could be ideal.

Honestly, if this offers great (S1 like) color science and a full 10 bit VLOG in 4:2:2, I could be happy with this camera for 5-10 years.

Fun times!  I'm still hopeful for the future of M43 now that we've had a round of full frame camera releases from all the major manufacturers.

[TomTheDP]

I might be interested though its hard to want anything less than the S1 in terms of dynamic range. It's got me spoiled. Global shutter would be very interesting. 

[hoodlum]

2 hours ago, Towd said:

Found this IMX492LQJ poking around Sony's website.

https://www.sony-semicon.co.jp/products/common/pdf/IMX492LLJ_LQJ_Flyer.pdf

It's a multi-aspect sensor that does 8k video and has an all pixel readout of 8432x5680.   The 17:9 and 4:3 modes are subsets of this.  I think it has a global shutter mode too.

Could be an very interesting chip for the next generation of M43 cameras.  I used to not care so much about 8k video, but considering a GH6 will probably need to remain competitive for a 5 year or more product cycle, it is probably something Panasonic should think about as it will be competing with full frame cameras and cell phones that already offer 8k.  I'd personally probably shoot 99% of the time in some 4k 10 bit VLOG mode, but having the option of going to 8k video capture for special situations could be ideal.

Honestly, if this offers great (S1 like) color science and a full 10 bit VLOG in 4:2:2, I could be happy with this camera for 5-10 years.

Fun times!  I'm still hopeful for the future of M43 now that we've had a round of full frame camera releases from all the major manufacturers.

I would prefer this sensor that has much faster sensor readout. 
 

[Towd]

25 minutes ago, hoodlum said:

I would prefer this sensor that has much faster sensor readout. 
 

That would be a great option if it is real.  I can't find it on Sony's site though.  Do you have a link?

[hoodlum]

1 hour ago, Towd said:

That would be a great option if it is real.  I can't find it on Sony's site though.  Do you have a link?

No link. Androidlad provided this image a year ago in another thread. 

[newfoundmass]

It's not that I'm opposed to 8K, I just really hope it's more than a GH5 but with 8K. I just don't think that's enough to ensure that M43 will be viable (outside of Japan anyway, where apparently it was the most popular mount last year) moving forward. 

Most of us are happy with our M43 gear. That really isn't the issue. It's the long term health of the system that I'm worried about. The reality is that even a lot of the YouTubers that were M43 users have moved on to Sony, Canon or Fuji. Is that the end of the world? No, but it's a bad sign and whether we like it or not those YouTubers influence people's purchasing decisions. If they aren't selling enough cameras that's bad for all of us that are heavily invested in the system. That might not factor into everyone's decision making, but the overall health of the system definitely matters to me given the extent I'm invested in it. 

[SteveV4D]

I've owned every GH since the GH2, literally preordering and getting it on release.  Will this be the same with the GH6, maybe not.  The camera World has changed since the GH5 came out.  I'm less sold on MFT than I was back then.  The GH6 will need to be more than the GH5 but with 8K to make it worth it to me.  

What will sell it...  solid AF.. seriously Panasonic..  thats the thing everyone criticises your cameras for.  We have been nagging you since you began making these cameras.  

I'd also like either ProRes recording or even better some form of internal RAW.  If the R5 can do this for fullframe in a tiny body, then no reason the GH6 couldn't.  

But really, a great and accurate AF mixed with say 8K if I wanted it and 120fps 4K would be enough for me to upgrade.  

[IronFilm]

12 hours ago, newfoundmass said:

It appears Sony has a new M43 sensor that is 30+MP and is capable of 8K. 43Rumors lists it as an FT5 on their scale:

"At the beginning of November I got solid info that Sony will launch one new MFT sensor in 2021. I now got the confirmation this sensor will be able to record 8K video and have a 30+MP resolution. Now I have little doubt this is the sensor that Panasonic will use on the GH6."

I really hope it's not just a GH5 with 8K, which I won't need for years and years. It's gonna be hard to get me to upgrade right away no matter what they release but just the ability to do 8K or even 4K 120p isn't going to be enough. For me this release is as much about figuring out if M43 is worth sticking with for at least the next 5 years or if I should plan to move to Sony or Fuji sooner rather than later. As much as I love what I've seen from their full frame cameras, I am very worried about Panasonic long term if they are going to remain behind on things like AF even if I really don't need those features myself. Regardless of what I want or need, the market has spoken and you need to meet their expectations if you plan to stick around. 

I've also got no great interest in 8K

Fingers crossed for an affordable GH6S 4K camera?

[Towd]

4 hours ago, hoodlum said:

No link. Androidlad provided this image a year ago in another thread. 

Ahhh, well it might end up being real which would be awesome.  I'm certainly not against an insane 120 fps at that resolution, and it would just open up more shooting possibilities.

I know a lot of this has been posted as rumors a while back, but just seeing that there are new m43 sensors officially coming out of Sony makes me hopeful that we have not seen the end of m43.  It's still my favorite format due to size and flexibility.  So--- fingers crossed!

[Towd]

4 hours ago, newfoundmass said:

Most of us are happy with our M43 gear. That really isn't the issue. It's the long term health of the system that I'm worried about.

Yeah, I feel the same, but seeing some new m43 sensors on Sony's website makes me think someone may pick it up and run with it.  It is still my favorite system for casual shooting and travel photography.  I've been lurking in the medium format thread and I think @kye may be on to something regarding a medium format system as a supplement to m43.  If money becomes no object for me at some point, I could see picking up a large format system for messing around with once in a while for that unique look.  But 90% of the time, I'd still just want to grab a trusty and compact m43 camera and have fun.  Hopefully, capitalism and the free market (or Panasonic) will take care of us diehards.  😎

[MrSMW]

6 hours ago, SteveV4D said:

But really, a great and accurate AF mixed with say 8K if I wanted it and 120fps 4K would be enough for me to upgrade.

I can't see a scenario where I would ever be shooting 8k but if it means 120fps 4k and decent AF, that will do me.

[XNYC]

8K and crop to 4K would be great for wildlife, extending the reach even further. Panleica 100-400 instantly becomes 200-800.

Maybe better IBIS another improvement? I currently keep my GH5 for wildlife only.  S1H for most everything else. 

[hoodlum]

52 minutes ago, XNYC said:

8K and crop to 4K would be great for wildlife, extending the reach even further. Panleica 100-400 instantly becomes 200-800.

Maybe better IBIS another improvement? I currently keep my GH5 for wildlife only.  S1H for most everything else. 

IBIS would become more challenging with smaller pixels.  But m43 does have an advantage over FF with a smaller sensor to move around.

[Origami101]

Would the IMX 492 even be suitable for the GH6? It’s got a max readout speed of 31fps, which wouldn’t be fast enough to adequately drive DFD autofocus. 

Perhaps it can readout faster at lower resolutions; for video, 6k, 4K, etc.; for stills, selective sub-sampling that’s higher than the viewfinder resolution, which is really all you need before capturing the frame. 

[SteveV4D]

4 hours ago, MrSMW said:

I can't see a scenario where I would ever be shooting 8k but if it means 120fps 4k and decent AF, that will do me.

Nor me, but it would be fun to play with at least.  8K downsampled to 4K internally in the camera would be nice.  

I think I'd add bigger lowlight.  But then that's a given really.  Oh and dual ISO and DCI in all modes which the GH5s can do, but the GH5 can't.  The GH5s has a wider sensor than the GH5, which I'd like on the GH6, but have IBIS available too.

[hoodlum]

19 minutes ago, Origami101 said:

Would the IMX 492 even be suitable for the GH6? It’s got a max readout speed of 31fps, which wouldn’t be fast enough to adequately drive DFD autofocus. 

Perhaps it can readout faster at lower resolutions; for video, 6k, 4K, etc.; for stills, selective sub-sampling that’s higher than the viewfinder resolution, which is really all you need before capturing the frame. 

The IMX492 would be a downgrade from the existing sensor in the GH5.  We would need at least the same or a faster sensor readout speed. 

[TomTheDP]

If it can deliver 8ms rolling shutter and a solid 10 bit 4k 120p that has dynamic range and a noise floor similar to the 24p that would be a buy for me. 8k would be a plus too as long as it also has a nice downsampled 4k. 

[MurtlandPhoto]

Micro four thirds is in a much worse place than it was when the GH5 first came out. We all know how evolutionary, if not revolutionary, it was at launch: internal 10 bit 422 up to 4K30, 8 bit 420 at 4K60, IBIS, flip screen, etc. etc. We were willing to overlook its faults (AF mostly) because it was amazing in so many ways. The unfortunate truth is that other camera systems have completely caught up and overtaken the GH5. Even Panasonic's own full frame S5 presents a way better value proposition. As @newfoundmass highlighted above, the highly influential Youtube segment has largely stepped away from the GH5. I think it will take a complete showstopper camera in order to bring them back. My personal wishlist that I think will do the job:

6K30p and 4K120p 10bit 422 internally, ProRes Raw or BRAW externally, IBIS, Full V-Log, Dual native ISO, GREAT AF, similar build/ergonomics to GH5 but with better battery life.

Additionally, I think they need a few tricks up their sleeves: webcam functionality through USB C, wireless monitor through mobile app, fancy flip screen from S1H.

[kye]

18 hours ago, newfoundmass said:

It's not that I'm opposed to 8K, I just really hope it's more than a GH5 but with 8K. I just don't think that's enough to ensure that M43 will be viable (outside of Japan anyway, where apparently it was the most popular mount last year) moving forward. 

I don't think we'd only get 8K.

Any 8K sensor would mean an update to the colour science, which Panasonic has definitely improved in other cameras since the GH5 and I think is one of the GH5s main weaknesses.

9 hours ago, MrSMW said:

I can't see a scenario where I would ever be shooting 8k but if it means 120fps 4k and decent AF, that will do me.

4K120 would be pretty good and would also be a bit headline grabbing which is cool too.

Depending on the data rates and the imaging pipeline they put in there, I wonder if it could do 8K60?

4 hours ago, SteveV4D said:

Nor me, but it would be fun to play with at least.  8K downsampled to 4K internally in the camera would be nice.  

I think I'd add bigger lowlight.  But then that's a given really.  Oh and dual ISO and DCI in all modes which the GH5s can do, but the GH5 can't.  The GH5s has a wider sensor than the GH5, which I'd like on the GH6, but have IBIS available too.

8K downsampling would be cool.  It also adds the possibility of a 6K mode that's also downsampled, which would be pretty newsworthy.  I'm not sure how many of the 6K cameras are oversampling, and back in the day there was a significant IQ bump from oversampling rather than just doing a straight pixel readout.

2 hours ago, MurtlandPhoto said:

Micro four thirds is in a much worse place than it was when the GH5 first came out. We all know how evolutionary, if not revolutionary, it was at launch: internal 10 bit 422 up to 4K30, 8 bit 420 at 4K60, IBIS, flip screen, etc. etc. We were willing to overlook its faults (AF mostly) because it was amazing in so many ways. The unfortunate truth is that other camera systems have completely caught up and overtaken the GH5. Even Panasonic's own full frame S5 presents a way better value proposition. As @newfoundmass highlighted above, the highly influential Youtube segment has largely stepped away from the GH5. I think it will take a complete showstopper camera in order to bring them back. My personal wishlist that I think will do the job:

6K30p and 4K120p 10bit 422 internally, ProRes Raw or BRAW externally, IBIS, Full V-Log, Dual native ISO, GREAT AF, similar build/ergonomics to GH5 but with better battery life.

Additionally, I think they need a few tricks up their sleeves: webcam functionality through USB C, wireless monitor through mobile app, fancy flip screen from S1H.

At this point I'm not sure what it would take to be revolutionary.  If you take the R5 and A7S3 and imagine something that would blow them out of the water and having people coming back to MFT, then what would it have to be?

Not only don't I think it's possible to deliver that, but I'm not even sure that if it did that it would connect with the market.  Imagine that it had a ridiculous configuration like 16K, 8K60, 4K240, 2K600, internal RAW, triple native ISO, eyelash AF for people animals insects and amoeba, 12-bit h266 444, and 8 hour battery life...  who would sell their R5 or A7S3?  
It's still MFT in a FF hype world, would people really be abandoning FF because "I need 16K" or "My clients require 4K240" or "I have to film at f11 at night under a new moon with no lights"?

My inspiration for the GH6 was for it to be a solid upgrade but keep it's workhorse status.  We're all about those specs here, but other GH5 forums I am part of online are much more focused on the work and how to get good results with it.  Many shoot in 1080p (gasp!) because they never once had a client ask for 4K, etc etc.  I suspect those people would think that FF was an advantage in the sensor size that was more valuable than 2K600 or whatever.

Which I guess is a way of saying that beyond a certain point people don't care about specs when they're 'good enough' and I think that the pack is probably good enough for most, so going further doesn't really help much, and what people will pay for is an upgrade that is meaningful, which leads me to....

13 hours ago, Towd said:

I've been lurking in the medium format thread and I think @kye may be on to something regarding a medium format system as a supplement to m43.  If money becomes no object for me at some point, I could see picking up a large format system for messing around with once in a while for that unique look. 

My logic for that thread was that now we're about to get a $6K medium format camera that is 'good enough' for most people (either internally or with the 4K Prores RAW) we can get a massive increase in sensor size, which is something more valuable to me than 4k120 or 8K.  

In a sense, my issues with the GH5 are minor enough that even if they fixed everything wrong with it the upgrade probably wouldn't be worth it for me.

I've recently worked out that the difference between videographers and film-makers is that videographers are having to please many future clients who may demand 4K or request radical changes in post so the priority is to be as flexible as possible, thus buying a camera with high resolution and frame rates and sharp lenses.  Film-makers only have to please one client at a time, and if there are particular requirements they can hire equipment without losing money, and if they have a good enough reputation or are independent then they only have to please themselves.
As someone who only shoots my own projects, this means that my camera purchase only has to please me and I'm not interested in 'what-if' questions about pleasing others.  I seriously doubt that anyone is buying the A7S3 because they have their own needs for 600Mbps 4K ALL-I or 4K120 422 10-bit.  Rather I think they will be buying these cameras because they don't know what future projects require and want to cover their bases and never have to turn down work.